Wexford Forum

18 Year Old Players

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Replying To icehonesty:  "What's that rule?"
Been around for 3 years now with slight tweaks.....

For the championship group stages if an Under 18 plays with his club's first team he can still drop back to play with the second team on a different weekend later in the group stages.
Likewise if the highest grade he plays is with the clubs 2nd team then he can drop back and play with the clubs 3rd team.
However once a player lines out with the higher grade in a quarter final he can no longer drop back to play in the lower grade.

The new amendment brought in this year was that a player couldn't go back 2 grades. So if an 18 year old plays with the 1st team he cannot subsequently play with the clubs 3rd or 4th teams.

For the first 2 years the player could only play one game per weekend, but due to the limited number of games this year that rule was relaxed.

Onfor15 (Wexford) - Posts: 233 - 24/09/2020 19:29:29    2293961

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Replying To Onfor15:  "Been around for 3 years now with slight tweaks.....

For the championship group stages if an Under 18 plays with his club's first team he can still drop back to play with the second team on a different weekend later in the group stages.
Likewise if the highest grade he plays is with the clubs 2nd team then he can drop back and play with the clubs 3rd team.
However once a player lines out with the higher grade in a quarter final he can no longer drop back to play in the lower grade.

The new amendment brought in this year was that a player couldn't go back 2 grades. So if an 18 year old plays with the 1st team he cannot subsequently play with the clubs 3rd or 4th teams.

For the first 2 years the player could only play one game per weekend, but due to the limited number of games this year that rule was relaxed."
To Onfor15;
While some of the best lads who remained playing did get more games with adult teams, they did keep older lads on the line, so that's a problem, particularly this year when there was a great pickup of mid 20's lads coming back.
Another problem was that you had some 17 year olds getting absolutely creamed in junior matches and missing half the summer,
and then finally you have their friends who have quit because there is no u18 grade and they are hanging around the pitch with hurls wishing they could take part.
The only people benefiting from this are the very few really talented lads, and the local soccer teams, (where the lads still bring their hurls!)
Surely there is a better way ? Other counties have switched back, why can't we?

OfficerDibble (Wexford) - Posts: 7 - 25/09/2020 14:56:38    2294041

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Replying To OfficerDibble:  "To Onfor15;
While some of the best lads who remained playing did get more games with adult teams, they did keep older lads on the line, so that's a problem, particularly this year when there was a great pickup of mid 20's lads coming back.
Another problem was that you had some 17 year olds getting absolutely creamed in junior matches and missing half the summer,
and then finally you have their friends who have quit because there is no u18 grade and they are hanging around the pitch with hurls wishing they could take part.
The only people benefiting from this are the very few really talented lads, and the local soccer teams, (where the lads still bring their hurls!)
Surely there is a better way ? Other counties have switched back, why can't we?"
Totally disagree, it is certainly not only benefitting the really talented lads. In my experience it is mainly benefitting the middle of the road guy who needs plenty of game opportunity at adult level to improve.

In a normal year they can also play with all adult teams in the league.

It's all down to how the club decides to treat their own players. If a club has so many lads that they have 18 year olds hanging around the pitch wishing they could take part, then the club clearly isn't entering enough teams at adult level or doing enough to keep them lads on board. Clubs have to take responsibility for their own.


And what do you mean some 17 year olds getting creamed in junior matches? Total myth

Onfor15 (Wexford) - Posts: 233 - 25/09/2020 15:49:21    2294053

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I reckon OfficerDibble's issue here is with the change back to U-17 rather than with the rule that allows free grading in a player's first year at adult level, and a look back at the first page of posts confirms that.

Fair enough. It's a view held by many.

But OfficerDibble, would you have a look at my own first post on that page (it's the third one down), and let me know your thoughts?

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 410 - 25/09/2020 17:17:03    2294078

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By the way, and for what it's worth, my own view is that the main advantage of the change to U-17 (that adult championships can no longer be delayed by underage ones, and vice versa) far outweighs the main disadvantage of it (that some lads now drift away a year earlier than was previously case). To me, it's definitely the lesser of two evils.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 410 - 25/09/2020 17:21:33    2294080

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "By the way, and for what it's worth, my own view is that the main advantage of the change to U-17 (that adult championships can no longer be delayed by underage ones, and vice versa) far outweighs the main disadvantage of it (that some lads now drift away a year earlier than was previously case). To me, it's definitely the lesser of two evils."
thats a valid point that gets overlooked the whole time. Not only were adult games held up, but minor championships were running way late into the year.

