National Forum

Is It Time To Bury Provincial Hurling Championships- At Senior Level

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Replying To Clubgaa:  "I think there is. The provincial winners get a Q/F against the 2 lowest ranking teams left in the McCarthy cup. Also they have a championship match in between the Provincial finals and the All Ireland final. It gets rid of the dreaded 4 week break for provincial champions and it keeps the Provincial championships alive and there are a lot of GAA people that place great value in the provincial championships."
All it would take was for a Laois over Dublin style victory to have everyone saying "Sure whats the point in winning Leinster/Munster".

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 864 - 31/07/2019 16:57:00    2219169

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Replying To omahant:  "You know - you don't have to like the GAA (admin), if appointment of an alternative/ independent body would do better in promoting our beloved games !"
You are right. I should have said gaelic games not GAA but mostly I was being dramatic.

But so is anyone who thinks the provintials are dead when it looks pretty clear most hurling fans loved it the last 2 years

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1106 - 31/07/2019 21:29:39    2219240

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Replying To Canuck:  "Every thing in life evolves. I am sure no one would want us to go back to players wearing peaky caps and running at the goal tender doing their level best to kill him. The championship is a league now anyway. Scrap the league (all other competitions also) and run the All- Ireland series on a league system. Provinces run a championship if they wish on a knock out basis. This will free up months of the year for club competition the feeder roots to what we enjoy."
Not all goal tenders-as you call them- were as timid as that. I once played in a full back line completely devoid of skill, speed or hurling intelligence ( these delightful attributes was no hindrance to been selected in the junior full back lines of my youth). Behind us was a goalkeeper who defended his lines with an almost manical hatred for approach opposition players. As a we battled to keep out equally useless forwards our hero would exhort us to 'let in the hoors and I'll skull 'em.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 2427 - 31/07/2019 21:47:22    2219248

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Replying To StoreysTash:  "All it would take was for a Laois over Dublin style victory to have everyone saying "Sure whats the point in winning Leinster/Munster"."
Would'nt that be briliiant if one of the McDonagh teams beat a provincial winner.

Clubgaa (Limerick) - Posts: 833 - 31/07/2019 22:56:50    2219282

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I think ClubGAA's tweaking of the system is the best suggestion so far. Keeps the AI QFs and SFs which have been been magical the last number of years; gives the provincial champions a "loosener" against the McDonagh teams before their semi-final; gives the McDonagh teams a chance to have a crack at a "big" team; increases the "punishment" for finishing third in the group (under the current system the 3rd teams faced Laois and Westmeath, under the revised system they'd have faced Tipp and Kilkenny - big difference). The more I think about it the more I like it.

Now, the problem is if the provincial champs still can't hold their liquor in AI SFs in this system, and the grumbling continues, the only solution would be to just fast track the Leinster and Munster champions straight to the All Ireland final and be done with it.

ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1112 - 31/07/2019 23:29:43    2219289

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Replying To ballydalane:  "I think ClubGAA's tweaking of the system is the best suggestion so far. Keeps the AI QFs and SFs which have been been magical the last number of years; gives the provincial champions a "loosener" against the McDonagh teams before their semi-final; gives the McDonagh teams a chance to have a crack at a "big" team; increases the "punishment" for finishing third in the group (under the current system the 3rd teams faced Laois and Westmeath, under the revised system they'd have faced Tipp and Kilkenny - big difference). The more I think about it the more I like it.

Now, the problem is if the provincial champs still can't hold their liquor in AI SFs in this system, and the grumbling continues, the only solution would be to just fast track the Leinster and Munster champions straight to the All Ireland final and be done with it."
Yes that is the best that can be done. I started this thread, but up to now I have always defended the Provincial Championships. I remember, and was there, on days like Thurles '73,( LK after 18 years) Thurles '95 ( Clare ' after 63 years and I went to Ennis on that beautiful Sunday evening to celebrate. I travelled with a Clare man and as we passed pubs in East Limerick, on our return journey, people drinking Al fresco bedecked in Limerick jerseys raised their glasses to 'The Banners' flying high. An absolutely memorable day. In 96 I was in Cork for the replayed Munster Final, but I made my way to Gorey for the Wexford homecoming, (after 28 years) It was again an unforgettable night. I also remember the huge celebrations in Clare (92), Leitrim '94, Laois 03 and Westmeath 04 when provincial success was achieved by counties who had little real chance of All Ireland glory.
Days like those make the provincial championships highly defensible, but I think will wither on the vine if the present system remains as it is.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 2427 - 01/08/2019 11:26:13    2219371

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I think the best thing that could be done would be to just have a 12 team league.

