Donegal Forum

Championship 2020

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Replying To Ulsterchamps_32:  "I was thinking about this defeat more.

Mickey Graham does has something about him though not sure Cavan folks thought that after half a Roscommon team beat them and relegated them. They did great to catch monaghan though realistically should have pushed up sooner in the second half. They were horrible against a mediocre antrim team and didn't show up in the first half against down. They really did discover something in the second half of that game and they brought this to the whole match against donegal. Is this the start of something for them or the end of something I don't know though absolute hats off to them for winning on Sunday.
I don't think there is a county, that despite its limited success recently, is as passionate about gaelic football. They've always been respectful and supportive of donegal and were genuinely delighted for us when we won our all irelands. Mick higgins, the cavan legend also helped Brian mceniff coach donegal to its first all ulster in 1972. I warm to cavan though I'm still bloody annoyed about losing to them on Sunday.

Some of posts over the last few days have been very interesting, some not so much and I really don't like the blame the manager for everything attitude.

Donegal have had no issue beating cavan over the last decade. 2011 and 2012 were both handy wins as were 2018 and 2019. Cavan didn't really even compete in these matches never mind get close to winning and in their heart of hearts did donegal just believe they would just have to show up and beat them.

-Folks have been praising neil mcgee for bringing the game to cavan in the second half and he did but sure would Cavan not be delighted to seem carrying the ball in the forward line. He's never going to kick a point and as long as they cover the players who can kick points sure let him have the ball all day.
-Patton will know he had to try and catch that ball. He was going backwards when the ball was kicked in and you just can't punch in that situation.
- In relation to the point about the likes of leo mcloone. Its not necessarily that Leo should definitely still be still on the panel but it's to have a player like that. Another example is Ryan Bradley. He was an ulster championship player. In a tight tough match he was physically able to break a tackle and kick a point. He didn't seem to have the legs for croke park but my was he important in ulster. We probably could look to mcfadden to do this but was he hindered from doing so by covering at the back. It was kind of the reason for mentioning Carroll in a previous post but he might just not be interested or suited to intercounty commitment. Maybe langan and Jason mcgee could add this little bit of extra power to help them add this to their game.
- in relation to the psychological weakness, far to much focus on it for me. We got beat, every team bar dublin ends up getting beat. Learn from it, maybe have a good row to clear the air and set expectations, continue to prepare correctly, do your job and jdi the next time (or jfdi for a bit of extra dressing room emphasis)."
Ulster some valid thought out points as per. I completely agree regarding the blaming the management. It is an easy excuse to make the players themselves have as just as much responsibility. For example like you say Patton had to do better. Regarding Carroll he is a good player but certainly not the answer to all our problems. The points about Michael Langan and Jason McGee. They are still young lads so maybe have the potential to develop more of an edge. However Michael Langan whom I think is a supremely talented player got into positions to hit what were not hard scores but missed which was all down to pressure. Which leads onto your point about mental weakness. We have been in a position to qualify for an All Ireland semi final the last 3 years been one game away and lost each time. Those are clutch games and each time we failed. The focus is right in my view.

panamasam (Australia) - Posts: 2492 - 25/11/2020 12:04:17    2315147

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Replying To panamasam:  "I wouldn't even bother Joe just playing the blame game without really offering anything of substance. Again pure nonsense like the S & C not up to scratch then Rochford etc....."
Well let's not mention that Cavan played with a man less for more than a quarter of the game. And looked better conditioned, fresher and fitter.

Or the fact that this was Cavan's sixth weekend on the bounce which included an extra time tussle with Monaghan. But finished fresher and fitter on Sunday.

But like you said, not much substance to that....

peiledoir20 (Donegal) - Posts: 52 - 25/11/2020 13:53:01    2315214

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Replying To panamasam:  "Ulster some valid thought out points as per. I completely agree regarding the blaming the management. It is an easy excuse to make the players themselves have as just as much responsibility. For example like you say Patton had to do better. Regarding Carroll he is a good player but certainly not the answer to all our problems. The points about Michael Langan and Jason McGee. They are still young lads so maybe have the potential to develop more of an edge. However Michael Langan whom I think is a supremely talented player got into positions to hit what were not hard scores but missed which was all down to pressure. Which leads onto your point about mental weakness. We have been in a position to qualify for an All Ireland semi final the last 3 years been one game away and lost each time. Those are clutch games and each time we failed. The focus is right in my view."
As I said in another post we seemed to play in to Cavan's hands by crowding together,not being able to make the pitch big.Players like Lacey and McGlynn had the brains to make incisions with great timing rarely getting bottled up.

