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Good post. We're one of the most equal societies on the planet. People will use any excuse to claim we're not, whereas your own story (and 1000s of others) prove otherwise. cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5308 - 08/04/2026 14:36:00 2665268 Link 1 |
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Telling reference to the Civil Service. Professional Irish middle class with private school background has been a huge barrier to progress in genuine equality of opportunity here for 100 years. They produce very few innovators and actively impeded industrial and social development for decades.
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 4158 - 08/04/2026 15:57:00 2665289 Link 2 |
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I know plenty of people who've come from "disadvantaged" backgrounds and have gone to become very successful because of the opportunities available to them. Opportunities that were available to everyone. What they did have was a work ethic. What they didn't fall back on was a myriad of excuses.
ThePowerhouse (Leitrim) - Posts: 290 - 08/04/2026 16:38:17 2665301 Link 2 |
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Thats not the point. If you come from a more privileged background it all becomes easier. Equality of opportunity means exactly that, it doesn't mean that you have to be luckier, work harder, or sacrifice more just to get the same success as someone from a more privileged background.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 19125 - 08/04/2026 17:02:14 2665304 Link 0 |
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Ah the old bootstrap mantra. The tiny minority of people from disadvantaged backgrounds who become a great success do so in spite of the system not because of it.
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 4398 - 08/04/2026 17:52:13 2665311 Link 1 |
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You are quite right. I too know many such, but I think tour reply to Barneys post is a mile away from the gist of that post.
Freethinker (Wicklow) - Posts: 2202 - 08/04/2026 19:59:27 2665324 Link 2 |
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Agreed. We're competing in a race where some get a headstart, and the majority aren't aware the race is even happening.
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 4398 - 09/04/2026 07:49:32 2665350 Link 0 |
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I wasn't aware that he introduced that, it was a brilliant move, he obviously had the vision to understand the potential of a highly educated Country, in terms of attracting outside investment. The Civil Service doesn't surprise me sadly, we have a bloated admin heavy public sector with inefficiencies which are maintained by the various Unions. Ireland has a shortage of front line healthcare workers, but has an abundance of HSE offices containing admin workers. Its not just the HSE, its the same with Revenue, DSP, ETB etc, they have created bloated admin structures and titles such as "officer", which justify paying basic admin roles anywhere from €40k - €78k for a 35 hour week and once permanent, its near impossible to lose your job. I was shocked recently when i got some insight the pay grades in some of these roles, its a huge drain on public finances, yet it never gets mentioned. Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 1709 - 09/04/2026 08:19:02 2665353 Link 0 |
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What 'system' is in place to prevent those people becoming successful? Free primary education Free secondary education HEAR scheme (which allows them entry into a 3rd level course with LESS points than others) Grants for 3rd level study (SUSI Grant, student assistance fund, 1916 Bursary, free fees initiative, etc.) What exactly is it about the system, and not the individual, that holds them back? cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5308 - 09/04/2026 08:19:25 2665354 Link 2 |
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I disagree with that statement, the opportunities are there, whether or not people avail of them is there own responsibility. I would consider myself proof that the system works, I wasn't spoon fed, I had to pursue my own interests and work part-time. But ultimately the opportunities are there. Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 1709 - 09/04/2026 09:30:35 2665365 Link 0 |
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All those schemes arent available to everyone who qualifies on financial grounds. And lads from poorer families often have to go out to work at 16 or 18 anyway.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 19125 - 09/04/2026 09:33:30 2665367 Link 0 |
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You missed the point. Of course there are lots of people from other than 'privileged' backgrounds who have done well. Despite the stifling attitude of much of the professional and financial elite which did not support the sort of indigenous enterprise that Lemass and others tried to stimulate. It was that attitude that led Lemass to turn to foreign investment. Landlords, barristers, accountants, chartered surveyors and civil service mandarins do not create enterprise and employment. They thrive off getting a cut from those who do. BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 4158 - 09/04/2026 09:58:30 2665373 Link 0 |
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It's not. Its the nonsense that's continuously spouted. People that have every opportunity available to them are quick to come up with the same old excuses as to why they can't or won't. Generations after generations of them.
ThePowerhouse (Leitrim) - Posts: 290 - 09/04/2026 10:01:22 2665374 Link 2 |
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Springboard courses too offer some discounted third level courses.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 8506 - 09/04/2026 10:20:11 2665380 Link 0 |
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Schemes usually have specific criteria for a target demographic etc, but we all have the same opportunities at primary and secondary education and free 3rd level options which are means tested. I disagree with a general statement that most lads from poor families have to go out to work at 16 or 18 anyway, this is usually more to do with personal choice, like maybe because they struggled academically and had no desire to pursue 3rd level education. Most families can still claim children's allowance and other benefits while a child is living at home and not working until they are 18. Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 1709 - 09/04/2026 12:46:42 2665414 Link 0 |
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Enterprise being anything business that exports goods or services abroad, thus bringing cash into the Country, and thus feeding those other services you mentioned. In the past there may not have been sufficient support for indigenous enterprise, but that has changed over the last 20 years, the IDA and other government groups are extremely willing to support any venture that has decent export potential. The problem with Ireland is that we have a super bloated public sector, with too many admin roles, which for some unknown reason are commanding better wages and less work hours than seen in the private sector. Government is afraid to address it, Unions are paid to protect it, and it creates a false wage bubble that is no longer based on the Supply/Demand nature of things. Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 1709 - 09/04/2026 13:21:47 2665421 Link 0 |
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There are generations of families whose only talent is that they own unproductive resources which gives them huge power over economy.
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 4158 - 09/04/2026 13:41:45 2665424 Link 0 |