Donegal Forum

Championship 2020

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Cavan didn't Thomas Galligan or James Smith last year. Huge Additions to the cavan team. Cavan never stopped and didn't let us play. Yes we are disappointed but credit to cavan. I though cassidy was very harsh with the 2nd black.

flukey (Cavan) - Posts: 21 - 23/11/2020 12:53:23    2313896

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Replying To jacktheboy:  "Rochford never won a Connaught Title with Mayo, never beat Galway, struggled in qualifiers with lucky wins against Cork, Derry etc, granted ran Dublin close, but Dublin don't play well in Finals and only win them at most by a point or two, but beat Mayo evert time."
Very one sided reply jack. No word of winning a club all Ireland with corofin or of beating Kerry and Tyrone to make them all ireland finals. From talking to people he's very highly praised as a very good coach and if you don't mind me saying we have nobody like him in Donegal

rorysboys (Donegal) - Posts: 945 - 23/11/2020 12:58:08    2313899

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They used to say about fellas that were committed to a cause that they'd put their head into places you wouldn't put a crow bar,
Thomas Galligan and his crew reminded me of that yesterday, heart and bravery, you can't train that into fellas, you have it or you don't.
McGuinness used to walk among the circle and asking everyman in turn, 'Can I trust you? Can I trust you? when the chips have been down in the last few years we have gone missing.
Jim made some wrong calls from the line too as all managers do, but we haven't been in an All Ireland semi final since he left.
I have great time for Declan and Rochford etc, but we need a change, this isn't good enough for the talent we have, we should be challenging for the Sam Maguire, not wimping out when the irons in the fire.

Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 1369 - 23/11/2020 13:00:12    2313901

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Cavan both defensively and in midfield are a solid physical outfit, and were able to contain or limit our inside forwards, and do enough to frustrate our half forwards. Mayo did this last year too, took us into a dog fight, confident that their full back line would contain our inside forwards better than our full back line would deal with theirs, just enough to edge the match. I didn't think we were really bad yesterday, we just lost tiny margins here and there, but what is worrying is that our inside forwards didn't really cause Cavan much trouble, this happened last year against Mayo too.

This loss hurt, but this defeat combined with the Super 8 defeats in 2018 (Tyrone) and 2019 (Mayo) are highlighting the weak aspects of our game, which need to be addressed if we are challenge for All Ireland titles. Dublin looked great until we exposed the key weakness in their game in 2014, Dublin learned from it and re-calibrated and have since won the last 5 x All Ireland's.

We have amazing talent throughout this Donegal team, but we need to learn from these particular types of matches and in future shake things up accordingly, by maybe bringing in different types of players for these types of matches.

Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 548 - 23/11/2020 13:02:49    2313904

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Replying To panamasam:  "Ah stop embarrassing yourself again. First it was the S & C now its Rochford. Rochford has been an excellent addition and done better than anyone against the Dubs one questionable call around the keeper apart. It is actually a testament to him that they got to the latter stages despite the scares along the way. Teams will always be inconsistent which is what makes this Dublin team so incredible that they are so consistent. The drive and culture is in sporting terms akin to the All Blacks. For a team that don't play well in finals they have won 7 of the last 9 all Ireland finals."
If the Management is perfect and the S &C the best and a great panel of players available , why was there such a collapse yesterday, and not just yesterday, same happened last year against Mayo. If that happened with the All Blacks the Management would be gone immediately after the first collapse and there would be no one making excuses for them.

jacktheboy (Donegal) - Posts: 97 - 23/11/2020 13:04:21    2313907

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Replying To SurelyToGod:  "Bonner has enjoyed an excellent level of success in Ulster in this tenure, but I think it's becoming patently clear that he cannot get us to the next level. His game management is not of the level we need to take us over the line, and maybe even perfect game management wouldn't get us there. The substitutions yesterday were inexplicable and played right into Cavan's hands, but this is something we have come to expect from Bonner's sides over the years.

When we were 2 up (and in the ascendancy) in the 45th and the game was grinding down and possession was getting scrappy, we took off Paul Brennan our only player who was capable of creating a turnover outside our 45, our most effective player in recovering breaking balls, and one of our key players in recycling possession. Instead of Brennan, we brought in McClean who is a running half back, who is strong and can score. McClean did nothing wrong, but we didn't win any breaking ball after Brennan was taken off, and we were at the 45th minute locked into a quick direct kicking game which was nullified by the Cavan full back line who did not look like they would give an inch all evening. Potentially Brennan was injured, but this led to even more bizarre and frantic substitutions, where we we took off all of our creative half forwards on the pitch and replaced them with midfielders who didn't even get a hand on the ball.

