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Replying To FOX40WHISTLER:  "Reality Cheque

Fine Imposed Cover under Rule 7.7 (c)
(c) In the event of failure to pay a Fine within such period as may be stipulated by the Council or Committee-in-Charge
(either at the time of imposition of the Fine or afterwards), the Unit concerned and/or its Officers shall be liable to
such sanctions as the Council or Committee-in-Charge shall deem appropriate.

Penalty Imposed under Rule 6.24 (c)
A Club/Unit shall be compelled to pay any Fine imposed for loss of revenue by the Committee in-Charge and all vouched reasonable expenses incurred, and failure to do so shall involve a Suspension of forty eight weeks.

Rule 7.11 covers appeals and (f) covers sanction
An Appeal shall be submitted in duplicate to the Secretary of the appellate Hearings Committee, to be received within three days from the date and time of notification of the decision, or, where notification of the decision is not required in Rule, within three days from midnight following the meeting at which the decision is made.

Any penalty which has been imposed shall remain in effect notwithstanding the submission of an Appeal.

Killoe were offered an appeal by Leinster in March and said they were not available, Another Last Friday 7th August and were not available. They were also fined €500 on same night of hearing for a known individual allegedly abusing and threatening a referee to be paid before 31st July also, they paid the €500 on time and not the €750.

Club need to tell all the facts to have any chance, not publicising their version looking for the sympathy vote."
So tell me Derek, in your time refereeing or being involved with Ballymore or in your interactions with the County Board, have you ever known a club to have that blanket 48 week ban applied to them (anywhere in the country in fact) for an infraction such as that outlined? It is a rule of extreme last resort for extreme situations where for example violence was involved, which no reasonable CCC would (or has) ever pull the trigger on lightly, and is total overkill in this particular instance. Folks in this forum can (and do) have opinions on whether the original objection raised by Killoe last year was right or not, but the action taken by the County Board has sent alarm bells ringing across all clubs in terms of what some folks seem to be willing to do when left unchecked, and that is concerning for all clubs in the county, not just Killoe. The action taken is the GAA equivalent of trying to crack a nut with a JCB front loader. The detail from the referee in last years game where the player was sent off, including what he experienced subsequent will be the more interesting and entertaining part of the upcoming hearing. Light is a great healer, and boy does this issue need more light.

arcadia (Longford) - Posts: 163 - 15/08/2020 01:38:27    2287612

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Replying To arcadia:  "So tell me Derek, in your time refereeing or being involved with Ballymore or in your interactions with the County Board, have you ever known a club to have that blanket 48 week ban applied to them (anywhere in the country in fact) for an infraction such as that outlined? It is a rule of extreme last resort for extreme situations where for example violence was involved, which no reasonable CCC would (or has) ever pull the trigger on lightly, and is total overkill in this particular instance. Folks in this forum can (and do) have opinions on whether the original objection raised by Killoe last year was right or not, but the action taken by the County Board has sent alarm bells ringing across all clubs in terms of what some folks seem to be willing to do when left unchecked, and that is concerning for all clubs in the county, not just Killoe. The action taken is the GAA equivalent of trying to crack a nut with a JCB front loader. The detail from the referee in last years game where the player was sent off, including what he experienced subsequent will be the more interesting and entertaining part of the upcoming hearing. Light is a great healer, and boy does this issue need more light."
You're right arcadia, the issue here is the original matter of the interference of refs report, and what happened after, Killoe wanted it looked into, but Co.Board tried to bully them into shutting up. Fair play to Killoe for holding their ground. Sections of the rules contradict other sections, so overturning ban should be easy. Hopefully they get the original matter investigated. The power figures and ex refs would stop at nothing to hold on to their power.

botheyesclosed (Longford) - Posts: 76 - 15/08/2020 09:58:00    2287626

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Replying To botheyesclosed:  "You're right arcadia, the issue here is the original matter of the interference of refs report, and what happened after, Killoe wanted it looked into, but Co.Board tried to bully them into shutting up. Fair play to Killoe for holding their ground. Sections of the rules contradict other sections, so overturning ban should be easy. Hopefully they get the original matter investigated. The power figures and ex refs would stop at nothing to hold on to their power."
Killoe's appeal over the referee's report went to Leinster & was thrown out after a hearing. That was the time to move on & say let's win this on the pitch. The most recent suspension relates only to the non-payment of the fine incurred for failing to turn up for the subsequent county juvenile final.

