National Forum

Is It Time To Bury Provincial Hurling Championships- At Senior Level

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It should be an open draw for years Kilkenny only had to peak for two games a year semi and final so poor was the opposition in leinster before galway joined and dubs got act together whereas in Munster tipp Clare cork waterford limerick for years were well capable of beating each other on their day to qualify for semi ...and was even more lop sided pre back door ...

Hitnhurl (Cork) - Posts: 92 - 10/08/2019 18:30:31    2223461

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Replying To ballydalane:  "Then losing a provincial final would barely make a blind bit of difference, the loser would just have to play a McDonagh team in the QF and they're into the SF."
I get your point. It just annoys me that in a round robin group of 5, 3 come out. Maybe you're right.winners of both provincials straight to final and be done with it.

Buachaillbui (Clare) - Posts: 95 - 11/08/2019 23:20:42    2224362

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I'd have Muns seeds 1,4,5 grouped with Lein 2,3 - and vice versa - top 3 of 5 from each to AI QFs - BUT - also, top team from each Prov in each group to respective Prov Finals as well for 2 remaining AI QF berths - most likely - Champs 'double up' to AI SFs instead.
Option - Add a 6th team to each Prov as well (2,3,6) - tbe Muns 6th team could be from Lein.

Do similar for AI SFC - Merge Uls 1,4 or Conn 1,4 with Lein 2,3 or Muns 2,3 and vice versa - add 1 of 4 remaining teams from NFL top 20 teams to each group - to complete 4 groups of 5 - top 3 of 5 from each to KO Rd of 16 -
BUT - also, top team from each Prov in each group to respective Prov Finals as well for 4 remaining AI QF berths - most likely - Champs 'double up' to AI QFs instead.
Remaining NFL lower 12 teams to 4 local groups of 3 (double round robin) - Final 2 to 4x5 in Race for Sam in following year.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1826 - 12/08/2019 02:48:46    2224413

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A super 10's format would work really well in hurling. Play provincial championships off on a knock out basis and then throw the 10 Leinster and Munster teams into a hat and draw 2 groups of 5 with the top 2 in each group into the semi finals. Provincial winners in different groups with the runners up going in with the winner from the other province.

Bottom 2 teams playoff for relegation with McDonagh winners coming up the following year. It would completely take away the narrative that Munster teams have it harder etc etc and no uneven breaks for semi finalists.

Faithfull (Offaly) - Posts: 573 - 12/08/2019 09:18:40    2224448

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Replying To Hitnhurl:  "It should be an open draw for years Kilkenny only had to peak for two games a year semi and final so poor was the opposition in leinster before galway joined and dubs got act together whereas in Munster tipp Clare cork waterford limerick for years were well capable of beating each other on their day to qualify for semi ...and was even more lop sided pre back door ..."
But surely the Munster teams were "battle hardened" and Kilkenny were "rusty"?

And why can't the Munster champions STILL not win their All Ireland semi finals? Surely a 4 or 5 week break is enough time for them to "peak"?

Or is it simply a case that the excuses change to fit the circumstances, and losing teams will always find an excuse?

PS your post forgets that the provincial champions, up until 2007, had to play a QF against a team from the qualifiers. That wasn't good enough for Munster who demanded their champions go straight to the AI SF, which of course duly happened. And now they're complaining that their champions are coming into the AI SF "rusty" against teams that have had a QF (the same QFs that they didn't want their champions to play!).

Can't have it every way, lads!

ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1112 - 12/08/2019 10:15:33    2224497

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Replying To ballydalane:  "But surely the Munster teams were "battle hardened" and Kilkenny were "rusty"?

And why can't the Munster champions STILL not win their All Ireland semi finals? Surely a 4 or 5 week break is enough time for them to "peak"?

Or is it simply a case that the excuses change to fit the circumstances, and losing teams will always find an excuse?

PS your post forgets that the provincial champions, up until 2007, had to play a QF against a team from the qualifiers. That wasn't good enough for Munster who demanded their champions go straight to the AI SF, which of course duly happened. And now they're complaining that their champions are coming into the AI SF "rusty" against teams that have had a QF (the same QFs that they didn't want their champions to play!).

