National Forum

Is It Time To Bury Provincial Hurling Championships- At Senior Level

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Replying To Breezy:  "Best solution from what I can see. Gives the winners a game but also a bit of an advantage.

Munster championship was amazing last year and Leinster this time so I just dont get all the hate. Between structures and referees and moaning about the Dubs I sometimes wonder do the people on here like GAA"
You would wonder. People can like hurling and football (the sports) and not like the GAA (the organisation). People can get frustrated with the structures and those that organise them (the GAA) and feel the sports would be better if the sports were better organised.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3752 - 30/07/2019 18:27:28    2218847

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Replying To SamandLiamSoon:  "So Tipp decided to hammer everyone in the round robin series in Munster to then go on and throw a Munster Final and struggle past Laois and are a man down and five points down to the Wexford and fight back to win and you're of the opinion it was some sort of master plan all along????? Reading that back it would a great movie."
Yes, but walking out of Limerick that evening Tipp had to play Laois and Wexford and we had to play Kilkenny (anybody that is following the games recently would know they had a great chance of beating Cork) to get to the Final. Even the Irish Examiner, the following morning, pointed out that Tipp now had an easier path to the final. I'll go back to the original point. When any of the Munster counties set out next year will they be serious about winning Munster. Waterford won a Munster title, Limerick won two, Cork won three and Tipp have won Five Munster titles since 2008 and of all these wins only Tipp have won two Semi Finals and one of those was won narrowly against Dublin, a team that had not contested an All Ireland Semi Final in fifty years and lost probably their most influential player, Peter Kelly, a few minutes into the game . As the man says I know where my priorities would lie if I was involved with any of these teams next year..

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 2391 - 30/07/2019 18:31:24    2218849

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The whole point of winning a provincial title is to gain an advantage in the All-Ireland series. Just have 2 groups of 5 with random seeds if you're going down this road.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 263 - 30/07/2019 18:35:08    2218850

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Replying To Condorman:  "Rubbish.
Wexford beat Carlow in the round robin stage.
Limerick lost twice."
Sure Kilkenny beat Carlow as well- so what..

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 2391 - 30/07/2019 18:35:13    2218851

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Every thing in life evolves. I am sure no one would want us to go back to players wearing peaky caps and running at the goal tender doing their level best to kill him. The championship is a league now anyway. Scrap the league (all other competitions also) and run the All- Ireland series on a league system. Provinces run a championship if they wish on a knock out basis. This will free up months of the year for club competition the feeder roots to what we enjoy.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 771 - 30/07/2019 18:58:56    2218854

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Replying To Canuck:  "Every thing in life evolves. I am sure no one would want us to go back to players wearing peaky caps and running at the goal tender doing their level best to kill him. The championship is a league now anyway. Scrap the league (all other competitions also) and run the All- Ireland series on a league system. Provinces run a championship if they wish on a knock out basis. This will free up months of the year for club competition the feeder roots to what we enjoy."
Exactly! The top teams need to be hurling into July. There is no satisfaction in seeing Clare, Waterford or Galway gone in June. The present format is getting stale already. At least with the old back door you'd get a trip to Wexford or Offaly or there would be a game against a team outside your province. There should be 2 seeded groups of 5 based on the provincial championships. The groups should be a mix of Munster, Leinster and Galway. The bottom 2 teams should play each other in a relegation play off. This would enhance Laois, Carlow, Westmeath, Kerry etc. and give them an avenue of survival. The top team in each group go straight into the All-Ireland Final or top 2 into the semi final. There needs to be a mix of teams to reinvigorate the championship.

The_Bull (Cork) - Posts: 239 - 30/07/2019 20:03:16    2218865

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Replying To Clubgaa:  "The Provincial Hurling Championships can be kept as they serve 2 objectives. 1st they allow the Munster & Leinster championships to continue and a lot of GAA people love those competitions and the history that goes with them.
The 2nd role they play is that they are 2 round robin leagues that allow some teams to progress to the All Ireland series and others are out of the competition. To give all teams, champions, losers and 3rd place qualifiers the same amount of games we should eliminate the 2 Preliminary Q/F's and have all 8 teams left play a quarter final.

