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Tradition

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Replying To worple:  "For a start ,I said personal sin."
Personal sin and Original sin are different.

worple (Roscommon) - Posts: 294 - 17/01/2021 19:24:54    2327845

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Replying To arock:  "In terms of chucking the ball in at half time is probably no different to people placing children into their care. The Catholic church Post Act of Union (1801) was a church financed and totally beholding to the British establishment in Ireland. The Catholic Church in the 15th/16th century was a very different thing to the Roman lackeys in 19th/20th century. In terms of the GAA they patronised the Games, patronised politics and btw Protestant faiths were no different. We can wag retrospective fingers back in time, but four pillars of society colluded to allow suffering on an industrial scale. Society yeah our grandparents judged and washed their hands of young women and babies, the Justice system courts and guards facilliated it, politicians devised and the Christian church were to make of these young women and children. Men abused these women, condemned them and allowed it all to happen. Read Archbishop MacQuaids attempts to ban Camogie, in fact the Catholic church forbid the games, denied access to pitches, it was the British that gave the Camogie associated some grounds in Phoenix Park. So remember their is a reason why they are not members of GAA they were not wanted and remarkable some still hold that. In terms of beliefs these are private things to abuse anyone because of their gender, colour, faith is a hate crime. Freedom has limits it has always been so, and before people say religion is responsible for wars thats a fantasy, man is. Hitler, Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot were all committed atheists."
Stalin was a seminarian for the Orthodox Church in his youth.

MicktheMiller (Offaly) - Posts: 320 - 17/01/2021 19:26:30    2327846

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Replying To arock:  "In terms of chucking the ball in at half time is probably no different to people placing children into their care. The Catholic church Post Act of Union (1801) was a church financed and totally beholding to the British establishment in Ireland. The Catholic Church in the 15th/16th century was a very different thing to the Roman lackeys in 19th/20th century. In terms of the GAA they patronised the Games, patronised politics and btw Protestant faiths were no different. We can wag retrospective fingers back in time, but four pillars of society colluded to allow suffering on an industrial scale. Society yeah our grandparents judged and washed their hands of young women and babies, the Justice system courts and guards facilliated it, politicians devised and the Christian church were to make of these young women and children. Men abused these women, condemned them and allowed it all to happen. Read Archbishop MacQuaids attempts to ban Camogie, in fact the Catholic church forbid the games, denied access to pitches, it was the British that gave the Camogie associated some grounds in Phoenix Park. So remember their is a reason why they are not members of GAA they were not wanted and remarkable some still hold that. In terms of beliefs these are private things to abuse anyone because of their gender, colour, faith is a hate crime. Freedom has limits it has always been so, and before people say religion is responsible for wars thats a fantasy, man is. Hitler, Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot were all committed atheists."
Stalin was a seminarian for the Orthodox Church in his youth.

MicktheMiller (Offaly) - Posts: 320 - 17/01/2021 19:26:43    2327847

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There is a series of lectures from Trinity College by Zoom starting Jan 27th.
Why not look in and get questions answered by experts instead of interrogating men of average ignorance like myself!
tcd.ie/loyola-institute

worple (Roscommon) - Posts: 294 - 17/01/2021 20:23:59    2327854

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This has developed into an interesting topic.I applaud the way potters have exchanged viewpoints without shooting the messenger.
There used to be a site called AN Fear Rua some years back which carried a lot of GAA stuff but not exclusively.Many posters moved here when it became defunct.

I wouldn't think Admin would have an issue with other topics being broached here in addition to GAA matters.

ONdeDITCH (Limerick) - Posts: 755 - 17/01/2021 21:45:23    2327857

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Replying To worple:  "For a start ,I said personal sin."
So you did, I should have read more closely.

Well, a newborn is innocent of personal sin AND original sin or any other kind of sin as far as I'm concerned.

I'm curious now what the difference is, but I can look it up myself.

Suas Sios (None) - Posts: 1475 - 18/01/2021 09:35:54    2327875

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As a parting shot to this Tradition thread I would like to point out that even now in pagan(?) England every cup final at Wembley begins with a hymn. If they tried that in Croke Park our spot-on whizzo generation would be livid with rage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg3gCw5mm7c

worple (Roscommon) - Posts: 294 - 18/01/2021 12:42:52    2327913

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Replying To worple:  "As a parting shot to this Tradition thread I would like to point out that even now in pagan(?) England every cup final at Wembley begins with a hymn. If they tried that in Croke Park our spot-on whizzo generation would be livid with rage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg3gCw5mm7c"
Whataboutery isn't much of a parting shot to be honest

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 11840 - 18/01/2021 12:49:22    2327915

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Also there's mass said in Croke Park on AI Final days. Catholic mass. Not sure if there's any services for other faiths but I don't think you have reason to complain other than victimhood.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 11840 - 18/01/2021 12:54:57    2327916