Bonner's underage sides were excellent in early stages in Ulster, but in finals and All Ireland Series they didn't show up and fell apart in the last quarter. That pattern holds true for his senior side.

I genuinely believe we've left behind a Senior All Ireland in the last two years."
I agree in that some of the substitutions were questionable. Maybe Paul Brennan should have stayed on but like in other games it seemed pre meditated. At that stage maybe he had given his all. I would argue that McClean should have started and was actually one of the subs that had a positive impact. As Ulster champs pointed out defensively Donegal from a scores allowed perspective done ok it was getting scores that were the downfall. Regarding Bonner's record at underage its pretty impressive when you compare to others. You got a point regarding the 2015 minors there game against Derry had alot of similarities to yesterday. He won an Ulster under 21 and in fairness they were rode by the authorities when it came to when they played the semi final.

panamasam (Australia) - Posts: 2519 - 23/11/2020 13:12:39    2313916

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Replying To jacktheboy:  "If the Management is perfect and the S &C the best and a great panel of players available , why was there such a collapse yesterday, and not just yesterday, same happened last year against Mayo. If that happened with the All Blacks the Management would be gone immediately after the first collapse and there would be no one making excuses for them."
If you were going to pick an example well you could not picked a worse one. The all blacks foe being such a dominant rugby nation have a poor enough world Cup winning record. The won it in 1987 and didn't win again until 2011. They did have a habit of chopping the managers. Though when France beat them in 2007 quarters they didn't sack the manager. Graham Henry stayed on and they won the next World Cup, then his deputy manager Steve hansen took over and they won in 2015 as well.

Ulsterchamps_32 (Donegal) - Posts: 381 - 23/11/2020 13:39:08    2313945

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Replying To thelowball:  "Very good points on here about Donegal's demise yesterday and actually it appears that u posters have a better handle on Donegal players and playing strategy than was exhibited by management in Armagh yesterday. In all sporting codes, soccer, rugby,Premiership etc the outcome is result driven.If you are not 'winning' you are gone. Familiar to everyone was the the great Jim McGuinness when he came to to the US to manage wasn't getting it done and in less than a year was abruptly told to have a nice day, you're out. Same should apply in Donegal GAA circles."
In fairness great credit has to go to Cavan they wanted it more and good luck to them .

I said before winter football would not suit Donegal's style or the smaller players , what happened to us yesterday i expected Armagh to do us i.e. turn the game into a dog fight .

i dont like kicking Bonnar when he is down today because i did enjoy his style of play especailly against Armagh ( one of our finest displays ever ).

But questions need to ask all the same ,

How can we expect to win when we have so many small players in our defence i.e. McClean, two McHughs thats three out of six .
Jason Mcgee and O Baoil introduced far too late .

next year i love to see , carroll , gillespie , ferry , morrisson , Campbell . MacNeillis , Mulgrew , C. Cunningham ,O baoil , Gallen , Ward , McCole, .. given more game time ..

There is an all ireland in us in the next two years before the great man Murphy retires .
Love if Mcguinness came back

ballyshannon (Donegal) - Posts: 159 - 23/11/2020 13:42:07    2313949

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Replying To jacktheboy:  "If the Management is perfect and the S &C the best and a great panel of players available , why was there such a collapse yesterday, and not just yesterday, same happened last year against Mayo. If that happened with the All Blacks the Management would be gone immediately after the first collapse and there would be no one making excuses for them."
Who is saying anything about perfect? I think you are being very unfair on management's credentials up to now. Questions have to be asked without a doubt. But a bit of perspective here. Talk of the All Blacks, my god. We have been excellent since 2011 in terms of challenging for Ulster and have left probably three titles behind us as well as the ones we have won. We haven't made the breakthrough in the All-Ireland series since 2014. These are all disappointing things for us as supporters as we can see the talent in the county.

There is always a bit of revisionism going on with sport and this is no different. People talk about 2018 as if we left it behind us but if you could search through old posts on Hoganstand I'm sure you would find very little talk of us winning Ulster that year. That was a huge bonus for the young fellas in the team. We got beat by Tyrone at home and that is a big disappointment without a doubt but that summer was a bonus all the way in my view after the negativity we had experienced for a couple of years.

Last year was the big big disappointment in Castlebar, especially after our performance against Kerry in Croke Park, and yesterday we couldn't match Cavan either in spite of a really good battling performance against Tyrone and an easy win against Armagh. But I think management have done enough since 2018 to have earned the benefit of the doubt for another year at least. Changing things now, with the short turnaround to 2021 as well, would be a bad move in my opinion.