keeper7 (Longford) - Posts: 3869 - 15/08/2020 11:09:58    2287635

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Replying To keeper7:  "Killoe's appeal over the referee's report went to Leinster & was thrown out after a hearing. That was the time to move on & say let's win this on the pitch. The most recent suspension relates only to the non-payment of the fine incurred for failing to turn up for the subsequent county juvenile final."
That appeal was never heard by leinster. They asked the Co.Board if they could not sort it out themselves. The county board didnt sort it out so the appeal is still outstanding. But if that's what people are happy with, so be it, brush it under the carpet and let the powers that be continue unquestioned. I think this could be good for the whole county if it cleans up our county's governance. But maybe people like the winking and nodding and skullduggery. Asking questions rarely works. A big stance generally gets a proper look at things at the least.

botheyesclosed (Longford) - Posts: 76 - 15/08/2020 12:14:29    2287640

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Replying To botheyesclosed:  "That appeal was never heard by leinster. They asked the Co.Board if they could not sort it out themselves. The county board didnt sort it out so the appeal is still outstanding. But if that's what people are happy with, so be it, brush it under the carpet and let the powers that be continue unquestioned. I think this could be good for the whole county if it cleans up our county's governance. But maybe people like the winking and nodding and skullduggery. Asking questions rarely works. A big stance generally gets a proper look at things at the least."
There's a new CB chairman & CCCC in place since the original appeal so a lot of the "bad apples" are no longer in position to obstruct. This should've been sorted at least 6 months ago.

keeper7 (Longford) - Posts: 3869 - 15/08/2020 12:33:03    2287645

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Replying To keeper7:  "There's a new CB chairman & CCCC in place since the original appeal so a lot of the "bad apples" are no longer in position to obstruct. This should've been sorted at least 6 months ago."
Bad apples on referee-gate might have gone post the last AGM, but the 48-week ban decision was taken by the current committee, not the last one. The current administration has to wear that decision. They looked at the situation and decided with all the information around them and the context of Covid to pull the trigger on that lengthy and extreme ban (something no other CB would in all good sense ever enact without the issue involving very serious circumstances such as violence against payers or officials or similar). They decided to follow that extreme course of action and we can see via the national press coverage how that has been received. That's on the current chairman and the current CCCC. So as well as litigating the bad apples from the previous administration, this hearing will have to litigate the judgement of the current administration too. Which proves that not all the bad apples have gone.

arcadia (Longford) - Posts: 163 - 15/08/2020 14:17:11    2287661

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Replying To arcadia:  "Bad apples on referee-gate might have gone post the last AGM, but the 48-week ban decision was taken by the current committee, not the last one. The current administration has to wear that decision. They looked at the situation and decided with all the information around them and the context of Covid to pull the trigger on that lengthy and extreme ban (something no other CB would in all good sense ever enact without the issue involving very serious circumstances such as violence against payers or officials or similar). They decided to follow that extreme course of action and we can see via the national press coverage how that has been received. That's on the current chairman and the current CCCC. So as well as litigating the bad apples from the previous administration, this hearing will have to litigate the judgement of the current administration too. Which proves that not all the bad apples have gone."
The current CCCC were left with no option, as the rules quoted previously show. Killoe would've known that before it got this far but aren't for turning. Don't forget this is originally about an U16 footballer who was sent off in a minor match being cleared to play in the juvenile final.

keeper7 (Longford) - Posts: 3869 - 15/08/2020 15:20:26    2287667

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Replying To keeper7:  "The current CCCC were left with no option, as the rules quoted previously show. Killoe would've known that before it got this far but aren't for turning. Don't forget this is originally about an U16 footballer who was sent off in a minor match being cleared to play in the juvenile final."
Actually that is not true, the CCCC absolutely were left with an option. The rule book does not legislate any timeline for payment of the fee, that is set by the CCCC who were fully entitled to take account of the outstanding hearing being impacted by Covid, but they decided not to. They could have elected to do what every other County Board in the country would have done in allowing an outstanding hearing to conclude before chasing the fine. Look for a similar 48-week ban precedent anywhere else in the country over the years, you won't find one outside of circumstances where extreme violence or similar was involved. It is not the case that all other clubs around the country are all paying fines on time, many/most who are waiting a hearing on an objection don't practically pay fines until the hearing concludes, and those County Boards do not take extreme measures (hence why you don't see such bans in the news often). The current Longford CCCC and Chairman made a conscious decision to pull the trigger on the most extreme response here, and the motivation for that was vindictive. Hence the dis-proportionality is theirs entirely and Leinster will throw out the ban because of that dis-proportionality.