gunman (Donegal) - Posts: 701 - 25/11/2020 14:00:27    2315218

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I am not at all calling for Bonner's head, the spectre of mcguinness appears to be looming large in the background. Bonner has the backing of the county chairman and other key figures at county board level. As i have stated already I don't think there is any pressure from the clubs or supporters to get rid of him. mcGuinness has given no indication publicly of a return. I can only wonder is it the work of senior players within the squad at play............or are we just being treated to the usual ''something not right in the camp rumour mill'' which usually follows a big game defeat?

totalrecall (Leitrim) - Posts: 538 - 25/11/2020 14:12:37    2315227

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Replying To cavanman47:  "I'd love that. And please god crowds are back.

I was going to wait until after the dublin game (and, however unlikely, all ireland final) to ask this on the Cavan forum, but do ye see Cavan as potential challengers next year? Are we here to stay?

My own opinion is that Mickey Graham is an amazing manager. And he's shown that before. It'll come down to how much the players want it again. If we can replicate the passion, commitment, desire and BELIEF, I think we can move consistently to the levels of Tyrone and Donegal of the past few seasons."
Cavan dominated underage in Ulster football between 2010 and 2015, and looking at them in 2018 and 2019, I thought they were a solid outfit. A problem Cavan had at underage during that period was a lack of outstanding forwards, which is the reason they only dominated Ulster, but couldn't win All Irelands at minor or U21.

I think Cavan will be serious challengers in Ulster for the next 3-4 years, but It won't be easy next year, as

Tyrone will Cathal McShane and Conor McKenna likely upfront, with new management and super strong panel with fresh ideas, they could be a rising force.

Donegal will hopefully have some of our better defenders back and will hopefully be stronger.

Monaghan looked great during early stages of National League, I think they were unlucky to be out so early, they

Down, Armagh, Derry all look to be improving, so Ulster won't be getting any easier.

Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 531 - 25/11/2020 16:44:59    2315309

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Replying To totalrecall:  "I am not at all calling for Bonner's head, the spectre of mcguinness appears to be looming large in the background. Bonner has the backing of the county chairman and other key figures at county board level. As i have stated already I don't think there is any pressure from the clubs or supporters to get rid of him. mcGuinness has given no indication publicly of a return. I can only wonder is it the work of senior players within the squad at play............or are we just being treated to the usual ''something not right in the camp rumour mill'' which usually follows a big game defeat?"
I don't think we can really blame Declan Bonner.

Despite our injuries entering the match, we only conceded 1-13, our real problem was up the other end of the pitch.

Our inside forwards Jamie Brennan, Paddy McBrearty and Michael Murphy were all kept quiet (Like Mayo in 2019), and our half forwards Niall O'Donnell, Michael Langan and Peadar Mogan were all quiet too. It's not that they were all playing bad, but we dropped a lot of shots short or miss hit to Cavan players, not just wides.

Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 531 - 25/11/2020 16:56:58    2315316

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Replying To peiledoir20:  "Well let's not mention that Cavan played with a man less for more than a quarter of the game. And looked better conditioned, fresher and fitter.

Or the fact that this was Cavan's sixth weekend on the bounce which included an extra time tussle with Monaghan. But finished fresher and fitter on Sunday.

But like you said, not much substance to that...."
Yeah Cavan were the better side, no disputing that.

But Donegal have repeatedly dispatched that Cavan team with relative ease, and we didn't look great on Sunday.
Yes Cavan tactically got things right, but we've faced those same tactics before, specifically against Mayo last year in Castlebar.

We need to look specifically at why we fell into the same trap two years running, same type of performance fall.

Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 531 - 25/11/2020 17:02:27    2315322

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Cavan played well, but lets face it, we've beaten them easily before and will do so again. Very disappointing to lose to inferior opposition (and deservedly lose. if anything the scoreboard is kind to donegal as we may as well not have even taken to the field in the second half and should have been beat out the gate).

