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The green flag of the Irish Confederation with the gold harp would be my choice. BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2525 - 08/03/2024 08:43:04 2530258 Link
Replying To zinny: "It might have been a nod to the Ulster Scots but the irony is even today the red hand predates their arrival and I believe it was mention of the use of it by King James in their coat of arms that gave the attachment to it. The original use of the flag is gone now anyway and if there ever were to be unity a flag should represent the different traditions and the point that came out in the program was that its an Ulster Scots tradition. They may be politically unionist but that doesn't define their tradition." The Red Hand was the symbol of the O'Neills. One of the last Irish families still fighting against the English, right up to the Flight of the Earls which effectively ended the 9 Years War after the battle of Kinsale. Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11735 - 08/03/2024 08:54:34 2530261 Link
Replying To zinny: "It might have been a nod to the Ulster Scots but the irony is even today the red hand predates their arrival and I believe it was mention of the use of it by King James in their coat of arms that gave the attachment to it. The original use of the flag is gone now anyway and if there ever were to be unity a flag should represent the different traditions and the point that came out in the program was that its an Ulster Scots tradition. They may be politically unionist but that doesn't define their tradition." What is their tradition? they are the descendants of mostly Scottish protestant settlers who were given or who expropriated land from the native population. They have never deviated from that conception of themselves and it has always been naive of Irish nationalists to think that the "Tories" or the "capitalists" or the "imperialists" have fooled them for 400 years. Unity would involve recognizing that tradition through something like federalism as outlined in the Éire Nua policy. BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2525 - 08/03/2024 09:06:51 2530262 Link
Replying To BarneyGrant: "The green flag of the Irish Confederation with the gold harp would be my choice." They have no problem with green as their Soccer team also play in green.Maybe Green ,White and Blue would be a good choice.Green for the Irish,White for those of English origin and Blue for the Ulster Scots. gunman (Donegal) - Posts: 1056 - 08/03/2024 10:11:01 2530276 Link
Replying To Viking66: "The Red Hand was the symbol of the O'Neills. One of the last Irish families still fighting against the English, right up to the Flight of the Earls which effectively ended the 9 Years War after the battle of Kinsale." Correct and right. I don't know how loyalist groups came to start using the red hand. They must be as ignorant to its background as they are to the meanings behind most of their place names. MachaireConnacht (Roscommon) - Posts: 773 - 08/03/2024 10:44:15 2530283 Link
Replying To MachaireConnacht: "Correct and right. I don't know how loyalist groups came to start using the red hand. They must be as ignorant to its background as they are to the meanings behind most of their place names." Probably because the use of the Lámh Dhearg Uladh as a symbol predates its use by the Uí Néill Maroonatic (Galway) - Posts: 1060 - 08/03/2024 11:07:56 2530288 Link
Replying To BarneyGrant: "What is their tradition? they are the descendants of mostly Scottish protestant settlers who were given or who expropriated land from the native population. They have never deviated from that conception of themselves and it has always been naive of Irish nationalists to think that the "Tories" or the "capitalists" or the "imperialists" have fooled them for 400 years. Unity would involve recognizing that tradition through something like federalism as outlined in the Éire Nua policy." It is most definitely the imperialists that are at the root of it. The only reason staunch loyalism existed is because the British state traditionally gave them an artificial sense of superiority and backed them up militarily when needed. Without that, they would have pretty much amalgamted with the native population. The proof is in places like parts of Donegal around Newtown Cunningham. And many of those Scots decendants did eventually come to see themselves as Irish, see prominent political surnames like Hume and Adams, and look at the surnames of some of Ulster footballers like Campbell, Burns, Marsden, Withnell. Since 1998 and Britain effectively changing tack on the unconditional backing of loyalists, that group who sees themselves apart are getting smaller and smaller by the day and will eventually become irrelavant. See how even as recent as the 80's the loyalists were able to call strikes that would bring the north to a standstill. Compare that to the fleg and protocol protests. They're barely able to get a few hundred and maybe pushed at a couple of thousand together on a good day. Make no mistake, it has been British imperialism that has fostered division on this island the past 400 years. MachaireConnacht (Roscommon) - Posts: 773 - 08/03/2024 11:20:53 2530290 Link