JoeSoap (Donegal) - Posts: 1167 - 23/11/2020 13:49:03    2313958

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Replying To panamasam:  "Completely agree regarding the sentiments towards Cavan.......good luck to them and I hope the buzz they got from yesterday.

However like I think gunman alluded to I think we would have seen a much improved performance against Dublin if we unreservedly got out with a win yesterday much like 2014 and playing Armagh before the Dubs. I also think we are certainly not far off Dublin in terms of the backroom team. Yes there were some questionable calls around selections and substitutions but Declan Bonner himself wouldn't have had some of those poor misses we had yesterday."
Dublin's backroom is a lot more impressive and experienced in relation to our own. They have Bryan Cullen, former International Rules player, Al winning captain who has done it at the highest level and knows what is needed to succeed. Compare that to our backroom team - had anyone heard of them before they were appointed? You can argue to your blue in the face but the proof has been in the pudding when it really has mattered and we are coming off second best.

peiledoir20 (Donegal) - Posts: 63 - 23/11/2020 13:51:40    2313961

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WE have several good coaches in Donegal.Gary Mc Daid never got a proper chance under Rory maybe time to bring him into the fold.

neutral (None) - Posts: 299 - 23/11/2020 13:51:53    2313962

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Can't be much left in the Hogan woodwork now.

AudiMan (Donegal) - Posts: 482 - 23/11/2020 13:52:08    2313963

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Replying To panamasam:  "I agree in that some of the substitutions were questionable. Maybe Paul Brennan should have stayed on but like in other games it seemed pre meditated. At that stage maybe he had given his all. I would argue that McClean should have started and was actually one of the subs that had a positive impact. As Ulster champs pointed out defensively Donegal from a scores allowed perspective done ok it was getting scores that were the downfall. Regarding Bonner's record at underage its pretty impressive when you compare to others. You got a point regarding the 2015 minors there game against Derry had alot of similarities to yesterday. He won an Ulster under 21 and in fairness they were rode by the authorities when it came to when they played the semi final."
We are not far away, but management need to look at similarities in how we exited in 2018, 2019 and 2020, be very honest and brutal, and work hard to address it.

We have a great side, a very special crop of young players already with back to back Ulster titles already. I feel we are getting stronger year on year, but we need to embrace these arm wrestle matches more. We thrive in matches were teams allow us space, and we rack up cricket scores, but in these difficult tight defensive matches, our inside forwards seem to struggle.

If you told me before yesterday that we would only concede 1-13 yesterday, I would have smiled, as there is no way I would have thought we would be contained to 0-12 points by Cavan. The management team and players have my full backing, we just need to prepare for these types of matches better.

Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 548 - 23/11/2020 13:52:53    2313965

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@Rory , Talking about crying, you must be up all night 'crying' after that disaster or did u see a different game and tactics to everyone else!Then you're calling for new 'managers' to be named. Why don't you try the county board with that one . McGrath and the board must be getting pretty disillusioned watching Bonners shenanigans at this stage!2 Ulsters and done.Supposed to topple theDubs! Need a manager. End of.

thelowball (USA) - Posts: 307 - 23/11/2020 13:55:13    2313966

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What happened yesterday was the difference in teams coming from different perspectives. Cavan hadn't won it since 1997 and were mad for every ball. We had won two on the trot and had one eye on Dublin and that's the issue. What transpired yesterday has all the evidence of not completely focussed on Cavan by management and this translates to players.
If Thompson could come on why didn't he start instead of Mc Cole?
Mc Kelvey played in both games, why didn't he start instead of Eoin Mc Hugh?
Why was O' Baoil brought on instead of Mc Kelvey?
All this points towards trying things before Dublin. You don't TRY things in an Ulster Final against a hungry team like Cavan until the game is won. We were 12 points up against Armagh at half time and that was the time to TRY things.
Dublin were hammering Meath on Saturday night yet showed no mercy and then emptied the bench with 15 to go when they were sure of victory.
Both Donegal and Kerry were caught not fully focussed and were deservedly beat by more focussed and hungry teams.

All this talk however of Bonner going is premature. He made mistakes yesterday but got everything right against Tyrone. The players and the management need time to reflect on any mistakes that they think were made and look to put them right next year. If we see the same thing happen next year then it's time to change! We also have to remember the young age profile of this team. They got a harsh lesson in preparation yesterday and I'm sure they are all feeling low today.