I cant put my finger on why we didn't perform and there is a similar feeling about Castlebar in 2019 too. I don't think Tyrone would have performed like that in the final and would have dispatched Cavan without much fuss.

Some soul searching to be done int he squad / management over the next few weeks.

Samsforthehills (Donegal) - Posts: 1023 - 25/11/2020 18:08:54    2315351

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Replying To peiledoir20:  "Well let's not mention that Cavan played with a man less for more than a quarter of the game. And looked better conditioned, fresher and fitter.

Or the fact that this was Cavan's sixth weekend on the bounce which included an extra time tussle with Monaghan. But finished fresher and fitter on Sunday.

But like you said, not much substance to that...."
You're a like a broken record my friend. If Cavan were fitter, fresher and better conditioned then how come Donegal laid siege to their goal in injury time? Sadly it took their goal for the Donegal players to hit the mental switch but by then the game was over bar a miracle. What Cavan were was hungrier and played with more intensity while Donegal were waiting for something to happen. Probably would have got a (undeserved) draw too were it not for the goal. Maybe if Aaron Kyles under the instruction of Declan got Patton to do a few more bicep curls last week he would have caught the ball rather than trying to punch it when moving backwards.

panamasam (Australia) - Posts: 2492 - 25/11/2020 18:30:34    2315359

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Replying To gunman:  "As I said in another post we seemed to play in to Cavan's hands by crowding together,not being able to make the pitch big.Players like Lacey and McGlynn had the brains to make incisions with great timing rarely getting bottled up."
Need to watch back gunman to comment but not had the heart yet. Thompson certainly a big loss in that respect of making the pitch bigger.

panamasam (Australia) - Posts: 2492 - 25/11/2020 18:33:04    2315361

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Replying To totalrecall:  "I am not at all calling for Bonner's head, the spectre of mcguinness appears to be looming large in the background. Bonner has the backing of the county chairman and other key figures at county board level. As i have stated already I don't think there is any pressure from the clubs or supporters to get rid of him. mcGuinness has given no indication publicly of a return. I can only wonder is it the work of senior players within the squad at play............or are we just being treated to the usual ''something not right in the camp rumour mill'' which usually follows a big game defeat?"
There is no way Jim would be making public declarations that would quite frankly be very disrespectful to Declan and his backroom team. Jim has far too much respect and dignity for that not to mention having a good relationship with Declan and his backroom team especially Karl and Paul. I haven't heard any rumours but I haven't been in Donegal for months with everything going on. You always get rumours after such a defeat but funny how they didn't materialize after the Tyrone and Armagh games?

panamasam (Australia) - Posts: 2492 - 25/11/2020 18:42:34    2315363

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Replying To panamasam:  "You're a like a broken record my friend. If Cavan were fitter, fresher and better conditioned then how come Donegal laid siege to their goal in injury time? Sadly it took their goal for the Donegal players to hit the mental switch but by then the game was over bar a miracle. What Cavan were was hungrier and played with more intensity while Donegal were waiting for something to happen. Probably would have got a (undeserved) draw too were it not for the goal. Maybe if Aaron Kyles under the instruction of Declan got Patton to do a few more bicep curls last week he would have caught the ball rather than trying to punch it when moving backwards."
Good man, select an isolated moment when Cavan dropped everyone back to shut up shop to back up your narrative. Forget about the 70+ mins beforehand when they were coming at us at will. Clutching at straws at this stage.

If you knew anything about S&C you would know that a bicep curl doesn't have much sport specific-ness, yet you play the the part of the expert claiming all is OK.

peiledoir20 (Donegal) - Posts: 52 - 25/11/2020 20:41:41    2315420

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Its Wednesday evening, and I'm just coming to terms with it all. I was going around for a couple of days with my head in a daze.

Interestingly, it appears that our boys on Sunday were also in a daze. Very few of them appeared to be able to think on their feet, and to see what was going wrong in front of them. Because it was all in front of them, I don't think the problem was at the back. Okay, Cavan scored 1-13, and you'd be disappointed to concede it, but it wasn't huge score.

