National Forum

Is It Time To Bury Provincial Hurling Championships- At Senior Level

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Replying To Hitnhurl:  "Do they? Thanks for that poll can you give me a reference for that study please ? The gaa want more games more money"
If the GAA wanted more money then they would ensure Kilkenny, Tipperary and Cork played each other in the Primary competition every year!
The key motivation around the hurling Championship is Political. Its important for Provincial Councils to have a Provincial Championship. Lads working their way through the ranks for all those years! They will hardly vote for whats right for the players and reduce the importance of their role! Turkeys voting for Christmas.

As for the reference to a study which says players want more games! Just follow the game a bit more. Training 6 days a week for potentially 1 game during the Summer doesnt rock players boats these days.

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1050 - 09/08/2019 22:15:38    2223226

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Replying To Hitnhurl:  "Do they? Thanks for that poll can you give me a reference for that study please ? The gaa want more games more money"
There are plenty of comments in the media from current and recently retired players about loving more games. The hurling structure has been successful. The only debate is about an extra team into the Leinster Championship.

There has been no cribbing from Clare, Waterford and Galway about their early exits. Carlow rightly ask the question should their be a 6th team in Leinster?

Galway won the Leinster Championship last year and made the final. With 10 minutes to go in the semi-final against Limerick, Cork seemed odds on to win. Cork's exit to Limerick cannot be blamed on being Munster champions. The Limerick keeper pulled off a great save to deny Cork a match winning goal and the rest is history.

Limerick's path to the All-Ireland final was made difficult by Kilkenny's defeat in the Leinster final. Was Wexford's path to the All-Ireland final made difficult by Tipperary's loss in the Munster final?

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6261 - 09/08/2019 22:39:35    2223233

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Replying To Hitnhurl:  "Do they? Thanks for that poll can you give me a reference for that study please ? The gaa want more games more money"
The knock out system was done away with because inter county players were asking why they were busting their b*ll1x training 6 months of the year in the pissing rain only to be knocked out first time out. Also, it gave hurling and football fans more games to enjoy during the summer. Whatever about round robins, super 8s etc., straight knock-out is never coming back.

ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1085 - 09/08/2019 23:26:40    2223244

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The McDonagh Cup runs the fixture list correctly for a 5 team group. It might mean that a team might play 2 home games before there away games or vice versa but it ensures all teams do not play more than 2 weekends in a row.

Example:
Week 1. 1v4, 2v5
Week 2. 5v3, 4v2
Week 3. 3v1
Week 4. 4v5
Week 5. 5v1, 2v3
Week 6. 1v2, 3v4"
That has the Cork problem too - team 2 are off in weeks 3 & 4.
The following schedule has no team playing more than two matches in a row and off for no more than one:
Wk 1 = BvE and CvD
Wk 2 = EvA
Wk 3 = AvC and DvB
Wk 4 = DvE
Wk 5 = BvA and CvE
Wk 6 = CvB and AvD

Hmm - there may not be a solution to having all teams get two home games as well within the constraints.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1753 - 10/08/2019 01:22:34    2223255

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Attendances have sky rocketed in Munster for the hurling with this new system and you want to scrap it. Cop yourself on. The only change I'd make is the provincial winners playing 3 weeks after and not 4.

An alternative would be 3rd place in each province playing the runners up in the other one and the provincial winners playing the mcdonagh Cup finalists. These 4 matches could be classed as the quarter finals and played on the same weekend.

Jack_Goff (Meath) - Posts: 2920 - 10/08/2019 06:55:22    2223265

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Replying To Ban:  "If the GAA wanted more money then they would ensure Kilkenny, Tipperary and Cork played each other in the Primary competition every year!
The key motivation around the hurling Championship is Political. Its important for Provincial Councils to have a Provincial Championship. Lads working their way through the ranks for all those years! They will hardly vote for whats right for the players and reduce the importance of their role! Turkeys voting for Christmas.