The All Ireland series could be as follows:
Munster Champions play Q/F against the McDonagh Cup Winners ( rotate every 2nd year ).
Leinster Champions play Q/F against the McDonagh Cup Losers ( rotate every 2nd year ).
Beaten Leinster Finalist plays Q/F against 3rd team in Munster.
Beaten Munster Finilast plays Q/F against 3rd team in Leinster.

Provincial champions if they progress can be kept apart at semi final stage."
I worked out almost your exact same system today based on this year's results (albeit I had Leinster champs v mcd winners). Came to the exact same semi finalists.

QF
Wexford v Laois
Limerick v Westmeath
Kilkenny v Cork
Tipp v Dublin

SF
Wexford v Tipp
Limerick v Kilkenny

Now here's the thing. Say Wexford and Limerick lost their semi finals again, would we still be hearing the same s***e that their "easy" wins (and I use the term advisedly given Laois' win over Dublin) over the McDonagh​ teams was no preparation for Kilkenny and Tipp who came through "tough" quarter finals?

ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1085 - 30/07/2019 20:16:37    2218866

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Replying To The_Bull:  "Exactly! The top teams need to be hurling into July. There is no satisfaction in seeing Clare, Waterford or Galway gone in June. The present format is getting stale already. At least with the old back door you'd get a trip to Wexford or Offaly or there would be a game against a team outside your province. There should be 2 seeded groups of 5 based on the provincial championships. The groups should be a mix of Munster, Leinster and Galway. The bottom 2 teams should play each other in a relegation play off. This would enhance Laois, Carlow, Westmeath, Kerry etc. and give them an avenue of survival. The top team in each group go straight into the All-Ireland Final or top 2 into the semi final. There needs to be a mix of teams to reinvigorate the championship."
I believe this is the best way to improve lower level teams. Getting a beating and not playing again until next year doesnot build confidence. You will see an improvement every game. Waterord had a horrible year but by the time they played Cork were getting better. Especially new players were becoming the leaders. Now starting at square one again next year because everyone needs to admit the league is useless. The say is true for Laois. If the championship continued and Laois were going to play Waterford how confident would they be. Yes Carlow, Westmeath and Kerry would also fancy their chances of putting up to (or at least closing the gap) Clare and Waterford.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 771 - 30/07/2019 20:20:38    2218867

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2018 Final: Leinster 1st v Munster 3rd
2019 Final: Leinster 2nd v Munster 2nd

No provincial runners-up made the final last year. Some thought 3rd place was the ideal spring board after Limerick's success last year.

The 4 week gap from provincial win to semi-final is too long. Reduce that gap to 3.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6261 - 30/07/2019 20:56:09    2218876

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Replying To ballydalane:  "I worked out almost your exact same system today based on this year's results (albeit I had Leinster champs v mcd winners). Came to the exact same semi finalists.

QF
Wexford v Laois
Limerick v Westmeath
Kilkenny v Cork
Tipp v Dublin

SF
Wexford v Tipp
Limerick v Kilkenny

Now here's the thing. Say Wexford and Limerick lost their semi finals again, would we still be hearing the same s***e that their "easy" wins (and I use the term advisedly given Laois' win over Dublin) over the McDonagh​ teams was no preparation for Kilkenny and Tipp who came through "tough" quarter finals?"
Playing Carlow last year did not do Limerick much harm. However if Carlow had played as well as they did twice against Galway this year it would probably have been even better. Anyway the point of this thread is that in this decade already three of the four All Ireland Champions from Munster did not even play in the Munster Final in the years they won ultimate honours. Meanwhile 8 of the last 10 Munster winners went out at the semi final stage. Why would any Munster team, seriously considering winning an All Ireland, especially if already festooned with provincial medals, even contemplate winning out in Munster.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 2391 - 30/07/2019 22:08:43    2218923

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Replying To ballydalane:  "I worked out almost your exact same system today based on this year's results (albeit I had Leinster champs v mcd winners). Came to the exact same semi finalists.