Also what is happening, is the speaking out of both sides of the mouth as seen above. Firstly, we were told that by not allowing under 17s/minors play adult level, that clubs would fold as they wouldnt have enough to field a team. Now people are saying the gap is too big between grades and they arent ready to play adult level and are getting "creamed". So which is it? Are they to play adult or not? Pointing out that they go play soccer now, what age level is that at or how does it affect them not playing GAA?

james2011 (Wexford) - Posts: 558 - 28/09/2020 11:15:49    2294473

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "I reckon OfficerDibble's issue here is with the change back to U-17 rather than with the rule that allows free grading in a player's first year at adult level, and a look back at the first page of posts confirms that.

Fair enough. It's a view held by many.

But OfficerDibble, would you have a look at my own first post on that page (it's the third one down), and let me know your thoughts?"
Hi Pikeman, yes, that is a good point, I get that some players might be drifting away anyway a year later.
I would love the GAA to prioritise the player drop off issue, as it seems to be seen as something the GAA and us members just put up with.
You would have a better chance to keep some of them if they are competing in cups and shields at this time of the year in a minor championship.

(God it was great to see so many older lads back this year due to covid shutting down the country, would be great to keeping all these lads)

OfficerDibble (Wexford) - Posts: 7 - 28/09/2020 12:18:48    2294488

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Replying To james2011:  "thats a valid point that gets overlooked the whole time. Not only were adult games held up, but minor championships were running way late into the year.

Also what is happening, is the speaking out of both sides of the mouth as seen above. Firstly, we were told that by not allowing under 17s/minors play adult level, that clubs would fold as they wouldnt have enough to field a team. Now people are saying the gap is too big between grades and they arent ready to play adult level and are getting "creamed". So which is it? Are they to play adult or not? Pointing out that they go play soccer now, what age level is that at or how does it affect them not playing GAA?"
The lesser of 2 evils; I would disagree
on one hand you have a very difficult administration and fixturing issue,
on the other side you have a bunch of young lads leaving because their final year of underage hurling has been cancelled.

As for minor championships going late into the year, I don't see what the problem is here, the young lads love it the longer goes on. I don't think they see it as an 'evil'. Who does? (I hope there are autumn/winter competitions like the Martin Storey cup this year, looks like there will be no schools competitions or academies this winter)

Some 17 year olds are ready, some are not, have a look at any of the pics of teams in the guardian for all the finals at the moment, there are all shapes and sizes. The lads who are ready can play adult, let them on, the lads who are not, well the question is what do we want to do with them?
As for the fact that they play soccer, I guess it shows that they want to play sport, and that is what they see as their only option, ( even though they don't seem to go anywhere without their hurls!)

I guess I think we all should be making a better effort as keeping them in the GAA, even it means more work for fixtures and some delays.

Thanks for your replies.

OfficerDibble (Wexford) - Posts: 7 - 28/09/2020 13:07:17    2294508

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Thanks Officer, for saying I make at least one good point! :)

On this point of yours:
As for minor championships going late into the year, I don't see what the problem is here, the young lads love it the longer goes on. I don't think they see it as an 'evil'.

Back in 2017 (the last year before the change to U17), my own club's minors made a county hurling final. We'd played a couple of group games in March/April before the break for the Leaving Cert, and then the rest of the group games in July/August. We then also played our quarter-final in August.

But we had to wait until the middle of October for our semi-final, and then until the second half of November for the final, because of how both ourselves and at least one of the other teams involved in the minor semi-finals/final were still involved at adult level too, with minor players on those adult panels.

I think the problem there is obvious, and I can guarantee you that the lads didn't love it the longer the wait in between games went on. In fact, it was a monumental pain in the you-know-whats to be hurling regularly during the summer but then having to wait until cold and miserable wet days in October and November for the biggest games of the year.

Bear in mind we couldn't even train midweek for a county semi-final or final without having to pay to rent a venue with floodlights, because our own weren't good enough for hurling. So that added expense on clubs is another part of the problem too.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 410 - 28/09/2020 15:12:01    2294543

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Replying To OfficerDibble:  "The lesser of 2 evils; I would disagree
on one hand you have a very difficult administration and fixturing issue,
on the other side you have a bunch of young lads leaving because their final year of underage hurling has been cancelled.