As for the reference to a study which says players want more games! Just follow the game a bit more. Training 6 days a week for potentially 1 game during the Summer doesnt rock players boats these days."
Train 6 days Week to stay for play for club county and more I train 6 six days a Week and I'm no intercounty hurler!!!! As for saying has doesn't want more mneyy PMSL best one ever the gaa no never

Hitnhurl (Cork) - Posts: 92 - 10/08/2019 07:06:39    2223268

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This has been discussed many times. The present system is better than the knockout system esp for Galway and Leinster imo. It's not perfect but it's far more interesting. When it comes to knock-out games each team should have a minimum of 2 weeks for recovery and preparation.
If they wished, the old system of Munster and Leinster knockout could be re-established and a separate All-Ireland championship, non-provincial league-based championship, with home and away games could be tried for a three-year period. Counties could be given the option to opt out of the Munster or Leinster championship if they wished. The number of other games in the winter and spring would have to be reduced or abolished entirely.

baire (Galway) - Posts: 820 - 10/08/2019 09:09:58    2223274

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The 4 week gap from Hurling provincial finals to semi-finals should be 3 weeks. With Football fixtures, it's not an easy task. The other option the GAA have is to host the quarter-finals a week before the semi-finals. The week gap to a semi-final is not ideal but offers an incentive for winning the province.

Example GAA Calendar:

1. 05-May: Football Tier 2 - Group 1 & Hurling Tier 2 - Group 1
2. 12-May: Football Provincial Group 1, Football Tier 2 - Group 2 & Hurling Tier 2 - Group 2
3. 19-May: Football Provincial Group 2 & Hurling Provincial Group 1
4. 26-May: Football Tier 2 - Group 3, Hurling Provincial Group 2 & Hurling Tier 2 - Group 3
5. 02-Jun: Football Provincial Group 3, Football Tier 2 - Semi-Finals & Hurling Tier 2 - Group 4
6. 09-Jun: Football Provincial Semi-Finals & Hurling Provincial Group 3
7. 16-Jun: Hurling Provincial Group 4 & Hurling Tier 2 - Group 5
8. 23-Jun: Football Provincial Finals, Football Tier 2 - Final & Hurling Tier 2 - Final
9. 30-Jun: Hurling Provincial Group 5
10. 07-Jul: Football Qualifier Round, Hurling Provincial Finals & Hurling Preliminary Quarter-finals
11. 14-Jul: Football All-Ireland Round 1
12. 21-Jul: Football Round 2A & Round 2B
13. 28-Jul: Football All-Ireland Quarter-finals & Hurling All-Ireland Quarter-finals
14. 04-Aug: Hurling All-Ireland Semi-finals
15. 11-Aug: Football All-Ireland Semi-finals
16. 18-Aug: U20 Football Final & U20 Hurling Final
17. 25-Aug: Hurling All-Ireland Final
18. 01-Sep: Football All-Ireland Final

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6261 - 10/08/2019 11:28:55    2223316

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Replying To baire:  "This has been discussed many times. The present system is better than the knockout system esp for Galway and Leinster imo. It's not perfect but it's far more interesting. When it comes to knock-out games each team should have a minimum of 2 weeks for recovery and preparation.
If they wished, the old system of Munster and Leinster knockout could be re-established and a separate All-Ireland championship, non-provincial league-based championship, with home and away games could be tried for a three-year period. Counties could be given the option to opt out of the Munster or Leinster championship if they wished. The number of other games in the winter and spring would have to be reduced or abolished entirely."
If they go down that road they may as well scrap the provincials altogether, it would just become a glorified Walsh Cup.

Am I the only one who thinks the current system is pretty good (not perfect, a few tweaks here and there perhaps)?

One of the main issues is to incentivize winning your province so it's not seen as a disadvantage to win, compared to finishing runner up or even third in your group. I like the idea of the provincial winners playing the McDonagh teams before a semi final, with a 2 week break.