arcadia (Longford) - Posts: 163 - 15/08/2020 17:04:16    2287678

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Replying To arcadia:  "Actually that is not true, the CCCC absolutely were left with an option. The rule book does not legislate any timeline for payment of the fee, that is set by the CCCC who were fully entitled to take account of the outstanding hearing being impacted by Covid, but they decided not to. They could have elected to do what every other County Board in the country would have done in allowing an outstanding hearing to conclude before chasing the fine. Look for a similar 48-week ban precedent anywhere else in the country over the years, you won't find one outside of circumstances where extreme violence or similar was involved. It is not the case that all other clubs around the country are all paying fines on time, many/most who are waiting a hearing on an objection don't practically pay fines until the hearing concludes, and those County Boards do not take extreme measures (hence why you don't see such bans in the news often). The current Longford CCCC and Chairman made a conscious decision to pull the trigger on the most extreme response here, and the motivation for that was vindictive. Hence the dis-proportionality is theirs entirely and Leinster will throw out the ban because of that dis-proportionality."
So Killoe paid the €500 fine for mentor abusing a referee but COVID-19 prevented them from paying the €750 fine at the same time? Yeah, right. The procedure is always to pay the fine & if you win the appeal you are reimbursed.

keeper7 (Longford) - Posts: 3869 - 16/08/2020 01:02:16    2287709

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Replying To keeper7:  "So Killoe paid the €500 fine for mentor abusing a referee but COVID-19 prevented them from paying the €750 fine at the same time? Yeah, right. The procedure is always to pay the fine & if you win the appeal you are reimbursed."
One fine was not related to an outstanding hearing and was therefore paid, the other was related to an ongoing hearing which would have happened many months ago if not for Covid, but was delayed and has still not been heard. It is not difficult to understand. It is simply not true to say that the procedure is to pay the fine and be reimbursed. Many county boards do not want to manage the hassle of reimbursement, and in 99.9% of occasions the hearing will have taken place before any arbitrary deadline date is set for payment. County Board could have looked at the delay causing the hearing to go past the arbitrary date they set for the fee, but instead they chose to enact the most severe action in the rule book. When Leinster throws the ban out, that disproportional response by the CB will be laid bare. If on the other hand you are correct, then Leinster will uphold the 48-week ban. Lets see who is right here.

arcadia (Longford) - Posts: 163 - 16/08/2020 12:25:59    2287747

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In most cases clubs don't actually pay fines until after an appeal is heard if there is one. In many cases fines even go unpaid. The nuclear option generally is not thrown at them as a result. This is not like most cases, it's a power struggle and actually nothing much to do with Killoe.
Mullinalaghta and Granard are going strong at the minute, not too many would fancy playing either of them after last night.

botheyesclosed (Longford) - Posts: 76 - 16/08/2020 12:36:10    2287750

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In most cases clubs don't actually pay fines until after an appeal is heard if there is one. In many cases fines even go unpaid. The nuclear option generally is not thrown at them as a result. This is not like most cases, it's a power struggle and actually nothing much to do with Killoe.

Mullinalaghta and Granard are going strong at the minute, not too many would fancy playing either of them after last night.

botheyesclosed (Longford) - Posts: 76 - 16/08/2020 12:57:37    2287751

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Replying To arcadia:  "One fine was not related to an outstanding hearing and was therefore paid, the other was related to an ongoing hearing which would have happened many months ago if not for Covid, but was delayed and has still not been heard. It is not difficult to understand. It is simply not true to say that the procedure is to pay the fine and be reimbursed. Many county boards do not want to manage the hassle of reimbursement, and in 99.9% of occasions the hearing will have taken place before any arbitrary deadline date is set for payment. County Board could have looked at the delay causing the hearing to go past the arbitrary date they set for the fee, but instead they chose to enact the most severe action in the rule book. When Leinster throws the ban out, that disproportional response by the CB will be laid bare. If on the other hand you are correct, then Leinster will uphold the 48-week ban. Lets see who is right here."
Read rule 7.11 (f)
Penalty remains in place notwithstanding any appeal.

Killoe decided not to attend appeal in Leinster or whats more baffling is that they didnt have two full members to attend it on that night in March before Covid even came into play.

If you don't read the rule book then you wont understand it only be ignorant to its contents. Perhaps if people spent the same time reading it as they have making comments on this discussion forum then they might understand that the killoe club did not protect the unit, its hard to see how they can enter any forum to try and sort this out. Only two full members can represent any club and at the moment memberships are suspended.
7.5 (e)
Suspension for all other Infractions provided for in Rule or County Bye-Laws means Suspension from all functions,
privileges and Competitions under the Association's control,but not from membership of the Association.

