National Forum

Is It Time To Bury Provincial Hurling Championships- At Senior Level

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "Maybe we should- go figure. No real Leinster team, outside Kilkenny, has contested an All Ireland Final at Senior Level since 2000. All five Munster Counties have contested All Ireland Finals in this decade alone, with Waterford Cork both losing a Final narrowly. No Leinster Under 21 team, outside Kilkenny has won an All Ireland since 2000. While Cork have won none in that period, Limerick, Clare and Waterford have won 10 between the three of them. Only one League title has been won by those 'other' counties in Leinster since 2000. So it is easy to argue cogently that Kilkenny do have an easier, and yes I do acknowledge that KK sides over the past twenty years have been utterly exceptional, road to ultimate success.
You mention Galway from 2009- interesting. Galway have appeared in five All Ireland Finals since 2009, including a replay, and won just one, a perfect reflection of their rate of success in their final appearances up to 2009."
My point about Galway entering Leinster in '09 is that even after that particular shark had been thrown into the Leinster provincial waters, and Kilkenny no longer had a cakewalk to the Leinster title, Kilkenny still won 5 of the next 7 All Irelands.

And no one has still been able to solve the eternal mystery of all Ireland semi finals: why was the 4/5 week break to the semi final said to confer such an enormous advantage to Kilkenny, yet the same break is deemed an interminable disadvantage to the Munster champions?

ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1112 - 14/08/2019 11:26:09    2225456

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The biggest argument for an open draw is it gives the developing counties (and by that I mean Laois, Carlow, Antrim, Westmeath and Kerry) and those who just know they can't win a football All-Ireland a real chance of targeting something massive in 20 years if they do the right things.
At the moment, the reward for 20 years of work in Laois and Carlow is an up-and-down attitude where they are potentially (and I do think Laois could upset the apple cart in Leinster next year) cannon fodder and the GAA don't care if they go down.
Imagine if Galway, Wexford, Kilkenny or Dublin are relegated next year - how long before the clamour for a 6 team Leinster then?
Make it fair, make it equitable, the sun will still rise in the morning if Wexford play Limerick instead of Limerick playing Cork in the season opener. The fact that teams play the same teams every year is a bit boring in fairness.

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 868 - 14/08/2019 14:33:41    2225611

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "Well they were in Munster and at all levels. I often think if they had stayed there they would have won more All Irelands."
I actually agree, I think for years and there would still would be a school of thought in Galway that liked to think of themselves as the poor downtrodden men from the West and the poor relations of hurling. Fact of the matter is that Galway should be and arguably are one the power houses of hurling. Yes their All Ireland record is woeful at senior level, but as you say Oltourman we'll never know now had Galway had chosen to stay in Munster to this day, who's to say they wouldn't have a lot more All Irelands. Instead they chose to go it alone, and that defeatist attitude haunted them for decades.

gilly1910 (Galway) - Posts: 102 - 14/08/2019 15:50:18    2225664

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Replying To StoreysTash:  "The biggest argument for an open draw is it gives the developing counties (and by that I mean Laois, Carlow, Antrim, Westmeath and Kerry) and those who just know they can't win a football All-Ireland a real chance of targeting something massive in 20 years if they do the right things.
At the moment, the reward for 20 years of work in Laois and Carlow is an up-and-down attitude where they are potentially (and I do think Laois could upset the apple cart in Leinster next year) cannon fodder and the GAA don't care if they go down.
Imagine if Galway, Wexford, Kilkenny or Dublin are relegated next year - how long before the clamour for a 6 team Leinster then?
Make it fair, make it equitable, the sun will still rise in the morning if Wexford play Limerick instead of Limerick playing Cork in the season opener. The fact that teams play the same teams every year is a bit boring in fairness."
Make it 2 mixed groups of 6.
Put Muns 1,4,5 seeds and Lein 2,3,6 seeds in Group A (others to Group B, where Muns 6th could be a Lein team).

After 5-match round robin, the highest Muns and Lein team in BOTH groups play Prov Finals (or if you prefer, treat the 1,4 and 2,3 group pairings as Prov KO SFs as well to determine 4 Finalists).
Two Champs join top 3 from each group in AI KO QFs (most likely, Prov Champs get a bye to SFs instead, like now).

You get the best of both worlds - refreshed groups each year with the big Prov Final days retained.

Could do similar split Prov groups in football -
Group UL - Uls 1,4 with Lein 2,3;
Group LM - Lein 1,4 with Muns 2,3;
Group MC - Muns 1,4 with Conn 2,3;
Group CU - Conn 1,4 with Uls 2,3.

