National Forum

Is It Time To Bury Provincial Hurling Championships- At Senior Level

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "With it now being quite obvious that Cork, Tipp and Limerick are not going to be interested in winning the above any time soon, is now to time to bury them off in a kind of a 'house private, no flowers' fashion?"
Go home you're drunk!
Limerick and WExford supporters went beserk when they won this year and rightly so. Once again you have 3 teams this year with cship trophies that mean a lot to them and throw Laois into that too! Now more than ever the provincials mean a lot

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 2920 - 29/07/2019 22:46:14    2218530

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "Yes also a very good point although why Galway ever agreed to go into Leinster at senior level only initially has always baffled me. After all when they went into Munster long ago, in 59, they went in at all levels, but of course Munster hurling men were not so narrow minded as to stop the Galwegians coming in at the lower levels."
Yes I know a lot of my fellow county men getting all worked up over the minor format but from a purely practical viewpoint I dont see how our minors can ever be fully incorporated into Leinster. Most provincial minor games are played midweek are they not? If so (and even if played at the weekend) geography is a big factor. Nearly all matches involving Galway would need to be in neutral Tullamore cos home and away fixtures wouldnt work. The distance from Galway to Wexford Park or Nowlan Park (or for those counties to bring their minors to Salthill) is too far for weekday matches...officials involved with the teams would have to take half days off work if travelling to an evening away fixture, the away team would have to do an overnight in a hotel etc leading to increased costs to the county boards.

If Galway minors are to be incorporated into a provincial set up then the logical place for them is the Munster championship. Clare, Tipp and Limerick are within reasonable commutes...only games versus Waterford and Cork would be a logistical issue.
I dont see any problem with Galway seniors and U20s being in Leinster and our minors being in Munster. The situation with our U20's being in Leinster works cos there's only 2-3 games at most to be played in the Leinster championship and all our games are in Tullamore. But at minor level there's something like 6 games in the Leinster championship and I cannot see other counties agreeing to play all matches vs Galway bar the final in Tullamore. The Leinster minor championship would also have to be restructured if we come into it cos that's an extra team with extra matches. For all of these reasons I dont think it's as straightforward an issue for us to be incorporated into the Leinster minor championship as it might initially seem to be.

PoolSturgeon (Galway) - Posts: 1456 - 29/07/2019 22:55:01    2218534

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Replying To legendzxix:  "A 4 week gap is simply too much. There should be no more that a 3 week gap. Fixtures have to fit that very simple directive."
Yes, Sir - Muns Champs traditionally have waited 4 weeks for their SF - which is too much. Why not make it 2 weeks rather than 3 to keep a gap week between AI QFs and SFs as well ?

How about mixed groups ? -
a) 1,4,5 ranked in one Prov with 2,3 in the other ?
b) Play 4 rds over 6 weeks with a 'proper' bye schedule as: A, BCD, E, ABC, D, E - this means, teams play on only 2 consecutive weeks and are off for only one - look at Muns 2019 - still 2 teams with 3 in a row but Cork off for two -crazy and not required.
c) Top 3 in each group earn AI QF berths.
d) HIghest Muns and Lein team in each group also play 2 Prov Finals - Champs earning 2 other AI QF berths - most likely 'doubling up' for a bye to AI SFs instead.

These are just a few tweaks to what is already a good system. Strong arguments have been made for a 6th Lein team - if so, make it symmetrical - two 6s - with a Lein 7th team or Kerry instead as well ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1825 - 30/07/2019 00:53:23    2218556

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Should Muns and Lein Champs play for an AI Final place, the loser to one SF place and 4 others play for one SF place - does this give more weight to Prov success ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1825 - 30/07/2019 02:45:01    2218564

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After the first 2 years of the round-robin series, it is now completely obvious that there is no advantage whatsoever to winning a provincial title. All that matters at the provincial level is qualifying for the knock-out stages of the championship. It will be interesting to see how teams approach the provincial finals next year - I fully expect them to devolve into meaningless challenge matches if the current system is maintained.