Before I move to up front, even without conceding the goal, I still feel we were a beaten docket. People have criticised Patton for the punch, and it was a poor punch. I just wonder how much of Leo McLoone's goal in the county semi final was going through his head. Its something he will need to work on. In relation to the kick outs, Cavan came up with a way of countering our effectiveness, they let us have the short one, but instead or retreating, they then put serious pressure on the ball carrier, killing our momentum.

Our full back line, despite missing McMenamin and Wee Paddy still done reasonably well considering how exposed they were at times.

Going forward we were aimless. We kept persisting with the same approach play over and over again, running the same patterns. When it was clear that Cavan had the answer to that particular question, we didn't ask them another one. In fairness to Cavan, they had their homework done, and their confidence grew even more then. But we could have rotated Paddy Mc out to centre forward and dropped Michael in for a few minutes, or Langan or Hughie.

I don't want to critisise individual players, they will each be feeling the pain of defeat. But like in Castlebar, it looked like they were not mentally prepared for the intensity. They seemed shell-shocked by the Cavan/Mayo hunger and intensity, and they forgot everything that they learned previously. They were a bit like myself years ago, I studied for Kavanagh, but I was in trouble when Yeats appeared. Every single one of them is good enough to play for the county, its not a case that anyone can question them in that regard, they have endless talent.

Finally, I'm not comfortbale criticising Declan, not in the slightest, he has us playing a fantastic brand of football, and has developed young players who are the envy of the country, and certainly hope that he stays on. But we don't lose that game under Jim!

SouthOfTheGap (Donegal) - Posts: 142 - 25/11/2020 21:42:20    2315447

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Replying To SouthOfTheGap:  "Its Wednesday evening, and I'm just coming to terms with it all. I was going around for a couple of days with my head in a daze.

Interestingly, it appears that our boys on Sunday were also in a daze. Very few of them appeared to be able to think on their feet, and to see what was going wrong in front of them. Because it was all in front of them, I don't think the problem was at the back. Okay, Cavan scored 1-13, and you'd be disappointed to concede it, but it wasn't huge score.

Before I move to up front, even without conceding the goal, I still feel we were a beaten docket. People have criticised Patton for the punch, and it was a poor punch. I just wonder how much of Leo McLoone's goal in the county semi final was going through his head. Its something he will need to work on. In relation to the kick outs, Cavan came up with a way of countering our effectiveness, they let us have the short one, but instead or retreating, they then put serious pressure on the ball carrier, killing our momentum.

Our full back line, despite missing McMenamin and Wee Paddy still done reasonably well considering how exposed they were at times.

Going forward we were aimless. We kept persisting with the same approach play over and over again, running the same patterns. When it was clear that Cavan had the answer to that particular question, we didn't ask them another one. In fairness to Cavan, they had their homework done, and their confidence grew even more then. But we could have rotated Paddy Mc out to centre forward and dropped Michael in for a few minutes, or Langan or Hughie.

I don't want to critisise individual players, they will each be feeling the pain of defeat. But like in Castlebar, it looked like they were not mentally prepared for the intensity. They seemed shell-shocked by the Cavan/Mayo hunger and intensity, and they forgot everything that they learned previously. They were a bit like myself years ago, I studied for Kavanagh, but I was in trouble when Yeats appeared. Every single one of them is good enough to play for the county, its not a case that anyone can question them in that regard, they have endless talent.

Finally, I'm not comfortbale criticising Declan, not in the slightest, he has us playing a fantastic brand of football, and has developed young players who are the envy of the country, and certainly hope that he stays on. But we don't lose that game under Jim!"
There is no doubt Jim changed the mindset at the time and did a fantastic job but the same thing happened in the 2014 Final that we were expected to win having beaten Dublin.Kerry provided a very physical challenge that day and went defensive which flumoxed us.Ironically a goalkeeping blunder was also crucial that day.That was a far more disappointing day in my eyes than last Sunday.

gunman (Donegal) - Posts: 701 - 25/11/2020 23:19:40    2315482

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Replying To peiledoir20:  "Good man, select an isolated moment when Cavan dropped everyone back to shut up shop to back up your narrative. Forget about the 70+ mins beforehand when they were coming at us at will. Clutching at straws at this stage.

