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Replying To Tadhg2020: "The flaw in the " system" as you put it is not so much the system itself but this idea or belief that all you have to do is engage with the system to benefit from it.
How do you convince the uneducated that education will benefit them and/or their children?
They dont value education and, as importantly, the society in which they consider home doesnt value education either. Their parent, or the grandparents, dont value it, their friends dont value it etc etc. Yes they can be proud of the one that " went to Trinity" and still not value education.
So the " system" is at a disadvantage in these areas from the off. Many kids only go to school for as long as they have to and for as long as their parents can get introuble if they dont. These kids grow up in a completely different culture to ours. They can spot something is wrong a mile away. They know when the council are coming for their horses before the council hit the estates. Their street smarts are exceptional even though many struggle to read or write.
There is no easy solution as the system as you call it is designed for a society that wants to engage with it and not for those that dont. Its designed to benefit those that engage and value it. These people dont and its generational. They dont believe its for them or that they can benefit them. They fear it as it takes them from their community and comfort zone. How many of us would embrace anything that we fear as much as that?" One of the better observations so far in this particular thread.
Freethinker (Wicklow) - Posts: 2210 - 12/04/2026 18:49:07
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Replying To Tadhg2020: "The flaw in the " system" as you put it is not so much the system itself but this idea or belief that all you have to do is engage with the system to benefit from it.
How do you convince the uneducated that education will benefit them and/or their children?
They dont value education and, as importantly, the society in which they consider home doesnt value education either. Their parent, or the grandparents, dont value it, their friends dont value it etc etc. Yes they can be proud of the one that " went to Trinity" and still not value education.
So the " system" is at a disadvantage in these areas from the off. Many kids only go to school for as long as they have to and for as long as their parents can get introuble if they dont. These kids grow up in a completely different culture to ours. They can spot something is wrong a mile away. They know when the council are coming for their horses before the council hit the estates. Their street smarts are exceptional even though many struggle to read or write.
There is no easy solution as the system as you call it is designed for a society that wants to engage with it and not for those that dont. Its designed to benefit those that engage and value it. These people dont and its generational. They dont believe its for them or that they can benefit them. They fear it as it takes them from their community and comfort zone. How many of us would embrace anything that we fear as much as that?" It was also very common for rural families not to value engaging with the education system. Children were pulled out of school as soon as they could work. This was also generational, but it has changed. Just because something was tradition doesn't mean it can't be changed.
Most people in those communities know full well the benefits of educating their children. It's not the children who fear it at all. However, it suits the strong patriarchal element in the community to keep everyone in the same cycle.
WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2758 - 12/04/2026 22:00:53
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Replying To Tadhg2020: "The flaw in the " system" as you put it is not so much the system itself but this idea or belief that all you have to do is engage with the system to benefit from it.
How do you convince the uneducated that education will benefit them and/or their children?
They dont value education and, as importantly, the society in which they consider home doesnt value education either. Their parent, or the grandparents, dont value it, their friends dont value it etc etc. Yes they can be proud of the one that " went to Trinity" and still not value education.
So the " system" is at a disadvantage in these areas from the off. Many kids only go to school for as long as they have to and for as long as their parents can get introuble if they dont. These kids grow up in a completely different culture to ours. They can spot something is wrong a mile away. They know when the council are coming for their horses before the council hit the estates. Their street smarts are exceptional even though many struggle to read or write.
There is no easy solution as the system as you call it is designed for a society that wants to engage with it and not for those that dont. Its designed to benefit those that engage and value it. These people dont and its generational. They dont believe its for them or that they can benefit them. They fear it as it takes them from their community and comfort zone. How many of us would embrace anything that we fear as much as that?" So you're agreeing that the system isn't the problem?
You're saying that these groups actively choosing not to engage with the system is the issue?
I rest my case.
(Apart from clarifying that I'm not the one who brought up the 'system' initially)
cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5317 - 12/04/2026 22:02:46
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Do children in disadvantaged areas take the odd career guidance class that they get in? And when do they get this advice? Probably after half of them have dropped out. The real evidence, as in 3rd level take up as a percentage of age group population, in area like Tallaght and Ballymun which would be way lower than it is in Blackrock, suggests you are wrong on this point. How much genuine career guidance can 1 person give 30 different people in a few hours spread out over a term? Very little it would appear. [/
The opportunities are there, people have the choice, and career guidance is delivered before students can legally drop out of Secondary school. Your making excuses now and blaming lack of opportunities for decisions people make, when lack of opportunity isn't the problem.
Just out of interest when you say you come from a disadvantaged background, did you come from a disadvantaged area and go to school with others from disadvantaged backgrounds? If not that would explain why you still dont seem to be getting the point Im trying to make.
Yes I did, County Donegal in general is disadvantaged area compared to most Counties, we have been politically isolated since partition, suffering from lack of infrastructure and investment. You look at road map of Ireland, no motorways or dual carriageways to Donegal, no railways. And I went to public funded Secondary school, most other students who attended also came from families who were not well off.
Im not saying it wasnt personal choice. But in your opinion, as you knew these lads and I don't, do you think it was a well informed choice that they made, and was it freely made? Or did they not really know what their choices might mean when they came to be adults?
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 19195 - 12/04/2026 11:08:10
Yeah I think they made well informed choices, and in most cases those people don't regret it one bit and did every bit as well in life as college graduates. There was a variety of reasons for people dropping out of school before Leaving Cert, one major factor was the building boom in the late 90's and 2000s. local contractors were offering 16 year olds who got a tractors license, huge money to draw rubble from sites or just to labour on sites.
To be fair, these people were earning €400 - €500 per week in some cases before I finished school and during my College years, and probably earned a lot more until the bust of 2008-2009. Some got into specific trades and completed apprenticeships and eventually setup their own trade business.
Others just hated school, had no interest, and felt they were wasting time and went and got normal jobs locally in shops, cafes etc. If I spoke to them all individually now, I don't think many would blame the state for lack of opportunity, if anything, some resented having to legally stay in Secondary school longer than they would have wanted.
Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 1730 - 12/04/2026 22:14:49
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Replying To WanPintWin: "It was also very common for rural families not to value engaging with the education system. Children were pulled out of school as soon as they could work. This was also generational, but it has changed. Just because something was tradition doesn't mean it can't be changed.
Most people in those communities know full well the benefits of educating their children. It's not the children who fear it at all. However, it suits the strong patriarchal element in the community to keep everyone in the same cycle." Thats very different to be fair. The rural kids go to school with and mix with others of different economic backgrounds from the same rural community. They know and are friends with kids with ambition to go to college. In fact most kids in my community ( rural and mixed) dont even think about going to college. They just are. Its non negotiable. Thats a very different environment to grow up and be around. Its just not a fair comparison.
Im not arguing that the opportunity isnt there for the kids from disadvantaged areas. They are. The problem is that most of these kids, and their families, are oblivious to them and those that aren't are often intimidated by the prospect. Thats their reality.
Then there is the other reality and that is that they almost never return and live in the areas they come from after graduation and success. While that is progress it doesnt lend itself to being a role model for the next generation when they cant see you daily. The country lad can.
Tadhg2020 (Limerick) - Posts: 192 - 12/04/2026 22:24:30
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