The competition includes the Provincials in a knockout format, those games count towards the standings and every team plays each of the other 12 that they hadn't met already in the Provincial championship.

5 home games, 5 away games and 1 neutral game each season.

Top 4 or 6 to All Ireland playoffs.

Bottom team relegated.

Second bottom plays a relegation playoff with the beaten finalist of the tier 2 competition.

The attendance rates at the Munster championship round robin games are actually higher than when it was straight knockout. I really do feel that people are incredibly interested in hurling at the minute and the more games the better.

If you look at the matches and results of the last couple of seasons I think it likely that there would be a lot of important matches in the closing stages of the league section. The teams take points of one another all over the place.

I think it'd be great to see Galway v Cork every season in the championship. Kilkenny v Tipp every year.

Waterford had a poor Munster campaign but they could have caused problems for the Leinster teams had they been playing them.

Maybe Clare could have made the last 6 with a few more games played. Maybe there were only 2 Leinster teams in the top 6.

Maybe Carlow could've caused a shock. How would Laois and Westmeath do with more matches. Could there be more development?

The 4 Leinster teams were so tight how would they have faired against the Munster 5.

There'd be no wonky relegation and Promotion rules.

If you're in the top 12 you play in your Provincial championship. Galway don't need to be a part of Leinster to be treated like all other teams in the competition.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3111 - 01/08/2019 11:58:20    2219387

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I believe they should be moved to replace the league as an individual competition. Open competition in summer tied to provincial championships where teams are seeded based on how they faired.
Although if they are to be scraped I'd like them to wait til we've beaten Cork in one.

Buachaillbui (Clare) - Posts: 94 - 01/08/2019 21:29:19    2219575

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Replying To Buachaillbui:  "I believe they should be moved to replace the league as an individual competition. Open competition in summer tied to provincial championships where teams are seeded based on how they faired.
Although if they are to be scraped I'd like them to wait til we've beaten Cork in one."
ah here we don't want to wait until we have all shuffled off this mortal coil for the changes to happen :)

perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3841 - 01/08/2019 21:44:47    2219578

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Replying To perfect10:  "ah here we don't want to wait until we have all shuffled off this mortal coil for the changes to happen :)"
;-)

Buachaillbui (Clare) - Posts: 94 - 01/08/2019 23:01:53    2219609

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "Yes, but with a straight face can you say Tipp tried their level best in this years Munster Final. I have strenuously defended the old provincial system in the past, but now I think its day is gone. I reiterate that any of of those three teams will not be over pushed about next years Munster and as Wexford have now regained the Leinster Championship they may more ruthlessly focus on the All Ireland only next year. As somebody said if they restored Quarter finals for provincial champions it might alleviate this situation."
100% Tipp wanted to win Munster this year. They were completely overpowered by a better team on the day. Possibly believed the hype too. You could also argue Limerick are just a better team anyway and we never would beat them in Limerick anyway.

Provincials are so important. Some teams can strive for a provincial win but an all ireland is sometimes an unrealistic aim. Getting rid of them reduces cship cups from 3 to 1. It won't and should never happen, especially not now.

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 2911 - 01/08/2019 23:39:13    2219619

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Provincial champions + Joe McDonagh champions advance to SF. The teams who finish third play the provincial losers. The two winners have a play-off to decide who gets the final spot in the semi-final.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 02/08/2019 01:20:46    2219627

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I think the best thing that could be done would be to just have a 12 team league.