Can't have it every way, lads!"
Look end of that cody for YEARS had to only win two games a year for all ireland and that's fact everything else is nonsense

Hitnhurl (Cork) - Posts: 92 - 12/08/2019 10:49:17    2224522

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Replying To Hitnhurl:  "Look end of that cody for YEARS had to only win two games a year for all ireland and that's fact everything else is nonsense"
Your argument is nonsense. They gave every team in Munster and Galway a clipping at some stage over the last 15 years, not just the teams in Leinster. They were arguably the greatest team of all time and in the same period probably had some of the greatest players of all time in the same team. A team so strong TJ Reid and Richie Hogan couldn't get into the starting 15. Two players who have gone on to win hurler of the year with TJ up there in DJ Carey god status in Kilkenny!

Faithfull (Offaly) - Posts: 573 - 12/08/2019 12:00:42    2224564

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Replying To Hitnhurl:  "Look end of that cody for YEARS had to only win two games a year for all ireland and that's fact everything else is nonsense"
Not really. Kilkenny had to win QF, SF and final up to 07. Then Munster started whinging that their team should get straight into the AI SF, which of course had to be extended to Leinster.

Galway were introduced into Leinster in 09 to give Kilkenny some competition but of course Kilkenny still went on to win another 5 All Irelands, 4 as Leinster champs.

Anyway, I always find Cork lads always have excuses, hence all the strikes when Kilkenny started winning. Couldn't fecking handle it, drove 'em nuts.

ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1112 - 12/08/2019 13:18:49    2224623

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Replying To Faithfull:  "Your argument is nonsense. They gave every team in Munster and Galway a clipping at some stage over the last 15 years, not just the teams in Leinster. They were arguably the greatest team of all time and in the same period probably had some of the greatest players of all time in the same team. A team so strong TJ Reid and Richie Hogan couldn't get into the starting 15. Two players who have gone on to win hurler of the year with TJ up there in DJ Carey god status in Kilkenny!"
If u boys or wexford copped urselfs on and had decent teams it might have been a decent leinster championship for years.....Yes they gave muster teams a clipping after a gruelling muster championship and they all rested up after cakewalk but muster teams also gave kk many a thumping too at least were competitive pal

Hitnhurl (Cork) - Posts: 92 - 12/08/2019 14:24:03    2224658

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Replying To ballydalane:  "Not really. Kilkenny had to win QF, SF and final up to 07. Then Munster started whinging that their team should get straight into the AI SF, which of course had to be extended to Leinster.

Galway were introduced into Leinster in 09 to give Kilkenny some competition but of course Kilkenny still went on to win another 5 All Irelands, 4 as Leinster champs.

Anyway, I always find Cork lads always have excuses, hence all the strikes when Kilkenny started winning. Couldn't fecking handle it, drove 'em nuts."
Two games pal two games great achievement

Hitnhurl (Cork) - Posts: 92 - 12/08/2019 14:25:05    2224660

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Replying To Hitnhurl:  "If u boys or wexford copped urselfs on and had decent teams it might have been a decent leinster championship for years.....Yes they gave muster teams a clipping after a gruelling muster championship and they all rested up after cakewalk but muster teams also gave kk many a thumping too at least were competitive pal"
Playing a game or 2 in Munster is hardly grueling! People are complaining that Limerick and Wexford had too much of a break, now your saying KK only were successful because they had a break. If anything Munster teams should have been better prepared for having the games.

Faithfull (Offaly) - Posts: 573 - 12/08/2019 14:57:36    2224680

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Replying To ballydalane:  "Not really. Kilkenny had to win QF, SF and final up to 07. Then Munster started whinging that their team should get straight into the AI SF, which of course had to be extended to Leinster.

Galway were introduced into Leinster in 09 to give Kilkenny some competition but of course Kilkenny still went on to win another 5 All Irelands, 4 as Leinster champs.

Anyway, I always find Cork lads always have excuses, hence all the strikes when Kilkenny started winning. Couldn't fecking handle it, drove 'em nuts."
There's no point bringing Cork into it. You can tell from the dialect used that they are no more from Cork than I am.

Faithfull (Offaly) - Posts: 573 - 12/08/2019 15:00:01    2224682

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Replying To Buachaillbui:  "I get your point. It just annoys me that in a round robin group of 5, 3 come out. Maybe you're right.winners of both provincials straight to final and be done with it."
Why would you want to just be done with it. Do you not enjoy watching good hurling matches? Have the quarter and semi finals not satisfied you the last 2 years?