As for minor championships going late into the year, I don't see what the problem is here, the young lads love it the longer goes on. I don't think they see it as an 'evil'. Who does? (I hope there are autumn/winter competitions like the Martin Storey cup this year, looks like there will be no schools competitions or academies this winter)

Some 17 year olds are ready, some are not, have a look at any of the pics of teams in the guardian for all the finals at the moment, there are all shapes and sizes. The lads who are ready can play adult, let them on, the lads who are not, well the question is what do we want to do with them?
As for the fact that they play soccer, I guess it shows that they want to play sport, and that is what they see as their only option, ( even though they don't seem to go anywhere without their hurls!)

I guess I think we all should be making a better effort as keeping them in the GAA, even it means more work for fixtures and some delays.

Thanks for your replies."
I dont disagree that there needs to be more done to stop a drop off, but sometimes lads when they get to 17/18 just dont want to play anymore. Its a natural thing, women, drink, college/work whatever and the friendship they may have had with lads dissipates as they play on different grades now when finished underage.

But the minor championship used to be awful. Starting early on in the year with Jim Byrne cup and then a prolonged championship that could span 8 months but only have 6 games played in it. Thats no good. The likes of the Forde/Story tournaments are another great addition to keep more games going for clubs who have the numbers and interest to play more games. Similar with the younger tournament, the rising stars for players on the fringes of their clubs teams.

I still dont buy the soccer thing. If they are old enough to play soccer, they are old enough to play GAA. If they have more of an interest in soccer, then so be it. Cant force people to play games they dont want to.

the issue is there needs to be a bridging team between minor and adult. U21 was that, then U20. Some counties like Kilkenny are trialling U19. But we in Wexford dont pay much respect to that age group. And thats not a county issue, thats down to clubs. And I can see why it is hard, it is played with players who for the most part are not at home as much. Either in college, or J1 in the summer or working or whatever and they may already be playing adult so there is never a good time to run it off. Until they can get that age sector right, we will always have this issue, regardless of what minor or adult grades do.

james2011 (Wexford) - Posts: 558 - 28/09/2020 15:18:46    2294547

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Replying To james2011:  "I dont disagree that there needs to be more done to stop a drop off, but sometimes lads when they get to 17/18 just dont want to play anymore. Its a natural thing, women, drink, college/work whatever and the friendship they may have had with lads dissipates as they play on different grades now when finished underage.

But the minor championship used to be awful. Starting early on in the year with Jim Byrne cup and then a prolonged championship that could span 8 months but only have 6 games played in it. Thats no good. The likes of the Forde/Story tournaments are another great addition to keep more games going for clubs who have the numbers and interest to play more games. Similar with the younger tournament, the rising stars for players on the fringes of their clubs teams.

I still dont buy the soccer thing. If they are old enough to play soccer, they are old enough to play GAA. If they have more of an interest in soccer, then so be it. Cant force people to play games they dont want to.

the issue is there needs to be a bridging team between minor and adult. U21 was that, then U20. Some counties like Kilkenny are trialling U19. But we in Wexford dont pay much respect to that age group. And thats not a county issue, thats down to clubs. And I can see why it is hard, it is played with players who for the most part are not at home as much. Either in college, or J1 in the summer or working or whatever and they may already be playing adult so there is never a good time to run it off. Until they can get that age sector right, we will always have this issue, regardless of what minor or adult grades do."
Yes, Jim Byrne cup was shite, but the u18 championship itself was pretty good, quite competitive with a good bit of training and had tidier hurling than junior and junior b which is where these lads end up.
As for the soccer thing, they are old enough to play u18 soccer and too old enough to play u17gaa, so you are comparing adult sport with underage sport. That's my whole point.
Most lads of that age play both, except for the underage lads who have no underage gaa for them. That's not forcing anyone to play a sport they don't want to, more like forcing them not to play a sport that they do want to. This is probably the age that they choose the one sport they stick with, so showing them the door before they choose is not the best way to retain them,

Interestingly, the wexford gaa website lists the u17 competitions as juvenile, and there are no minor competition. Sums it up for me.
That is the truth of it, had a u17 final recently where the goalie and full back line were all 14 (as were a few others) being cheered on by a bunch of 17 year olds on the line who are over age.