Another alternative would be to have the Leinster and Munster champions go straight to the All Ireland final, which would make the provincial finals do or die (no argument about being devalued then), but would do away with AI QFs and SFs which would be a big shame.

ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1085 - 10/08/2019 12:07:21    2223329

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Replying To ballydalane:  "If they go down that road they may as well scrap the provincials altogether, it would just become a glorified Walsh Cup.

Am I the only one who thinks the current system is pretty good (not perfect, a few tweaks here and there perhaps)?

One of the main issues is to incentivize winning your province so it's not seen as a disadvantage to win, compared to finishing runner up or even third in your group. I like the idea of the provincial winners playing the McDonagh teams before a semi final, with a 2 week break.

Another alternative would be to have the Leinster and Munster champions go straight to the All Ireland final, which would make the provincial finals do or die (no argument about being devalued then), but would do away with AI QFs and SFs which would be a big shame."
I agree that the new system is much better and that it can be improved upon. If the provincial system was got away with as has been suggested by some, my point was that the new system should not deny the Munster or Leinster Council to run their separate knockout championship. I don't think there would be the same demand for it in Leinster but in Munster they seem to think that it was special, so let them keep it.

baire (Galway) - Posts: 820 - 10/08/2019 12:58:49    2223350

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Replying To ballydalane:  "If they go down that road they may as well scrap the provincials altogether, it would just become a glorified Walsh Cup.

Am I the only one who thinks the current system is pretty good (not perfect, a few tweaks here and there perhaps)?

One of the main issues is to incentivize winning your province so it's not seen as a disadvantage to win, compared to finishing runner up or even third in your group. I like the idea of the provincial winners playing the McDonagh teams before a semi final, with a 2 week break.

Another alternative would be to have the Leinster and Munster champions go straight to the All Ireland final, which would make the provincial finals do or die (no argument about being devalued then), but would do away with AI QFs and SFs which would be a big shame."
Is direct qualification to the semi-finals incentive enough to win your province?

2018: Leinster runners-up Kilkenny beaten by 3rd placed Limerick. Leinster champions Galway made the All-Ireland Final.
2019: Both 3rd placed teams were beaten in the quarter-finals.

The 2 week gap from provincial finals to quarter-finals and then another 2 week gap to the semi-finals is an appealing scheduling. If the quarter-finals to semi-finals is 1 week, it might be a fairer schedule in respect of provincial champions.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6261 - 10/08/2019 13:28:22    2223356

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Could people not be reading too much into Limerick being beaten by Kilkenny.

There's nothing between the top teams in hurling at the minute.

It's just not a disadvantage to win the Provincial titles, there's a bye to the semifinals for the winners.

Cork were knocked out by Kilkenny, so they didn't even make it there. Where does the fact that it's harder to get to a semi final come into your analysis.

The logic that gets: Limerick lost to Kilkenny, Wexford lost to Tipp means that it's a disadvantage to win your Provincial title is not sturdy analysis.

Also there's just never equal schedules is these competitions, so sometimes teams will have to wait longer to play.

The narrative always makes sense after the fact.

Limerick lost because they'd too long to wait. If Limerick had won the narrative would have been fresh Limerick have too much in the closing stages for tired Kilkenny.

Truth is we don't know what the optimal time between matches is for a team, it's impossible to tell from a sample of a handful of games.

You'd actually need to a range of results over many seasons to come up with any meaningful evidence to suggest that a number of weeks rest is good or bad.

The entirety of this thread is based on a shoddy initial proposition.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2907 - 10/08/2019 14:00:46    2223371

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I think it should be top 2 in each group should go through to the final, loser play mcdonagh week after provincial final, winner straight to semi.
3 week gap.Won't happen though.