Replying To Canuck: "In Waterford we tend not to crow as much about our legacy of pride in all sports with a special allegiance to gaelic games. Last week we celebrated Thomas Francis Meagher day. He flew the tri-colour at Wolf Tone house on the quay a whopping 176 years ago. We all know the meaning of that flag and though some inclusiveness still to be done its symbolism is strong. Our neighbours have responsibility for it not reaching a higher platoon. We ourselves have a certain amount of responsibility with intransigence towards our Northern brothers and sisters. The GAA is and can be a beacon of light. Inclusiveness is the only way." Canuck I think it was the Mall. mooncat (Kilkenny) - Posts: 533 - 08/03/2024 13:35:34 2530314 Link
Replying To MachaireConnacht: "It is most definitely the imperialists that are at the root of it. The only reason staunch loyalism existed is because the British state traditionally gave them an artificial sense of superiority and backed them up militarily when needed. Without that, they would have pretty much amalgamted with the native population. The proof is in places like parts of Donegal around Newtown Cunningham. And many of those Scots decendants did eventually come to see themselves as Irish, see prominent political surnames like Hume and Adams, and look at the surnames of some of Ulster footballers like Campbell, Burns, Marsden, Withnell. Since 1998 and Britain effectively changing tack on the unconditional backing of loyalists, that group who sees themselves apart are getting smaller and smaller by the day and will eventually become irrelavant. See how even as recent as the 80's the loyalists were able to call strikes that would bring the north to a standstill. Compare that to the fleg and protocol protests. They're barely able to get a few hundred and maybe pushed at a couple of thousand together on a good day. Make no mistake, it has been British imperialism that has fostered division on this island the past 400 years." The only way British imperialism could rule was by creating divisions and every colonial power up to today practices the same concept. Barney would like to blame the puppets. Politics has got us to the point where to say you are an Ulster Scott and you are catholic means you are not a real Irishman and if you are protestant, then you are a traitor to the union. Barney must share his book on the values you need to have to be considered Irish after all he clearly has the purest lineage that goes back over 4000 years. Unfortunately some people and their views are part of the problem and they never want to find a solution. zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1800 - 08/03/2024 16:55:49 2530351 Link
Replying To zinny: "The only way British imperialism could rule was by creating divisions and every colonial power up to today practices the same concept. Barney would like to blame the puppets. Politics has got us to the point where to say you are an Ulster Scott and you are catholic means you are not a real Irishman and if you are protestant, then you are a traitor to the union. Barney must share his book on the values you need to have to be considered Irish after all he clearly has the purest lineage that goes back over 4000 years. Unfortunately some people and their views are part of the problem and they never want to find a solution." The Ulster descendants of the Protestant settlers are not Irish, Do you think you know them better than they know themselves? Which is both hopelessly naive and insulting to them. We share an island and need to make a compromise as they have nowhere else to go, unlike more recent additions. They have a right to be here, the Brits as a sovereign power do not. You do not seem to grasp the difference. What it is a lesson for is that the Irish nation is not a sponge capable of absorbing everyone who gets off the boat or the plane, We lost the first plantation, we lose this one, and that's it my friends. BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2525 - 08/03/2024 17:48:32 2530359 Link
No one takes the loyalists use of the "Red Hand" too seriously. The planters were a bit like the white settlers in America who tried to eradicate all aspects of native culture. It succeeded in America , thankfully not in this part of Ireland. tireoghainabu (Tyrone) - Posts: 274 - 08/03/2024 19:13:03 2530366 Link
Replying To BarneyGrant: "The Ulster descendants of the Protestant settlers are not Irish, Do you think you know them better than they know themselves? Which is both hopelessly naive and insulting to them. We share an island and need to make a compromise as they have nowhere else to go, unlike more recent additions. They have a right to be here, the Brits as a sovereign power do not. You do not seem to grasp the difference. What it is a lesson for is that the Irish nation is not a sponge capable of absorbing everyone who gets off the boat or the plane, We lost the first plantation, we lose this one, and that's it my friends." Thats paranoid drivel. KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3499 - 08/03/2024 19:41:52 2530368 Link