You're right about U21/U20, and it is unlikely to ever be resolved, so canning the old minor championship has not helped that issue either, u20 has actually been worse in the clubs around here than u21.

OfficerDibble (Wexford) - Posts: 7 - 28/09/2020 17:44:37    2294588

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Replying To OfficerDibble:  "Yes, Jim Byrne cup was shite, but the u18 championship itself was pretty good, quite competitive with a good bit of training and had tidier hurling than junior and junior b which is where these lads end up.
As for the soccer thing, they are old enough to play u18 soccer and too old enough to play u17gaa, so you are comparing adult sport with underage sport. That's my whole point.
Most lads of that age play both, except for the underage lads who have no underage gaa for them. That's not forcing anyone to play a sport they don't want to, more like forcing them not to play a sport that they do want to. This is probably the age that they choose the one sport they stick with, so showing them the door before they choose is not the best way to retain them,

Interestingly, the wexford gaa website lists the u17 competitions as juvenile, and there are no minor competition. Sums it up for me.
That is the truth of it, had a u17 final recently where the goalie and full back line were all 14 (as were a few others) being cheered on by a bunch of 17 year olds on the line who are over age.

You're right about U21/U20, and it is unlikely to ever be resolved, so canning the old minor championship has not helped that issue either, u20 has actually been worse in the clubs around here than u21."
You are totally inconsistent in your arguments.

You have argued that 18 year olds aren't able to make the step up to adult hurling and give up. So your solution is to go back to the old way, where minor is under 18 and where under 17s and under 18s can play adult? If your argument is that 18 year olds aren't up to adult, then the solution should be to return minor to under 18, but ban minors from playing adult and that adult starts at 19.

And you said "had a u17 final recently where the goalie and full back line were all 14 (as were a few others) being cheered on by a bunch of 17 year olds on the line who are over age."

You will have this at every age group, because of the time of year certain lads are born. It's irrelevant to this discussion.

And whether someone decided to call under 17 minor or juvenile is totally irrelevant too. It's just a name.

Onfor15 (Wexford) - Posts: 233 - 28/09/2020 18:54:23    2294609

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I'll point out something from the other end of the age spectrum that I don't think there's ever been enough attention on, and where I think soccer does have an advantage.

Previously, there were official competitions run at four underage age groups: U12, U14, U16, and U18.

Now they're run at just three: U13, U15, and U17. I reckon that by rights, there should be competition at U11 too (it's the equivalent of what U12 used to be, in the same way U17 is today's equivalent of the former U18).

I know all about Go Games and the importance of just taking part up to a certain age, but young lads around the age of 10 or 11 would love the chance to play "proper" competitions to get the chance of being in a county final and win a county medal too, and now they have to wait until U13 for that chance.

Am not involved in underage soccer myself but I believe they run "proper" leagues and cups at age groups as young as U9, or maybe even younger. So for any 9 or 10 year old, the chance to play soccer and maybe win a league or cup medal is probably more attractive than playing football or hurling in what's basically a series of practice matches.

Just throwing it out there.......

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 410 - 28/09/2020 19:25:40    2294613

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The U17 competition in Wexford is still called minor and that is what is on the website too, so I'm not sure what that has to do with anything particularly being incorrect.

As noted, arguments are all over the place here. Point has been made enough at this stage, there are valid points to all situations, but at the moment, this one is working ok. There are pros and cons to all situations.

With regards to the U11s, they play a lot of blitzes and competitions, but no actual county title. I dont think it is any harm. I see it in clubs, and my own as well. Where the coaches who are there and have their young lad on the team and they do everything they can to win at all costs. And at that age, winning shouldnt be priority, it should be development and participation. By removing the U12 co championship with U11 blitzes and friendlies, it automatically takes away a certain amount of win at all costs. But even still, I see coaches going out wanting to win all their games and focusing on the wins rather than the development. The point made is will a young lad prefer to be winning titles at 9 or 10 or playing games? Hard to know, but I think you will end up with better numbers with a more rounded approach.

james2011 (Wexford) - Posts: 558 - 29/09/2020 10:03:17    2294689

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I wouldn't put too much pass on where exactly competition results appear on the Wexford GAA website. Having U17 results appear under the search for juvenile instead of minor is no different to a couple of other quare yokes there.