Buachaillbui (Clare) - Posts: 65 - 10/08/2019 14:00:49    2223372

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This year of 2019:
30-Jun: Hurling Provincial Finals
07-Jul: Football Qualifier Round 4
14-Jul: Football QF Phase 1 & Hurling All-Ireland Quarter-finals
21-Jul: Football QF Phase 2
28-Jul: Hurling All-Ireland Semi-finals
04-Aug: Football QF Phase 3
11-Aug: Football All-Ireland Semi-finals
18-Aug: Hurling All-Ireland Final
25-Aug:
01-Sep: Football All-Ireland Final

Suggested tweaking of 2019 going forward:
07-Jul: Football Qualifier Round 4 & Hurling Provincial Finals (2 week gap from losing a provincial final to quarter-finals.)
14-Jul: Football QF Phase 1
21-Jul: Football QF Phase 2.1 & Hurling All-Ireland Quarter-finals (1 week gap from quarter-finals to semi-finals.)
28-Jul: Football QF Phase 2.2 & Hurling All-Ireland Semi-finals (3 week gap from winning a province to semi-finals.)
04-Aug: Football QF Phase 3
11-Aug: Football All-Ireland Semi-finals
18-Aug: Hurling All-Ireland Final
25-Aug:
01-Sep: Football All-Ireland Final

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6261 - 10/08/2019 14:15:01    2223375

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Galway won Leinster and connacht next they should try ulster

brisbane (Galway) - Posts: 413 - 10/08/2019 15:49:48    2223402

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Replying To Buachaillbui:  "I think it should be top 2 in each group should go through to the final, loser play mcdonagh week after provincial final, winner straight to semi.
3 week gap.Won't happen though."
Why should mcdonagh cup team get a pass into the latter stages?

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 2817 - 10/08/2019 15:56:45    2223406

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Replying To tiobraid:  "Why should mcdonagh cup team get a pass into the latter stages?"
They already do??? They've earned that right. why should a team finishing 3rd outweigh a team who like Laois went undefeated and actually won a competition.

Buachaillbui (Clare) - Posts: 65 - 10/08/2019 16:19:32    2223413

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Replying To brisbane:  "Galway won Leinster and connacht next they should try ulster"
Well they were in Munster and at all levels. I often think if they had stayed there they would have won more All Irelands.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 2393 - 10/08/2019 16:28:53    2223415

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Replying To Buachaillbui:  "I think it should be top 2 in each group should go through to the final, loser play mcdonagh week after provincial final, winner straight to semi.
3 week gap.Won't happen though."
Then losing a provincial final would barely make a blind bit of difference, the loser would just have to play a McDonagh team in the QF and they're into the SF.

ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1085 - 10/08/2019 17:54:06    2223435

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Could people not be reading too much into Limerick being beaten by Kilkenny.

There's nothing between the top teams in hurling at the minute.

It's just not a disadvantage to win the Provincial titles, there's a bye to the semifinals for the winners.

Cork were knocked out by Kilkenny, so they didn't even make it there. Where does the fact that it's harder to get to a semi final come into your analysis.

The logic that gets: Limerick lost to Kilkenny, Wexford lost to Tipp means that it's a disadvantage to win your Provincial title is not sturdy analysis.

Also there's just never equal schedules is these competitions, so sometimes teams will have to wait longer to play.

The narrative always makes sense after the fact.

Limerick lost because they'd too long to wait. If Limerick had won the narrative would have been fresh Limerick have too much in the closing stages for tired Kilkenny.

Truth is we don't know what the optimal time between matches is for a team, it's impossible to tell from a sample of a handful of games.

You'd actually need to a range of results over many seasons to come up with any meaningful evidence to suggest that a number of weeks rest is good or bad.

The entirety of this thread is based on a shoddy initial proposition."
Oh I agree Whammo. If a provincial winner loses the semi final it's because they were rusty, if they win the semi final they were "fresh"

ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1085 - 10/08/2019 17:57:42    2223439

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