If you knew anything about S&C you would know that a bicep curl doesn't have much sport specific-ness, yet you play the the part of the expert claiming all is OK."
Ha Ha me clutching at straws? Think you missed the humour about the bicep curls probably too busy reading the gym bible. If fitness was an issue how come we were able to keep going till the 70'th plus minute. Eh and coming at us at will? They scored 1-13 hardly a dominant scoreline. So in theory our S & C was fine for Tyrone and Armagh yet still declined so much since playing Cavan and theirs improved so much that they beat us? For the record never said everything was ok. There is a mental failure brought on through pressure at a stage when a game from an all Ireland semi final.

panamasam (Australia) - Posts: 2492 - 26/11/2020 00:49:50    2315494

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Replying To panamasam:  "Ha Ha me clutching at straws? Think you missed the humour about the bicep curls probably too busy reading the gym bible. If fitness was an issue how come we were able to keep going till the 70'th plus minute. Eh and coming at us at will? They scored 1-13 hardly a dominant scoreline. So in theory our S & C was fine for Tyrone and Armagh yet still declined so much since playing Cavan and theirs improved so much that they beat us? For the record never said everything was ok. There is a mental failure brought on through pressure at a stage when a game from an all Ireland semi final."
The reason we were still just about in the game at that point might have been (as I have already alluded to - please read my full post) might have been to do with the fact that Cavan played with a man less for 20 mins. Interestingly, we only scored 6 points when we were a man up.

peiledoir20 (Donegal) - Posts: 52 - 26/11/2020 10:03:11    2315529

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Replying To peiledoir20:  "The reason we were still just about in the game at that point might have been (as I have already alluded to - please read my full post) might have been to do with the fact that Cavan played with a man less for 20 mins. Interestingly, we only scored 6 points when we were a man up."
Blaming S&C for the other day is nonsense.
A question for you - a month ago if you were asked the question, "Which team presents a bigger challenge in terms of physicality - Tyrone or Cavan?" What would your answer have been?
In addition to that, it was a dirty, rotten day when we played Tyrone and it was a day for getting stuck in and into an arm wrestle. But we came out on top. Armagh were then seen as the big bogey men that we'd have bother matching physically but we beat them out the gate.

As others have said, it was a mental collapse more than anything. It was as if the 3-in-a-row of Ulster titles, All-Ireland semi final, the hype etc all combined to totally spook most of the players. They seemed to have lead in their boots, decision making went out the window and they were missing scores that I'd have managed to put over.

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 7194 - 26/11/2020 10:23:37    2315534

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Replying To Lockjaw:  "Blaming S&C for the other day is nonsense.
A question for you - a month ago if you were asked the question, "Which team presents a bigger challenge in terms of physicality - Tyrone or Cavan?" What would your answer have been?
In addition to that, it was a dirty, rotten day when we played Tyrone and it was a day for getting stuck in and into an arm wrestle. But we came out on top. Armagh were then seen as the big bogey men that we'd have bother matching physically but we beat them out the gate.

As others have said, it was a mental collapse more than anything. It was as if the 3-in-a-row of Ulster titles, All-Ireland semi final, the hype etc all combined to totally spook most of the players. They seemed to have lead in their boots, decision making went out the window and they were missing scores that I'd have managed to put over."
Tyrone are a less physical team than Cavan and Armagh were putrid, in most aspects. The Cavan game followed the same pattern as the Mayo game last year - out muscled physically. Ignore it all you want but the pattern will continue if it is not addressed.

peiledoir20 (Donegal) - Posts: 52 - 26/11/2020 11:13:07    2315551

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Good to see Declan is staying on.While 3 in a row would have been great the fact that we won a major game to stay in Div 1 might prove very important for our development in the long run,We will get a chance to put things right very quickly as the new season is just around the corner.Talking of managers with the appointment of Logan and Dooher games with Tyrone are likely to be even more feisty if the U-21 battles we had with them is anything to go by.

gunman (Donegal) - Posts: 701 - 26/11/2020 11:49:26    2315569

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Replying To peiledoir20:  "Tyrone are a less physical team than Cavan and Armagh were putrid, in most aspects. The Cavan game followed the same pattern as the Mayo game last year - out muscled physically. Ignore it all you want but the pattern will continue if it is not addressed."
Tyrone are a less physical team than Cavan? You seriously haven't a clue. Good luck.

panamasam (Australia) - Posts: 2492 - 26/11/2020 11:58:17    2315576

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