Add another 4 NFL highest-ranked teams to form 4 groups of 5.
Similar to hurling - have 4 Prov Finals - 4 Champs and each top 3 to AI KO 16 (likely less due to byes).
For fixture variety - group letters are reversed in EVEN yrs) - so Groups UC (Uls 1,4 with Conn 2,3), CM, ML and LU.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1825 - 14/08/2019 18:34:42    2225749

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We have the Munster League Dec-Feb each year. If that became the Munster Championship and if Leinster ran a similar competition, the MacCarthy cup could be an open draw with two groups.

Traditionalists might not like it but for fans and players it might be something to look forward to in the new year and we would have three meaningful completions to aim at.

slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6192 - 15/08/2019 13:24:15    2225998

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Replying To slayer:  "We have the Munster League Dec-Feb each year. If that became the Munster Championship and if Leinster ran a similar competition, the MacCarthy cup could be an open draw with two groups.

Traditionalists might not like it but for fans and players it might be something to look forward to in the new year and we would have three meaningful completions to aim at."
spot on here,omaha and storystash above,the traditionalists are stifling progress and the spread of hurling beyond a handful of counties.
i am amazed to see the support for the idea from munster though,i thought that was where all the support for the provincial championships was coming from.
the whole gaa structure needs a massive shot in the arm and ideas like these,even on a 3 year trial,are great

perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3848 - 15/08/2019 19:45:40    2226152

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What do others think ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1825 - 21/01/2020 23:58:47    2261474

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Replying To omahant:  "What do others think ?"
Current system is great although I have no problem with having 6 teams in a provence if thats what people want

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1106 - 22/01/2020 14:51:01    2261573

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I think the big problem is the promotion relegation method.

I'd say we should just have 10 or 12 teams playing in a league with top 4 or 6 teams advancing to knockout playoffs.

I'd get rid of the National league to allow for the extra games and play the them over a window from March to August with designated club windows factored into that.

You're talking say 11 to 14 game weekends for each team, lots of time to schedule club games around give there are 26 weeks in March to August

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3121 - 22/01/2020 15:53:29    2261589

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I think the big problem is the promotion relegation method.

I'd say we should just have 10 or 12 teams playing in a league with top 4 or 6 teams advancing to knockout playoffs.

I'd get rid of the National league to allow for the extra games and play the them over a window from March to August with designated club windows factored into that.

You're talking say 11 to 14 game weekends for each team, lots of time to schedule club games around give there are 26 weeks in March to August"
I'd rather have 2 groups of 6. Home and away games for each team equals 10 games minimum. Top 3 teams into the knockout stage. The bottom two teams go into a relegation final.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 22/01/2020 16:34:10    2261606

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Replying To perfect10:  "spot on here,omaha and storystash above,the traditionalists are stifling progress and the spread of hurling beyond a handful of counties.
i am amazed to see the support for the idea from munster though,i thought that was where all the support for the provincial championships was coming from.
the whole gaa structure needs a massive shot in the arm and ideas like these,even on a 3 year trial,are great"
You are right better than what is now the format. However I believe their should be no inter county competition in Dec. & Jan. Scrap the league, start an open draw championship round robin (quarter final knock out) in March. Done in the middle of August and start club competitions. If the teams are not ready to play competitively in March tough sh-t they won't make the play offs. The lip service being given to protect the club game is b.s. The only way it can be saved and prosper is by making time and the players available to play it in summer time.
Or the other way around start the club scene in March, complete and then start the inter county championship. No club player allowed join the inter county training until after his club is eliminated. After all any club player going deep into his county championship should be fit. The standard will not go down.This seven day a week training needs to stop. Development squads etc. also. The club is the development squad for the inter county team.
Nothing will change and the lip service will continue. Why ? money,money ,money and professional jobs for a few in a sport where we hear people shouting the amateur status has to prevail.
Time to put the emphasis back into the club game and the icing on the cake is for the small few that make a county team. I am like most and would love to see the top players playing twice a week but the cost of that is to kill the feeder system unless we are willing to say it is time to have a pro league.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 986 - 22/01/2020 16:42:45    2261610

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Oldtourman is spot on on this one, the new "league" format of the provincial championship means the place to aim for is third, get out early and surface again ready to rock in the semi's.
Kiely was aiming for that last year but Cork messed it up for him.
More than enough evidence at this stage that winning a mun final decreases your AI chances.
If Tipp or Lim win munster this year but dont win the AI the season is a failure simple as that.
I think the system will continue because attendances are still good but compared to the days when you were out of the whole championship if you lost the final, the bite is a bit gone from them.
This new format has also diluted the league a bit as well.
There will be lots of shadow-boxing this year!!