For example -
Search for Senior Football 2020, and you'll also get results of Gorey District Junior B Football.
Search for Senior Football or Senior Hurling for any other year, and you'll also get all the results of the All County Leagues all the way down to Division 7, even though Division 7 is a long way from senior too.

U17 is still minor at the end of the day. It's just categorised wrongly on the website. It's not a deliberate attempt to have people think of the U17 grade as "juvenile" instead, any more than we're supposed to think of Gorey District Junior B as being senior football, or an ACHL Division 7 match as being senior hurling.

As regards 11-year-olds - yeah, you have to draw the line somewhere between the Go Games model and the championships model. And it's a bit like the U17s/U18s thing, with some pros and cons on both sides. As I said, I was just throwing it out there........

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 410 - 29/09/2020 11:05:51    2294701

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Replying To Onfor15:  "You are totally inconsistent in your arguments.

You have argued that 18 year olds aren't able to make the step up to adult hurling and give up. So your solution is to go back to the old way, where minor is under 18 and where under 17s and under 18s can play adult? If your argument is that 18 year olds aren't up to adult, then the solution should be to return minor to under 18, but ban minors from playing adult and that adult starts at 19.

And you said "had a u17 final recently where the goalie and full back line were all 14 (as were a few others) being cheered on by a bunch of 17 year olds on the line who are over age."

You will have this at every age group, because of the time of year certain lads are born. It's irrelevant to this discussion.

And whether someone decided to call under 17 minor or juvenile is totally irrelevant too. It's just a name."
Could'nt be more consistent, maybe I'm not explaining it very well.
- My argument is that some 18 year olds can make the step up, and some cannot, so cater for them both, as it used to be.
You dont agree and that's fine.
- with regard to the u17 final, yes there was 14 year olds playing who were 14 at the end of the year, and there were 17 and 18 year olds watching from the line who could have been out there. Nothing to do with the time of year they were born, you've missed my point here. The same 17/18 year olds who still play were on the line for juniors since. That's a lot of standing around.
Anyway, you are happy with the new system and made your points on it well , cheers.

OfficerDibble (Wexford) - Posts: 7 - 29/09/2020 11:29:05    2294704

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I wouldn't put too much pass on where exactly competition results appear on the Wexford GAA website. Having U17 results appear under the search for juvenile instead of minor is no different to a couple of other quare yokes there.

For example -
Search for Senior Football 2020, and you'll also get results of Gorey District Junior B Football.
Search for Senior Football or Senior Hurling for any other year, and you'll also get all the results of the All County Leagues all the way down to Division 7, even though Division 7 is a long way from senior too.

U17 is still minor at the end of the day. It's just categorised wrongly on the website. It's not a deliberate attempt to have people think of the U17 grade as "juvenile" instead, any more than we're supposed to think of Gorey District Junior B as being senior football, or an ACHL Division 7 match as being senior hurling.

As regards 11-year-olds - yeah, you have to draw the line somewhere between the Go Games model and the championships model. And it's a bit like the U17s/U18s thing, with some pros and cons on both sides. As I said, I was just throwing it out there........

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 410 - 29/09/2020 11:30:41    2294705

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "I wouldn't put too much pass on where exactly competition results appear on the Wexford GAA website. Having U17 results appear under the search for juvenile instead of minor is no different to a couple of other quare yokes there.

For example -
Search for Senior Football 2020, and you'll also get results of Gorey District Junior B Football.
Search for Senior Football or Senior Hurling for any other year, and you'll also get all the results of the All County Leagues all the way down to Division 7, even though Division 7 is a long way from senior too.

U17 is still minor at the end of the day. It's just categorised wrongly on the website. It's not a deliberate attempt to have people think of the U17 grade as "juvenile" instead, any more than we're supposed to think of Gorey District Junior B as being senior football, or an ACHL Division 7 match as being senior hurling.

As regards 11-year-olds - yeah, you have to draw the line somewhere between the Go Games model and the championships model. And it's a bit like the U17s/U18s thing, with some pros and cons on both sides. As I said, I was just throwing it out there........"
Agree with you there.

Although, I do think there is a conspiracy to pass off Gorey District Junior B as Senior football.

OfficerDibble (Wexford) - Posts: 7 - 29/09/2020 11:38:35    2294706

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