FOX40WHISTLER (Longford) - Posts: 8 - 17/08/2020 13:53:41    2287894

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Perhaps if people spent the same time reading it as they have making comments on this discussion forum then they might understand that the killoe club did not protect the unit, its hard to see how they can enter any forum to try and sort this out. Only two full members can represent any club and at the moment memberships are suspended.

7.5 (e) Suspension for all other Infractions provided for in Rule or County Bye-Laws means Suspension from all functions, privileges and Competitions under the Association's control,but not from membership of the Association."


Are you not contradicting yourself there, Derek?

TurnipAyter (Longford) - Posts: 114 - 17/08/2020 14:31:36    2287900

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Replying To FOX40WHISTLER:  "Read rule 7.11 (f)
Penalty remains in place notwithstanding any appeal.

Killoe decided not to attend appeal in Leinster or whats more baffling is that they didnt have two full members to attend it on that night in March before Covid even came into play.

If you don't read the rule book then you wont understand it only be ignorant to its contents. Perhaps if people spent the same time reading it as they have making comments on this discussion forum then they might understand that the killoe club did not protect the unit, its hard to see how they can enter any forum to try and sort this out. Only two full members can represent any club and at the moment memberships are suspended.
7.5 (e)
Suspension for all other Infractions provided for in Rule or County Bye-Laws means Suspension from all functions,
privileges and Competitions under the Association's control,but not from membership of the Association."
Date for payment of the fee was at discretion of the CCCC. Decision not to push that out with hearing not yet held due to Covid, was again at discretion of CCCC. County Board consciously decided to apply the most extreme elements of the rule book via 48 week ban, something no other county board in the country would have been foolish enough to have done. Now either Leinster or Croker will decide if that judgement was wise or not. The public square has already decided it to be a nonsense decision, the upcoming hearing will conclude likewise. Then, Derek, we will finally get to focus on what happened with the referee in question and what needs to be done about that rot in the system.

arcadia (Longford) - Posts: 163 - 17/08/2020 16:55:00    2287931

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Granard very exciting in second half against Abbey. Will be concerned tho about how long it took them to get going in the first half. Abbey v Dromard might now be a cracker. Mullinalaghta seem like they are finding their form. It's gonna be an eventful Championship. Rathcline could pull off a surprise win this weekend, but it will probably not matter much.

arcadia (Longford) - Posts: 163 - 17/08/2020 17:11:51    2287936

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Another weekend of championship done, fair play to granard, will give anyone a game. Get Carberry and Ryan Casey would have have well well tuned. Group 2 in intermediate very tight, could go to scoring difference. What will happen if Killoe game isn't played this weekend will it be pushed back or any word on when appeal will take place.

Longfordpat (Longford) - Posts: 13 - 17/08/2020 18:37:41    2287950

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Another weekend of championship done, fair play to granard, will give anyone a game. Get Carberry and Ryan Casey would have have well well tuned. Group 2 in intermediate very tight, could go to scoring difference. What will happen if Killoe game isn't played this weekend will it be pushed back or any word on when appeal will take place.

Longfordpat (Longford) - Posts: 13 - 17/08/2020 18:39:48    2287951

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Is Carberry not banned, he was on the line at the weekend, a case for Abbey to persue. Killoe U14 team were in action also, I take it they had adult mentors, maybe they came in from other clubs. If Northern or Southern Geals were the club in question, would all of their accosiated senior clubs be suspended? If your going to quote and implement rules, surely consistency and policing of consequences is as important. The more you look at it, the more ludicrous it is. It'll be overturned, and hopefully it'll throw the spotlight on the bad eggs. Looks like a meeting is taking place Friday.

botheyesclosed (Longford) - Posts: 76 - 18/08/2020 22:43:28    2288164

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Replying To botheyesclosed:  "Is Carberry not banned, he was on the line at the weekend, a case for Abbey to persue. Killoe U14 team were in action also, I take it they had adult mentors, maybe they came in from other clubs. If Northern or Southern Geals were the club in question, would all of their accosiated senior clubs be suspended? If your going to quote and implement rules, surely consistency and policing of consequences is as important. The more you look at it, the more ludicrous it is. It'll be overturned, and hopefully it'll throw the spotlight on the bad eggs. Looks like a meeting is taking place Friday."
Looking at the fixtures/results on the Longford website, Killoe U14 team are not in any official competition until 8th September when the U14 A Championship starts. Looking at the results section, there has been no official competition involving any Killoe team since before the ban. Lets see what Friday's mediation meeting brings. Hopefully an end to this ludicrous nonsense and a return to normal action on the field.

Dromard v Abbeylara the pick of the weekend games, and is streaming too. Should be entertaining.

arcadia (Longford) - Posts: 163 - 19/08/2020 11:09:09    2288221

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