Replying To BarneyGrant: "The Ulster descendants of the Protestant settlers are not Irish, Do you think you know them better than they know themselves? Which is both hopelessly naive and insulting to them. We share an island and need to make a compromise as they have nowhere else to go, unlike more recent additions. They have a right to be here, the Brits as a sovereign power do not. You do not seem to grasp the difference. What it is a lesson for is that the Irish nation is not a sponge capable of absorbing everyone who gets off the boat or the plane, We lost the first plantation, we lose this one, and that's it my friends." Among others, do you think Gerry Adams is having us all on? By that way of thinking no one who goes to another country will ever see themselves as a member of the new country. We fixate on Ulster but there were plantations to differing degrees in Munster, Laois/Offaly, Longford, Leitrim, Sligo, yet we don't say that the descendants of those plantations are not Irish. Take that logic even further and the Burkes or Fitzgeralds aren't. Remember the Norman invasion was partly justified because the Christianity in Ireland was very far from the Christianity practiced on the continent. As different as Catholic and Protestant. MachaireConnacht (Roscommon) - Posts: 773 - 08/03/2024 20:02:39 2530373 Link
Replying To KillingFields: "Thats paranoid drivel." What is paranoid drivel? You are like the lad in the corner of the pub who splutters something when he hears something he doesn't like or understand but can't articulate why. Ulster prods do not think of themselves as Irish. And they've been here 400 years. Do you understand that? Yet you are probably under the delusion that some lad from Lagos will :-) As for the distinction between the Norman settlers and the Ulster ones, anyone who has read Irish history starting with Seathrún Ceitinn would understand the distinction. They were gaelicised and shared same religion. BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2525 - 08/03/2024 21:27:10 2530379 Link
Replying To BarneyGrant: "What is paranoid drivel? You are like the lad in the corner of the pub who splutters something when he hears something he doesn't like or understand but can't articulate why. Ulster prods do not think of themselves as Irish. And they've been here 400 years. Do you understand that? Yet you are probably under the delusion that some lad from Lagos will :-) As for the distinction between the Norman settlers and the Ulster ones, anyone who has read Irish history starting with Seathrún Ceitinn would understand the distinction. They were gaelicised and shared same religion." Identifying as Irish has nothing whatsoever to do with religion. Plenty of prominent Irish Republicans from 1798 onwards were Protestants. Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11735 - 09/03/2024 12:48:20 2530440 Link
Replying To KillingFields: "Thats paranoid drivel." How is it paranoid drivel? Are you honestly suggesting that the profound demographic changes taking place in Ireland and the western world in general will have no negative bearing on our own people. According to current trends, Britain will have to build the equivalent of ten new Birminghams in the next 25 years to accommodate its new arrivals. I'm not sure what our projections are but per head of population it's probably similar. Being uncomfortable with that isnt paranoid, it's perfectly sensible. Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1699 - 09/03/2024 13:23:26 2530445 Link
Replying To Viking66: "Identifying as Irish has nothing whatsoever to do with religion. Plenty of prominent Irish Republicans from 1798 onwards were Protestants." On the subject of identity have any of you noticed lately on forms and online forms a new box to tick about gender? There is one that says AMAB? Assigned Male At Birth! easy enough to identify that I'd have thought! Being an Irish Nationalist has nothing to do with religion but it breaks down along those lines and it was designed to be that way by the colonisers. Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 2739 - 09/03/2024 13:26:52 2530447 Link
Replying To Tirchonaill1: "On the subject of identity have any of you noticed lately on forms and online forms a new box to tick about gender? There is one that says AMAB? Assigned Male At Birth! easy enough to identify that I'd have thought! Being an Irish Nationalist has nothing to do with religion but it breaks down along those lines and it was designed to be that way by the colonisers." Sad when someone who is very obviously a proud Irish man can't see through that. Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11735 - 09/03/2024 14:23:02 2530454 Link
Replying To Viking66: "Identifying as Irish has nothing whatsoever to do with religion. Plenty of prominent Irish Republicans from 1798 onwards were Protestants." You clearly do not understand what I said, You do realise that the two things that brought the Norman "Old English" into the Irish nation were language and religion. They are also the two factors that prevented the later settlers from ever becoming part of that nation. This is not my opinion, by the way. It is the common view of early modern historians. BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2525 - 09/03/2024 14:48:18 2530457 Link