National Forum

Is It Time To Bury Provincial Hurling Championships- At Senior Level

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Replying To Breezy:  "I think the wait was mostly about a fear of getting to far away from the old September final. The current system still packs the round robin to tight for me and spreading that would help with the 4/5 week problem"
Yeah good point

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3121 - 23/01/2020 17:57:35    2261822

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Replying To suckvalleypaddy:  "very true. Galway blew it last year by beating KK in Nolan Park. We should have sent down the C team and kept our best for Parnell Park the following Sunday. It was an absolute disaster."
This is absolutely true

maroondiesel (Mayo) - Posts: 1043 - 23/01/2020 20:41:51    2261844

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For me I think the senior inter county goes on for far too long.

For the league:
why can't the top team in each group just play off a final and be done with it?
It's no more than a squad development competition.

For the championship:
I had my doubts but I think the round robin system is a true test of who is best in the 'provinces'.
I can understand why some think it's better to finish third, but that anomaly can easily be resolved. The 4 provincial finalists go straight to the semi finals.

This would free up at least 6 weeks and allow club hurling to be played in the summer

Ej (Wexford) - Posts: 352 - 24/01/2020 00:23:54    2261864

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Replying To Ej:  "For me I think the senior inter county goes on for far too long.

For the league:
why can't the top team in each group just play off a final and be done with it?
It's no more than a squad development competition.

For the championship:
I had my doubts but I think the round robin system is a true test of who is best in the 'provinces'.
I can understand why some think it's better to finish third, but that anomaly can easily be resolved. The 4 provincial finalists go straight to the semi finals.

This would free up at least 6 weeks and allow club hurling to be played in the summer"
The amont of knockout rounds in the league is a joke. At this point theres almost no difference between league and AI structures

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1106 - 24/01/2020 12:42:21    2261918

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Replying To Faithfull:  "A super 10's format would work really well in hurling. Play provincial championships off on a knock out basis and then throw the 10 Leinster and Munster teams into a hat and draw 2 groups of 5 with the top 2 in each group into the semi finals. Provincial winners in different groups with the runners up going in with the winner from the other province.

Bottom 2 teams playoff for relegation with McDonagh winners coming up the following year. It would completely take away the narrative that Munster teams have it harder etc etc and no uneven breaks for semi finalists."
I had an idea like this - EXCEPT - to keep game count down, I allowed the 8 KO games across both Provs to 'form' two 5-team mixed-Prov groups (no draw) with KO results counting in the groups.

How ? -
- Put Muns QF loser in Group A, its QF opponent in Group B.
- Put that Muns QF winner's SF opponent in Group A.
- Other SF is played - teams split 1 to each group- so Muns Finalists are placed in opposite groups.
- Do similar with Lein - EXCEPT - Lein QF loser is placed in Group B before the other 4 are placed.
- Complete '5 in A v 5 in B'.
- AI KO - each 'draw half' consists of intra-group pairings - EITHER, QFs 2nd v 3rd in 'same group' with winner playing 'same group' wnner in AI SF - OR more simply, the top 2 in each group go 'head-to-head' in respective AI SFs.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1825 - 28/01/2020 00:12:33    2263094

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It should just be open draw. Top 2 into the semi-finals. 5th placed teams go into a relegation final.

Pool A

Waterford, Kilkenny, Dublin, Clare, and Tipperary.

Pool B

Laois, Cork, Limerick, Wexford, and Galway.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 28/01/2020 11:34:34    2263156

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We have to be realistic. Removing the provincial championship is a non runner, and rightly so in my opinion.
However the old argument that teams could train for 7 months and be out after 1 or 2 games is gone in hurling.

Ej (Wexford) - Posts: 352 - 28/01/2020 14:22:29    2263208

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "It should just be open draw. Top 2 into the semi-finals. 5th placed teams go into a relegation final.

Pool A

Waterford, Kilkenny, Dublin, Clare, and Tipperary.

Pool B

Laois, Cork, Limerick, Wexford, and Galway."
Yes, OK - but what's wrong with keeping Prov KO link - games would be doubly valuable, counting toward group record as well.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1825 - 28/01/2020 22:24:38    2263352

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My Prov link will always allocate three teams from one Prov and two from the other in each group, just like you have it.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1825 - 29/01/2020 13:35:21    2263497

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Replying To omahant:  "My Prov link will always allocate three teams from one Prov and two from the other in each group, just like you have it."
I think that'd be a very good system.