Gaillimh_Abu (Galway) - Posts: 843 - 30/07/2019 08:40:06    2218577

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Replying To Viking66:  "Shame to say our county board were against Galway coming in at any level. Certainly I think their presence at Senior has brought our senior team on leaps and bounds and if our minors got to play them more often it would probably have meant theydve performed better than they did last weekend. Galway were battlehardened and our lads looked rusty for want of a better word. The break didnt do our lads any good when you compare it to the performance against Kilkenny in the Leinster final."
Well it is widely reported that only KK would accept Galway in Leinster at all levels. If that assumption is wrong then I am sorry, but otherwise it should be called out. And yes I agree about the four week break as our minors looked off the pace of the game too on Saturday. However KK are a fine side and deserved their win.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 2436 - 30/07/2019 09:37:50    2218594

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Replying To Viking66:  "Shame to say our county board were against Galway coming in at any level. Certainly I think their presence at Senior has brought our senior team on leaps and bounds and if our minors got to play them more often it would probably have meant theydve performed better than they did last weekend. Galway were battlehardened and our lads looked rusty for want of a better word. The break didnt do our lads any good when you compare it to the performance against Kilkenny in the Leinster final."
Well it is widely reported that only KK would accept Galway in Leinster at all levels. If that assumption is wrong then I am sorry, but otherwise it should be called out. And yes I agree about the four week break as our minors looked off the pace of the game too on Saturday. However KK are a fine side and deserved their win.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 2436 - 30/07/2019 09:38:02    2218595

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Well either that or whoever wins the 2 provincial winners just plays in the All-Ireland final. Maybe we afford too many teams too many second chances?

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 868 - 30/07/2019 09:41:56    2218598

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Replying To legendzxix:  "A 4 week gap is simply too much. There should be no more that a 3 week gap. Fixtures have to fit that very simple directive."
Reasonable suggestion but there'd still be excuses made if the provincial champions lost.

ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1112 - 30/07/2019 10:25:28    2218618

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Replying To StoreysTash:  "Well either that or whoever wins the 2 provincial winners just plays in the All-Ireland final. Maybe we afford too many teams too many second chances?"
I'm beginning to think that is the only way to end this argument that comes up every year. It would be a shame though, the All Ireland QFs and SFs in the past number of years have produced some of the most exciting games ever played.

Of course, when Kilkenny would routinely win their semi-finals after a 5-week break post Leinster final, it was because they were "refreshed" after the break and could "peak" for their semi-final against teams who were "burnt out" from their qualifiers/quarter-finals.

As the Americans say, go figure.

ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1112 - 30/07/2019 10:44:25    2218634

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Replying To tiobraid:  "Go home you're drunk!
Limerick and WExford supporters went beserk when they won this year and rightly so. Once again you have 3 teams this year with cship trophies that mean a lot to them and throw Laois into that too! Now more than ever the provincials mean a lot"
Yes, but with a straight face can you say Tipp tried their level best in this years Munster Final. I have strenuously defended the old provincial system in the past, but now I think its day is gone. I reiterate that any of of those three teams will not be over pushed about next years Munster and as Wexford have now regained the Leinster Championship they may more ruthlessly focus on the All Ireland only next year. As somebody said if they restored Quarter finals for provincial champions it might alleviate this situation.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 2436 - 30/07/2019 11:25:21    2218669

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The Provincial Hurling Championships can be kept as they serve 2 objectives. 1st they allow the Munster & Leinster championships to continue and a lot of GAA people love those competitions and the history that goes with them.
The 2nd role they play is that they are 2 round robin leagues that allow some teams to progress to the All Ireland series and others are out of the competition. To give all teams, champions, losers and 3rd place qualifiers the same amount of games we should eliminate the 2 Preliminary Q/F's and have all 8 teams left play a quarter final.