The competition includes the Provincials in a knockout format, those games count towards the standings and every team plays each of the other 12 that they hadn't met already in the Provincial championship.

5 home games, 5 away games and 1 neutral game each season.

Top 4 or 6 to All Ireland playoffs.

Bottom team relegated.

Second bottom plays a relegation playoff with the beaten finalist of the tier 2 competition.

The attendance rates at the Munster championship round robin games are actually higher than when it was straight knockout. I really do feel that people are incredibly interested in hurling at the minute and the more games the better.

If you look at the matches and results of the last couple of seasons I think it likely that there would be a lot of important matches in the closing stages of the league section. The teams take points of one another all over the place.

I think it'd be great to see Galway v Cork every season in the championship. Kilkenny v Tipp every year.

Waterford had a poor Munster campaign but they could have caused problems for the Leinster teams had they been playing them.

Maybe Clare could have made the last 6 with a few more games played. Maybe there were only 2 Leinster teams in the top 6.

Maybe Carlow could've caused a shock. How would Laois and Westmeath do with more matches. Could there be more development?

The 4 Leinster teams were so tight how would they have faired against the Munster 5.

There'd be no wonky relegation and Promotion rules.

If you're in the top 12 you play in your Provincial championship. Galway don't need to be a part of Leinster to be treated like all other teams in the competition."
To your point - why not have a Lein 6 and Muns 6 (latter 6th is either Kerry or 7th Lein).
Prov 5 game round robin - top 3 of 6 in each to AI KO.
NHL - Each 6 plays 6 Inter-Prov - top 3 of 6 in each to AI KO.
Best 4 of 12 to AI KO QFs - other 8 of 12 to AI QF Playoff Rd.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1824 - 02/08/2019 01:25:03    2219628

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Replying To perfect10:  "ah here we don't want to wait until we have all shuffled off this mortal coil for the changes to happen :)"
Haha , ah shure we can all live in hope :-)

Buachaillbui (Clare) - Posts: 94 - 02/08/2019 08:04:22    2219637

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The Leinster Championship was great this year. The Munster Championship didn't get going but it was still good and attracted big crowds.

A 3 week gap from provincial final to All-Ireland semi-final is the solution in the interest of fairness.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6261 - 02/08/2019 09:32:39    2219650

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The Leinster Championship was great this year. The Munster Championship didn't get going but it was still good and attracted big crowds.

A 3 week gap from provincial final to All-Ireland semi-final is the solution in the interest of fairness."
There is also a problem with the sequencing of the round robin games - some teams play 3 games on the hop - while my Cork had a 3-week break in the 2019 middle - for simple solution - have the bye schedule as follows - A, BCD, E, ABC, D, E.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1824 - 09/08/2019 16:33:48    2223118

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Replying To omahant:  "There is also a problem with the sequencing of the round robin games - some teams play 3 games on the hop - while my Cork had a 3-week break in the 2019 middle - for simple solution - have the bye schedule as follows - A, BCD, E, ABC, D, E."
The McDonagh Cup runs the fixture list correctly for a 5 team group. It might mean that a team might play 2 home games before there away games or vice versa but it ensures all teams do not play more than 2 weekends in a row.

Example:
Week 1. 1v4, 2v5
Week 2. 5v3, 4v2
Week 3. 3v1
Week 4. 4v5
Week 5. 5v1, 2v3
Week 6. 1v2, 3v4

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6261 - 09/08/2019 19:40:45    2223177

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Time to have open draw both codes knockout ....let the players and in particular their families have a life out side gaa in summer

Hitnhurl (Cork) - Posts: 92 - 09/08/2019 20:54:47    2223189

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Replying To Hitnhurl:  "Time to have open draw both codes knockout ....let the players and in particular their families have a life out side gaa in summer"
Players dont want open draw knock out though. They want more games not less.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 1636 - 09/08/2019 21:39:14    2223211

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Players dont want open draw knock out though. They want more games not less."
Do they? Thanks for that poll can you give me a reference for that study please ? The gaa want more games more money

Hitnhurl (Cork) - Posts: 92 - 09/08/2019 22:02:32    2223220

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