Jack_Goff (Meath) - Posts: 2920 - 12/08/2019 17:05:54    2224763

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Replying To Faithfull:  "Playing a game or 2 in Munster is hardly grueling! People are complaining that Limerick and Wexford had too much of a break, now your saying KK only were successful because they had a break. If anything Munster teams should have been better prepared for having the games."
Just goes to show, excuses can be changed to suit the circumstances, even if they completely contradict each other.

Limerick (or pick most any other Munster champion in the past decade) lose their all Ireland semi final after a 4/5 week break ("they were rusty", "they lost their sharpness", "the other team was battle hardened").

Kilkenny win their semi final after a 4/5 week break ("they were rested", "they were able to "peak"", "their opponents were burnt out").

Go figure!

ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1112 - 12/08/2019 21:11:43    2224902

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Replying To Faithfull:  "There's no point bringing Cork into it. You can tell from the dialect used that they are no more from Cork than I am."
Maybe you're right, it could be a cover. Wish he'd go on strike, though.

ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1112 - 12/08/2019 21:12:48    2224903

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Replying To Jack_Goff:  "Why would you want to just be done with it. Do you not enjoy watching good hurling matches? Have the quarter and semi finals not satisfied you the last 2 years?"
Yes but not at the price of devaluing the whole competition which I feel it does. Losing a Munster Final used to seem like your heart had been crushed ( usually by bloody Cork) , it would take months to get over, now people leave and its oh well, an extra match and we're back where we want to be.

I hate the backdoor , it supplements the stronger teams (they're rarely beaten twice or three times as it seems to be now). How many times can a team be beaten before they're actually out. I understand change happens , game evolves, moves on/rules changes etc.

It feels like the trad counties( Clare included) are keeping hurling to themselves and not spreading the game which I think should always be the focus. Qf and Sf are good money spinners. Yes there have been great games but some bad ones too. Clare/Wex was awful like a training match last yr. The Qf/S/f feels like it's really when people think the championship has begun, before that it's just shadow boxing. Has the game really grown in the last 20yrs since the backdoor came in. I feel it hasn't. Anyways ,just my opinion here, not claiming to own the truth.

Buachaillbui (Clare) - Posts: 95 - 12/08/2019 21:56:10    2224924

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Replying To Buachaillbui:  "Yes but not at the price of devaluing the whole competition which I feel it does. Losing a Munster Final used to seem like your heart had been crushed ( usually by bloody Cork) , it would take months to get over, now people leave and its oh well, an extra match and we're back where we want to be.

I hate the backdoor , it supplements the stronger teams (they're rarely beaten twice or three times as it seems to be now). How many times can a team be beaten before they're actually out. I understand change happens , game evolves, moves on/rules changes etc.

It feels like the trad counties( Clare included) are keeping hurling to themselves and not spreading the game which I think should always be the focus. Qf and Sf are good money spinners. Yes there have been great games but some bad ones too. Clare/Wex was awful like a training match last yr. The Qf/S/f feels like it's really when people think the championship has begun, before that it's just shadow boxing. Has the game really grown in the last 20yrs since the backdoor came in. I feel it hasn't. Anyways ,just my opinion here, not claiming to own the truth."
That feeling you get when you lost the provincial final is now replaced by the feeling you get when you lose the semi final. We now how more highly attended hurling matches then ever before. I love the hurling championship the last few years, especially with so many different teams winning silverware.

Jack_Goff (Meath) - Posts: 2920 - 12/08/2019 23:15:29    2224959

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Replying To ballydalane:  "Just goes to show, excuses can be changed to suit the circumstances, even if they completely contradict each other.

Limerick (or pick most any other Munster champion in the past decade) lose their all Ireland semi final after a 4/5 week break ("they were rusty", "they lost their sharpness", "the other team was battle hardened").

Kilkenny win their semi final after a 4/5 week break ("they were rested", "they were able to "peak"", "their opponents were burnt out").