QF
Wexford v Laois
Limerick v Westmeath
Kilkenny v Cork
Tipp v Dublin

SF
Wexford v Tipp
Limerick v Kilkenny

Now here's the thing. Say Wexford and Limerick lost their semi finals again, would we still be hearing the same s***e that their "easy" wins (and I use the term advisedly given Laois' win over Dublin) over the McDonagh​ teams was no preparation for Kilkenny and Tipp who came through "tough" quarter finals?"
Playing Carlow last year did not do Limerick much harm. However if Carlow had played as well as they did twice against Galway this year it would probably have been even better. Anyway the point of this thread is that in this decade already three of the four All Ireland Champions from Munster did not even play in the Munster Final in the years they won ultimate honours. Meanwhile 8 of the last 10 Munster winners went out at the semi final stage. Why would any Munster team, seriously considering winning an All Ireland, especially if already festooned with provincial medals, even contemplate winning out in Munster.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 2391 - 30/07/2019 22:08:43    2218924

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "Playing Carlow last year did not do Limerick much harm. However if Carlow had played as well as they did twice against Galway this year it would probably have been even better. Anyway the point of this thread is that in this decade already three of the four All Ireland Champions from Munster did not even play in the Munster Final in the years they won ultimate honours. Meanwhile 8 of the last 10 Munster winners went out at the semi final stage. Why would any Munster team, seriously considering winning an All Ireland, especially if already festooned with provincial medals, even contemplate winning out in Munster."
Well put oldtourman, there was a reason why John Kiely played a weakened team against Tipperary in Thurlas, why? because he thought Cork would beat Clare in Ennis and he wanted to leave Cork and Tipperary play the Munster final and Limerick go into the all Ireland series through the backdoor.

3 of the 4 provincial winning teams failed to preform last weekend, why because they had their momentum killed from too long of a break.

I feel the provincial championship should be kept but the GAA have to change the system to give the provincial winners the advantage.

DUALSUPPORT (Limerick) - Posts: 571 - 30/07/2019 23:51:12    2218956

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Replying To StoreysTash:  "There is absolutely no benefit to winning the provincial championship in that case though. There is currently 4 matches to eliminate 2 teams. That is ridiculous and a money grab.

There is no way to eliminate the lay-off while also making sure the benefit of winning the province is there."
Not sure - 4 games, reasonable 3 of 5 go thru in each Prov group - and in the above, Prov Champs get easier QF in lieu of bye. To my mind, the advantage of granting McD teams access to Tier 1 KO, outweighs 'legitimate' arguments that Prov Champs are not rewarded enough.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1751 - 31/07/2019 00:09:58    2218959

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Replying To Breezy:  "Best solution from what I can see. Gives the winners a game but also a bit of an advantage.

Munster championship was amazing last year and Leinster this time so I just dont get all the hate. Between structures and referees and moaning about the Dubs I sometimes wonder do the people on here like GAA"
You know - you don't have to like the GAA (admin), if appointment of an alternative/ independent body would do better in promoting our beloved games !