PremierGold (Tipperary) - Posts: 121 - 22/01/2020 17:13:34    2261618

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Replying To PremierGold:  "Oldtourman is spot on on this one, the new "league" format of the provincial championship means the place to aim for is third, get out early and surface again ready to rock in the semi's.
Kiely was aiming for that last year but Cork messed it up for him.
More than enough evidence at this stage that winning a mun final decreases your AI chances.
If Tipp or Lim win munster this year but dont win the AI the season is a failure simple as that.
I think the system will continue because attendances are still good but compared to the days when you were out of the whole championship if you lost the final, the bite is a bit gone from them.
This new format has also diluted the league a bit as well.
There will be lots of shadow-boxing this year!!"
Agree on the league being of less importance now. It's just a development competition and it's somewhat pointless.

I disagree on the advantage of coming third on the Munster table. If you win Munster you get a bye to the semifinals. That's definitely an advantage, it can't not be.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3121 - 22/01/2020 17:59:25    2261626

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "I'd rather have 2 groups of 6. Home and away games for each team equals 10 games minimum. Top 3 teams into the knockout stage. The bottom two teams go into a relegation final."
I prefer single round robins for variety of fixtures and fewer dead rubbers likely.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3121 - 22/01/2020 18:31:44    2261637

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Replying To PremierGold:  "Oldtourman is spot on on this one, the new "league" format of the provincial championship means the place to aim for is third, get out early and surface again ready to rock in the semi's.
Kiely was aiming for that last year but Cork messed it up for him.
More than enough evidence at this stage that winning a mun final decreases your AI chances.
If Tipp or Lim win munster this year but dont win the AI the season is a failure simple as that.
I think the system will continue because attendances are still good but compared to the days when you were out of the whole championship if you lost the final, the bite is a bit gone from them.
This new format has also diluted the league a bit as well.
There will be lots of shadow-boxing this year!!"
very true. Galway blew it last year by beating KK in Nolan Park. We should have sent down the C team and kept our best for Parnell Park the following Sunday. It was an absolute disaster.

suckvalleypaddy (Galway) - Posts: 1381 - 22/01/2020 20:16:33    2261648

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For anyone who thinks the straight knockout was better there is no way players will train to the extent needed to win an AI if you can get knocked out after 1 game. All it will do is lead to top Irish athletes picking other sports.

Also the league was always second rate and let's not pretend it wasn't. Who ever boasted about how many leagues a county won

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1106 - 22/01/2020 20:37:30    2261651

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Agree on the league being of less importance now. It's just a development competition and it's somewhat pointless.

I disagree on the advantage of coming third on the Munster table. If you win Munster you get a bye to the semifinals. That's definitely an advantage, it can't not be."
Getting into the semis straight is an advantage, but its the 4 week gap (used to be 5 weeks) that is the problem, when you are winning you want another game in 2 weeks.
The stats are damning over the last 20 years for the provincial mun winners.

PremierGold (Tipperary) - Posts: 121 - 23/01/2020 09:56:24    2261721

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Replying To PremierGold:  "Getting into the semis straight is an advantage, but its the 4 week gap (used to be 5 weeks) that is the problem, when you are winning you want another game in 2 weeks.
The stats are damning over the last 20 years for the provincial mun winners."
maybe runners up should play 3rd place from other prov and prov champions play mcdonagh teams

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1106 - 23/01/2020 12:11:05    2261752

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Replying To Breezy:  "maybe runners up should play 3rd place from other prov and prov champions play mcdonagh teams"
I think that'd be good.

Even if that wasn't implemented I don't see why the wait has to be 5 weeks either though.

Preliminary quarterfinals can be the week of Provincial finals.

Quarterfinals 2 weeks later so losing finalists get 1 week off.

Semifinals the following week.

2 weekends off to work on things kind of feels ideal.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3121 - 23/01/2020 15:36:18    2261799

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I think that'd be good.

Even if that wasn't implemented I don't see why the wait has to be 5 weeks either though.

Preliminary quarterfinals can be the week of Provincial finals.

Quarterfinals 2 weeks later so losing finalists get 1 week off.

Semifinals the following week.

2 weekends off to work on things kind of feels ideal."
I think the wait was mostly about a fear of getting to far away from the old September final. The current system still packs the round robin to tight for me and spreading that would help with the 4/5 week problem

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1106 - 23/01/2020 16:57:09    2261813

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