The All Ireland series could be as follows:
Munster Champions play Q/F against the McDonagh Cup Winners ( rotate every 2nd year ).
Leinster Champions play Q/F against the McDonagh Cup Losers ( rotate every 2nd year ).
Beaten Leinster Finalist plays Q/F against 3rd team in Munster.
Beaten Munster Finilast plays Q/F against 3rd team in Leinster.

Provincial champions if they progress can be kept apart at semi final stage.

Clubgaa (Limerick) - Posts: 833 - 30/07/2019 11:54:20    2218683

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "Yes, but with a straight face can you say Tipp tried their level best in this years Munster Final. I have strenuously defended the old provincial system in the past, but now I think its day is gone. I reiterate that any of of those three teams will not be over pushed about next years Munster and as Wexford have now regained the Leinster Championship they may more ruthlessly focus on the All Ireland only next year. As somebody said if they restored Quarter finals for provincial champions it might alleviate this situation."
So Tipp decided to hammer everyone in the round robin series in Munster to then go on and throw a Munster Final and struggle past Laois and are a man down and five points down to the Wexford and fight back to win and you're of the opinion it was some sort of master plan all along????? Reading that back it would a great movie.

SamandLiamSoon (Galway) - Posts: 512 - 30/07/2019 12:00:49    2218686

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No way should the provincial championship be scrapped they play their part in our games, the big problem is at minor and senior level in hurling the advantage of winning the all Ireland after winning your provincial final is gone. Look at the 2 minor matches last weekend Wexford and Limerick were nowhere near the level they were at during the Munster and Leinster championships the 4 week break killed their momentum, Kilkenny and Galway had a round robin with Clare which gave them better preparation.

Limerick seniors were blown out of it on Saturday in 1st 20 minutes and it took them too long to up to the intensity and speed of championship hurling. In fairness Wexford played a good game it's hard to blame the 4 week break for their loss alright but im sure it didn't them help either. If you look at the champions league final this year the pace and speed which Tottenham and Liverpool were playing during the year and then they had a 3 week break til the final, it was nearly played like a pre-season friendly paced game, their sharpness and intensity had gone.

The advantage has to be given back to the provincial winners, my solution for senior level is 2 weeks between last round of round robin group games and the provincial final and 2 weeks break between provincial final and semi-finals, 2nd and 3rd in Munster and Leinster play each other in the quarter finals between provincial finals and semi-finals. As I much as it was brilliant to see laois do well this year, I would take the Joe McDonagh teams out of the Liam McCarthy cup to free up fixture congestion, it might be unfair but like I said the advantage has to be given to the provincial winners.

For minor the round robin after the provincial championships is because Galway are not allowed in Leinster. It's a simple solution for minor put Galway in Leinster no quarter finals after the provincial finals,1st play 2nd in the semi-finals between Munster and Leinster.

DUALSUPPORT (Limerick) - Posts: 719 - 30/07/2019 12:22:58    2218696

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Replying To BliainanÁir:  "If Galway didn't get those two games against the other provincial losers wouldn't they really be cold heading into an All Ireland semi or final.

Bit like the Galway seniors. Not happy with the straight semi, playing in Leinster, playing in Munster.

Do ye want to go back to playing the Connacht final v Roscommon in hurling again?"
I seriously doubt anyone in Galway wants to go back to the old system of going straight into an All Ireland semi final or quarter final at any level, Leinster has been great for Galway, and if truth be told it has livened up the Leinster Championship no end. Yes a Leinster title will never mean anything near as much to a Galway player or fan, but until the powers that be finally move with the times and do away with the Provincial championships in both football and hurling, we will gladly take it, and we're glad to have it as well. Finally the Galway Minors should also be in the Leinster Championship, and shame on those counties who voted against it on the basis that Galway are way too strong at Minor level.

gilly1910 (Galway) - Posts: 102 - 30/07/2019 12:39:25    2218706

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Don't agree with the argument of the 4 week lay off. Teams now will have played at least 5 games before getting to a semi final by winning their province. Plenty of time to get up to pace.

2014, 2015 and 2016, Kilkenny played 2 games to get to a semi and had a 5 week break after Leinster final. Teams they played game through a qualifier series and they still got into the final. At that stage Kilkenny were much weaker than they were in 06-12.