I believe it could also allow the competition to be expanded to 12 teams which is for me the ideal number.

3 developing teams alongside the 9 more established counties.

This is when your systems are at their best. A small trick to improve things without getting unnecessarily complex.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3121 - 29/01/2020 15:56:56    2263539

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I think that'd be a very good system.

I believe it could also allow the competition to be expanded to 12 teams which is for me the ideal number.

3 developing teams alongside the 9 more established counties.

This is when your systems are at their best. A small trick to improve things without getting unnecessarily complex."
What's wrong with the current format?

Ej (Wexford) - Posts: 352 - 29/01/2020 18:42:48    2263583

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Replying To Ej:  "What's wrong with the current format?"
The gammy promotion structure where Kerry are disadvantaged.

The odd number in each group that means not every team plays their final round of matches in the same week l.

The Munster group is probably stronger than the Leinster group.

There's only 1 place for a developing team.

I personally dislike the GAA's solution of allowing lower level teams into the knockout rounds at the expense of those that have had much harder schedules.

I think there's room for more games if the NHL and Championship were merged.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3121 - 29/01/2020 20:17:54    2263610

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Replying To Whammo86:  "The gammy promotion structure where Kerry are disadvantaged.

The odd number in each group that means not every team plays their final round of matches in the same week l.

The Munster group is probably stronger than the Leinster group.

There's only 1 place for a developing team.

I personally dislike the GAA's solution of allowing lower level teams into the knockout rounds at the expense of those that have had much harder schedules.

I think there's room for more games if the NHL and Championship were merged."
I posted on here before that the NHL is only a development competition. Have the 2 group winners play off in the final and be done with it.
This frees up 4 weeks.
The provincial competition if needed can be 6 teams (but that's down to Kerry wanting it). The reality is the provincial championships generate enormous revenue and as the games are all within close geographical proximity it reduces the cost for those that go to the games.

Ej (Wexford) - Posts: 352 - 29/01/2020 21:39:11    2263635

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Replying To Whammo86:  "The gammy promotion structure where Kerry are disadvantaged.

The odd number in each group that means not every team plays their final round of matches in the same week l.

The Munster group is probably stronger than the Leinster group.

There's only 1 place for a developing team.

I personally dislike the GAA's solution of allowing lower level teams into the knockout rounds at the expense of those that have had much harder schedules.

I think there's room for more games if the NHL and Championship were merged."
I posted on here before that the NHL is only a development competition. Have the 2 group winners play off in the final and be done with it.
This frees up 4 weeks.
The provincial competition if needed can be 6 teams (but that's down to Kerry wanting it). The reality is the provincial championships generate enormous revenue and as the games are all within close geographical proximity it reduces the cost for those that go to the games.

Ej (Wexford) - Posts: 352 - 29/01/2020 21:39:21    2263636

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Replying To Ej:  "I posted on here before that the NHL is only a development competition. Have the 2 group winners play off in the final and be done with it.
This frees up 4 weeks.
The provincial competition if needed can be 6 teams (but that's down to Kerry wanting it). The reality is the provincial championships generate enormous revenue and as the games are all within close geographical proximity it reduces the cost for those that go to the games."
Well that's not really true because Galway play in Leinster.

The games draw big revenue because they are between well matched teams. I don't think that'd change if games like Kilkenny v Tipp and Galway v Cork were added to the mix.

If you'd a 12 team single round robin with top 6 going to the knockout rounds I think you'd have a super championship.

March to August for the league phase with club games being able to be scheduled around the fixtures.

No need for the league.

This whole development competition guff is rubbish in my book. Yes you blood new players but do you actually learn if they'll be able to cope with championship from games in Jan to mid March. I don't see how you can.

Just make a better main competition.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3121 - 30/01/2020 10:27:03    2263701

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I think that'd be a very good system.

I believe it could also allow the competition to be expanded to 12 teams which is for me the ideal number.

3 developing teams alongside the 9 more established counties.

This is when your systems are at their best. A small trick to improve things without getting unnecessarily complex."
To your earlier point - as I have inter group here, best to have KO of top 4 or 6 overall in lieu of 2 or 3 from each group- and former lessens dead rubbers too.
Would GAA or fans go for exclusive cross over inter group - that's unheard of too ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1825 - 30/01/2020 13:24:30    2263755

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Well that's not really true because Galway play in Leinster.