Go figure!"
Maybe we should- go figure. No real Leinster team, outside Kilkenny, has contested an All Ireland Final at Senior Level since 2000. All five Munster Counties have contested All Ireland Finals in this decade alone, with Waterford Cork both losing a Final narrowly. No Leinster Under 21 team, outside Kilkenny has won an All Ireland since 2000. While Cork have won none in that period, Limerick, Clare and Waterford have won 10 between the three of them. Only one League title has been won by those 'other' counties in Leinster since 2000. So it is easy to argue cogently that Kilkenny do have an easier, and yes I do acknowledge that KK sides over the past twenty years have been utterly exceptional, road to ultimate success.
You mention Galway from 2009- interesting. Galway have appeared in five All Ireland Finals since 2009, including a replay, and won just one, a perfect reflection of their rate of success in their final appearances up to 2009.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 2440 - 13/08/2019 17:16:52    2225189

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Could people not be reading too much into Limerick being beaten by Kilkenny.

There's nothing between the top teams in hurling at the minute.

It's just not a disadvantage to win the Provincial titles, there's a bye to the semifinals for the winners.

Cork were knocked out by Kilkenny, so they didn't even make it there. Where does the fact that it's harder to get to a semi final come into your analysis.

The logic that gets: Limerick lost to Kilkenny, Wexford lost to Tipp means that it's a disadvantage to win your Provincial title is not sturdy analysis.

Also there's just never equal schedules is these competitions, so sometimes teams will have to wait longer to play.

The narrative always makes sense after the fact.

Limerick lost because they'd too long to wait. If Limerick had won the narrative would have been fresh Limerick have too much in the closing stages for tired Kilkenny.

Truth is we don't know what the optimal time between matches is for a team, it's impossible to tell from a sample of a handful of games.

You'd actually need to a range of results over many seasons to come up with any meaningful evidence to suggest that a number of weeks rest is good or bad.

The entirety of this thread is based on a shoddy initial proposition."
Yes- you are right - Prov Final 4 have a double chance to make the AI SFs - others only one chance - so there is an advantage to being a Prov Finalist.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1826 - 14/08/2019 03:57:49    2225383

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "Maybe we should- go figure. No real Leinster team, outside Kilkenny, has contested an All Ireland Final at Senior Level since 2000. All five Munster Counties have contested All Ireland Finals in this decade alone, with Waterford Cork both losing a Final narrowly. No Leinster Under 21 team, outside Kilkenny has won an All Ireland since 2000. While Cork have won none in that period, Limerick, Clare and Waterford have won 10 between the three of them. Only one League title has been won by those 'other' counties in Leinster since 2000. So it is easy to argue cogently that Kilkenny do have an easier, and yes I do acknowledge that KK sides over the past twenty years have been utterly exceptional, road to ultimate success.
You mention Galway from 2009- interesting. Galway have appeared in five All Ireland Finals since 2009, including a replay, and won just one, a perfect reflection of their rate of success in their final appearances up to 2009."
There's several ways you could argue what you're saying. If what you have said is true then Limerick and Tipp should be in the final because they've had a relativity easy path to the semi finals this year. Munster wasn't competitive in the slightest with the hammerings that were dished out. Limerick could even afford to rest several players in the final group game against Tipp who they then hammered in the final. When in the history of the game has a team ever been able to rest key players.

Even in the qualifier years when Limerick and co were knocked out of Munster in the first round and then hammered ourselves, Wexford and Dublin for an easy path to a semi final. Why were they not winning finals then? Why after a so called easy route through the back door were they still losing to Kilkenny who would have played the same teams in Leinster?

For example, In 2008 KK hammered us out the gate (18 points), hammered Wexford also (19 points). Waterford went out in the first round of Munster and played Antrim (21 points), then played us (6 points) and Wexford (1 point). KK played Cork and Waterford played Tipp in the semi and we all know what happened in the final. Waterford ended up having nearly the same route to the semi final as KK did. Stating that KK were winning finals because they had in easy in Leinster doesn't stack up.

Kk finished top of the group in Leinster with all 4 teams on 5 points and any one of those teams could have been knocked out going into the last 5 minutes of the final games. Leinster was unbelievably tough this year and I believe it was those difficult games that got Kilkenny the wins against Cork and Limerick. Cork and Limerick you could argue were not prepared for the level of intensity because they didn't have the difficult group games Kilkenny had.

Wexford showed they are up there now dining at the top table with their performances against Tipp and Kilkenny in the Leinster Final. So an easy route to the semi final doesn't make a difference.

Faithfull (Offaly) - Posts: 573 - 14/08/2019 10:54:46    2225443

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