There was a puck of a ball between both sets of teams at the weekend. No way Tipp beating Laois had anything to do with that. KK were either missing some key players for the Leinster Final or had players returning from long layoffs, these players were pivotal in the match against Cork. Hogan got 1-2, Walsh got 4 points from the bench.

It might be an argument if the provincial winners were getting hammered. There is nothing between the top 8 teams and they could go out again this weekend and results would be completely different.

Faithfull (Offaly) - Posts: 573 - 30/07/2019 13:07:28    2218716

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Replying To Maroonatic:  "The provincial championship's should have been consigned to history long ago. It's not going to happen any time soon though, too much money, prestige and more tellingly power involved. No way would the provincial council's relinquish their grip
So, for the foreseable they'll fudge, bodge, and fooster them into shape allowing all manner of permutations and contrivances to keep them breathing. Then at the end they'll slap that auld hogwash of the 'magic of a Munster/Leinster Final' over it and say sure hurling's thriving."
Dont forget to add that people like it to the list of reasons.

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1106 - 30/07/2019 16:10:11    2218786

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Replying To Clubgaa:  "The Provincial Hurling Championships can be kept as they serve 2 objectives. 1st they allow the Munster & Leinster championships to continue and a lot of GAA people love those competitions and the history that goes with them.
The 2nd role they play is that they are 2 round robin leagues that allow some teams to progress to the All Ireland series and others are out of the competition. To give all teams, champions, losers and 3rd place qualifiers the same amount of games we should eliminate the 2 Preliminary Q/F's and have all 8 teams left play a quarter final.

The All Ireland series could be as follows:
Munster Champions play Q/F against the McDonagh Cup Winners ( rotate every 2nd year ).
Leinster Champions play Q/F against the McDonagh Cup Losers ( rotate every 2nd year ).
Beaten Leinster Finalist plays Q/F against 3rd team in Munster.
Beaten Munster Finilast plays Q/F against 3rd team in Leinster.

Provincial champions if they progress can be kept apart at semi final stage."
Best solution from what I can see. Gives the winners a game but also a bit of an advantage.

Munster championship was amazing last year and Leinster this time so I just dont get all the hate. Between structures and referees and moaning about the Dubs I sometimes wonder do the people on here like GAA

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1106 - 30/07/2019 16:16:20    2218789

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Replying To Clubgaa:  "The Provincial Hurling Championships can be kept as they serve 2 objectives. 1st they allow the Munster & Leinster championships to continue and a lot of GAA people love those competitions and the history that goes with them.
The 2nd role they play is that they are 2 round robin leagues that allow some teams to progress to the All Ireland series and others are out of the competition. To give all teams, champions, losers and 3rd place qualifiers the same amount of games we should eliminate the 2 Preliminary Q/F's and have all 8 teams left play a quarter final.

The All Ireland series could be as follows:
Munster Champions play Q/F against the McDonagh Cup Winners ( rotate every 2nd year ).
Leinster Champions play Q/F against the McDonagh Cup Losers ( rotate every 2nd year ).
Beaten Leinster Finalist plays Q/F against 3rd team in Munster.
Beaten Munster Finilast plays Q/F against 3rd team in Leinster.

Provincial champions if they progress can be kept apart at semi final stage."
There is absolutely no benefit to winning the provincial championship in that case though. There is currently 4 matches to eliminate 2 teams. That is ridiculous and a money grab.

There is no way to eliminate the lay-off while also making sure the benefit of winning the province is there.

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 868 - 30/07/2019 18:07:19    2218832

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1. Provincial Finals Weekend.
2. Rest weekend for provincial runners-up.
3. All-Ireland quarter-finals.
4. All-Ireland semi-finals.

Provincial winners should wait know more than 3 weeks for the semi-finals. Within this time frame, provincial runners-up can still have a weekend off prior to the quarter-finals.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6261 - 30/07/2019 18:08:24    2218834

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