The games draw big revenue because they are between well matched teams. I don't think that'd change if games like Kilkenny v Tipp and Galway v Cork were added to the mix.

If you'd a 12 team single round robin with top 6 going to the knockout rounds I think you'd have a super championship.

March to August for the league phase with club games being able to be scheduled around the fixtures.

No need for the league.

This whole development competition guff is rubbish in my book. Yes you blood new players but do you actually learn if they'll be able to cope with championship from games in Jan to mid March. I don't see how you can.

Just make a better main competition."
Who wants to see the end of their provincial championship? The supporters of Limerick? Tipp? Clare? Cork? Waterford? Kilkenny? Dublin? Wexford?

Galway don't have a provincial championship of their own. They are the only realistic contender for an all Ireland outside of Munster and Leinster.

The league is and always has been a valuable testing ground for teams to experiment and blood new players and systems. My own county is a good example: we tried Kevin Foley as 'sweeper' and moved Shaun Murphy into the half backs. The league gave us the opportunity to see if it could work and to bed it in.

My issue with it is that it drags on for too long. After 5 games county panels and their team set up have been determined and by then everything is gearing towards the championship.

The provincial championship in my opinion works just fine. If last year is anything to go by, the best 2 teams in both provinces in 2019 got to their respective finals.

Ej (Wexford) - Posts: 352 - 30/01/2020 13:35:47    2263759

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I think that'd be a very good system.

I believe it could also allow the competition to be expanded to 12 teams which is for me the ideal number.

3 developing teams alongside the 9 more established counties.

This is when your systems are at their best. A small trick to improve things without getting unnecessarily complex."
Also, for a combined AI SFC / NFL (repeating some prior themes) -
Start season with 4 Provs of 8 (3 Lein and 1 Uls reallocated based on prior low NFL finish).
Play the Prov KO QFs & SFs as normal.
After Prov SFs, form 2 separate '8v8' (similar to SHC 5v5 or 6v6).
Provs paired based on current 3-yr rotation (2020 has UvL and CvM).
Group UL and Group LU each has 1 U & 1 L Finalist along with a beaten SF2 & QF4 (teams allocated to the group opposite their KO opponents).
Do same for Groups MC and CM.
Top 6 of 16 in each '8v8' to AI KO 12 (4 best records get byes to QFs).
In 2021, groups will be UM, MU, CL, LC.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1825 - 30/01/2020 14:06:38    2263768

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Replying To omahant:  "Also, for a combined AI SFC / NFL (repeating some prior themes) -
Start season with 4 Provs of 8 (3 Lein and 1 Uls reallocated based on prior low NFL finish).
Play the Prov KO QFs & SFs as normal.
After Prov SFs, form 2 separate '8v8' (similar to SHC 5v5 or 6v6).
Provs paired based on current 3-yr rotation (2020 has UvL and CvM).
Group UL and Group LU each has 1 U & 1 L Finalist along with a beaten SF2 & QF4 (teams allocated to the group opposite their KO opponents).
Do same for Groups MC and CM.
Top 6 of 16 in each '8v8' to AI KO 12 (4 best records get byes to QFs).
In 2021, groups will be UM, MU, CL, LC."
How many game weeks will this take to complete?

Ej (Wexford) - Posts: 352 - 30/01/2020 15:19:02    2263800

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Replying To omahant:  "Also, for a combined AI SFC / NFL (repeating some prior themes) -
Start season with 4 Provs of 8 (3 Lein and 1 Uls reallocated based on prior low NFL finish).
Play the Prov KO QFs & SFs as normal.
After Prov SFs, form 2 separate '8v8' (similar to SHC 5v5 or 6v6).
Provs paired based on current 3-yr rotation (2020 has UvL and CvM).
Group UL and Group LU each has 1 U & 1 L Finalist along with a beaten SF2 & QF4 (teams allocated to the group opposite their KO opponents).
Do same for Groups MC and CM.
Top 6 of 16 in each '8v8' to AI KO 12 (4 best records get byes to QFs).
In 2021, groups will be UM, MU, CL, LC."
How many game weeks will this take to complete?

Ej (Wexford) - Posts: 352 - 30/01/2020 15:19:13    2263801

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