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1751 - 31/07/2019 00:16:34    2218961

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Replying To bennybunny:  "You would wonder. People can like hurling and football (the sports) and not like the GAA (the organisation). People can get frustrated with the structures and those that organise them (the GAA) and feel the sports would be better if the sports were better organised."
Just saw you point now - honest - after my prior post - Corkmen think alike I suppose.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1751 - 31/07/2019 00:24:07    2218962

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Replying To The_Bull:  "Exactly! The top teams need to be hurling into July. There is no satisfaction in seeing Clare, Waterford or Galway gone in June. The present format is getting stale already. At least with the old back door you'd get a trip to Wexford or Offaly or there would be a game against a team outside your province. There should be 2 seeded groups of 5 based on the provincial championships. The groups should be a mix of Munster, Leinster and Galway. The bottom 2 teams should play each other in a relegation play off. This would enhance Laois, Carlow, Westmeath, Kerry etc. and give them an avenue of survival. The top team in each group go straight into the All-Ireland Final or top 2 into the semi final. There needs to be a mix of teams to reinvigorate the championship."
Cork minds think alike - I'd have Muns seeds 1,4,5 grouped with Lein 2,3 - and vice versa - top 3 of 5 from each to AI QFs - BUT - also, top team from each Prov in each group to respective Prov Finals as well for 2 remaining AI QF berths - most likely, not guaranteed - Champs 'double up' to AI SFs instead.

Also, for Carlow's sake - Lein teams increase to 6 - and for symmetary - two 6s - have either a Lein 7th team or Kerry.

Does this not meet your variety endeavour ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1751 - 31/07/2019 00:47:24    2218967

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My mixed 2 groups of 5, based on Prov ranking, post Prov Finals -

A) Lime, Kilk, Dubs, Clare, Water
B) Wexf, Tipp, Cork, Galw, Carl.

Some great inter-prov matches there -
KK v Lime and Clare; and Tipp v Wexf and Galw.

And for the Prov Finals -
could again be Lime v Tipp and Wexf v KK.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1751 - 31/07/2019 01:38:09    2218973

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it would have been a risky strategy by Tipp though,they could easily have been playing dublin who might have been an even tougher game than laois!
i love the idea of the 2 x groups separate and a provincial championship ran instead of the league,but the provincial councils are making a fortune on this new format so they'll be slow to get rid of it.
i would however make it 2 x groups of 6.the finalists in the McDonagh cup being the 6th and NOBODY is above relegation.

perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3595 - 31/07/2019 07:19:29    2218981

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Replying To ballydalane:  "I worked out almost your exact same system today based on this year's results (albeit I had Leinster champs v mcd winners). Came to the exact same semi finalists.

QF
Wexford v Laois
Limerick v Westmeath
Kilkenny v Cork
Tipp v Dublin

SF
Wexford v Tipp
Limerick v Kilkenny

Now here's the thing. Say Wexford and Limerick lost their semi finals again, would we still be hearing the same s***e that their "easy" wins (and I use the term advisedly given Laois' win over Dublin) over the McDonagh​ teams was no preparation for Kilkenny and Tipp who came through "tough" quarter finals?"
If i had a euro for every time I heard suggestions for change described by ultra conservatives as 'the same auld s***e' I'd be a rich man. The back door system has been changed at least four times since first introduced twenty two years ago and the sky has never fallen in. In that time it might be noted that every county that has won the McCarthy Cup, except Galway, has been beaten at least once on their way to winning one final, as for example Kilkenny were in 2012 and Cork in 2004, Offaly 98, Tipp 2010, Clare 13, limerick 18 and of course who ever wins it this year.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 2391 - 31/07/2019 08:04:07    2218983

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Replying To StoreysTash:  "There is absolutely no benefit to winning the provincial championship in that case though. There is currently 4 matches to eliminate 2 teams. That is ridiculous and a money grab.

There is no way to eliminate the lay-off while also making sure the benefit of winning the province is there."
I think there is. The provincial winners get a Q/F against the 2 lowest ranking teams left in the McCarthy cup. Also they have a championship match in between the Provincial finals and the All Ireland final. It gets rid of the dreaded 4 week break for provincial champions and it keeps the Provincial championships alive and there are a lot of GAA people that place great value in the provincial championships.

Clubgaa (Limerick) - Posts: 829 - 31/07/2019 14:28:28    2219109

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