Tir Conaill Abu (Donegal) - Posts: 1644 - 23/11/2020 13:56:43    2313971

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Replying To jacktheboy:  "If the Management is perfect and the S &C the best and a great panel of players available , why was there such a collapse yesterday, and not just yesterday, same happened last year against Mayo. If that happened with the All Blacks the Management would be gone immediately after the first collapse and there would be no one making excuses for them."
We didn't have a great panel of players available.

Our full back line was decimated before yesterday. Stephen McMenamin, Paddy McGrath out injured and Odhran McFadden-Ferry is in Lebanon, not to mentioned Conor Morrison and Kieran Gillespie out long-term.

Up front, losing Ciaran Thompson and Oisin Gallen was a blow, as despite out defensive woes, we now know these matches don't really suit Jamie Brennan or Niall O'Donnell, and Paddy McBrearty is only back, and not at full tilt.

Hard to blame management, as after the Tyrone and Armagh matches, it looked like we had more than enough to cope with this, but overall it was Cavan's ability to contain our forwards which cost us the game.

Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 548 - 23/11/2020 14:13:00    2313994

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Replying To Tir Conaill Abu:  "What happened yesterday was the difference in teams coming from different perspectives. Cavan hadn't won it since 1997 and were mad for every ball. We had won two on the trot and had one eye on Dublin and that's the issue. What transpired yesterday has all the evidence of not completely focussed on Cavan by management and this translates to players.
If Thompson could come on why didn't he start instead of Mc Cole?
Mc Kelvey played in both games, why didn't he start instead of Eoin Mc Hugh?
Why was O' Baoil brought on instead of Mc Kelvey?
All this points towards trying things before Dublin. You don't TRY things in an Ulster Final against a hungry team like Cavan until the game is won. We were 12 points up against Armagh at half time and that was the time to TRY things.
Dublin were hammering Meath on Saturday night yet showed no mercy and then emptied the bench with 15 to go when they were sure of victory.
Both Donegal and Kerry were caught not fully focussed and were deservedly beat by more focussed and hungry teams.

All this talk however of Bonner going is premature. He made mistakes yesterday but got everything right against Tyrone. The players and the management need time to reflect on any mistakes that they think were made and look to put them right next year. If we see the same thing happen next year then it's time to change! We also have to remember the young age profile of this team. They got a harsh lesson in preparation yesterday and I'm sure they are all feeling low today."
Agree with pretty much all of this although I think Eoin McHugh was worthy of his starting place, he has played very well in my view - came off the bench v Tyrone and won a lot of dirty ball that day. But other than that I agree with you definitely.

JoeSoap (Donegal) - Posts: 1167 - 23/11/2020 14:13:47    2313995

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Glad to see there is one poster who has had their internet connection fixed just in time to stick the boot into management, funny their connection to this forum never seems to be working when we're on a winning run :-)

JoeSoap (Donegal) - Posts: 1167 - 23/11/2020 14:14:26    2313998

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Well that was a real sickener and it's hard to pinpoint what went wrong exactly.
A few thoughts...

S&C is not the issue. It wasn't a problem when we beat Tyrone and Armagh so I don't know why people are talking about it now.

We don't know the ins and outs re: Gallen & Thompson so a bit unfair to be too critical until more details emerge. From talking to a few Cavan friends last night, they were absolutely delighted Thompson couldn't start. He had been playing so well. Gallen is a special talent and was probably the exact type of player we needed in the second half yesterday to inject some intensity and ingenuity to our attack. Unfortunately it was just a bad day at the office for Jamie Brennan.

Paddy wasn't match fit. The games just came too quickly. He relies on his power, pace and explosiveness and it just wasn't there yesterday. No fault to him though.

People have touched on it a wee bit already, but what I felt was most lacking yesterday (and indeed in Mayo last year) was that bit of unquantifiable tigerishness, drive, will to win or whatever term you want to call it. We have some very talented players without doubt. But when the going gets really tough I just think we don't have that same pig-ignorant spirit we used to have under Jim. We saw yesterday that it was the old warrior McGee trying to lead the charge, but there just wasn't enough of a supporting cast.

In fairness we were missing McMenamin, McFadden Ferry and McGrath who do bring that aggression. But there's not much point in chatting about that now.

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 7301 - 23/11/2020 14:15:50    2314000

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Replying To neutral:  "WE have several good coaches in Donegal.Gary Mc Daid never got a proper chance under Rory maybe time to bring him into the fold."
Is this a joke? He was the manager of a good under 20's Donegal team for two years and got nowhere. Complained that the county board weren't behind him. Huffed and resigned.

Carreoin (Donegal) - Posts: 37 - 23/11/2020 14:30:07    2314015

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