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Replying To MicktheMiller:  "Stalin was a seminarian for the Orthodox Church in his youth."
And Hitler was an altar boy the point is they both hated religion, didnt believe in god and practise genocide on an industrial scale. The problen is us, humans, not god

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4665 - 18/01/2021 21:14:48    2327995

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An open post.
Firstly I had no intention of posting or disrupting the chitter chatter between regular and established posters here debating a contentious issue like "tradition" however because my religion is being debated I felt obliged to contribute. Little was it realised that the asking of a simple question like "When did the tradition of the bishop throwing in the ball at the start of a game cease." that it would create such a stir, an agitation that would provoke what I thought was reasonable posters to offloading what I call wobbling verbals. The opinions from a couple of posters ( which they are entitled to have) is not in my opinion in the true spirit of this forum, in particular to the Gaelic Athletic Association in it's entirety, at the same time they are not out of place, it's all part of what we are.

Being a Roman Catholic myself I must say I'm not at all proud of some of the happenings that came from within the church through time, but I haven't walked away, I don't know why I just can't bring myself around to doing it and to be quiet honest I don't really want to. People and in particular pressure groups have challenged the church as we all know on contentious issues albeit with some success and will continue to challenge.

A couple of things that jumped out at me from post to post was, origins of the universe, science of humanity, human philosophy, the new woke left wing politicians, or the comparison between the "Woke, permanently offended" and the Catholic Church's control in Ireland in the past, attractive buzz words they are no doubt, however they fail to shorten the journey in giving reasonable answers to the many questions being asked here. There are political buzz words too, like, Radical Left, Centre Left, Centre Right, Far Right, Left of Centre, Right of Centre, the list goes on, all in the name of creating confusion, in other words they are meaningless Buzz words, a smoke screen simple as.

Religions in general don't bother me too much as I'm happy with my lot, the likes of the #any movement close coupled to Wokeism bothers me a bit, Pressure groups are the new challenges to be met not the church, the church is bricks and mortar made up of people like us and families like ours, the same families that pushed their sons and daughters into a life in the priesthood, nunneries / convents, brothers / monasteries against their will, a life which a lot of them didn't want, the rest as they say is history, bad history.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2377 - 18/01/2021 22:23:49    2328005

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I hadn't read thus thread on a bit- Christ It has flipped on its head ...

Horsebox77 (Kerry) - Posts: 5332 - 18/01/2021 23:40:26    2328013

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I can understand how members of the Catholic Church find it so difficult to drag themselves away.They are victims of this cult,I was also one.We all were being worked on from the age of 5 or 6 and the roots were buried deep in us.We thought it was faith but really it was just something we inherited from our parents and then at school the doctrine was repeatedly given to us on a daily basis.
I wonder how many would be members if they weren't exposed to this doctrine from such an early age.Perhaps our schools should be secular and not be clouded with religious teaching.Really religion should be left to people to make a choice rather than have it imposed on them.
I have noticed here a recurring theme from those who proclaim their Catholic faith,without fail they all end their posts being an apologist for the Catholic Church.
Having little innocent children exposed to this cult/doctrine is wrong and surely will change in time,there is a difficulty with the Catholic Church controlling so many of our Primary schools.
I can see the Irish State apologizing for this in the future when it will all change,it will take time but surely it will have to change.

ONdeDITCH (Limerick) - Posts: 755 - 19/01/2021 10:58:37    2328035

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Replying To ONdeDITCH:  "I can understand how members of the Catholic Church find it so difficult to drag themselves away.They are victims of this cult,I was also one.We all were being worked on from the age of 5 or 6 and the roots were buried deep in us.We thought it was faith but really it was just something we inherited from our parents and then at school the doctrine was repeatedly given to us on a daily basis.
I wonder how many would be members if they weren't exposed to this doctrine from such an early age.Perhaps our schools should be secular and not be clouded with religious teaching.Really religion should be left to people to make a choice rather than have it imposed on them.
I have noticed here a recurring theme from those who proclaim their Catholic faith,without fail they all end their posts being an apologist for the Catholic Church.
Having little innocent children exposed to this cult/doctrine is wrong and surely will change in time,there is a difficulty with the Catholic Church controlling so many of our Primary schools.
I can see the Irish State apologizing for this in the future when it will all change,it will take time but surely it will have to change."
I am a proud member of the Catholic Church and NOT a victim of any cult. What you're saying equates to Germans not being proud German citizens because of the Holocaust.

Rebel2020 (Cork) - Posts: 24 - 19/01/2021 11:54:26    2328046

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Replying To ONdeDITCH:  "I can understand how members of the Catholic Church find it so difficult to drag themselves away.They are victims of this cult,I was also one.We all were being worked on from the age of 5 or 6 and the roots were buried deep in us.We thought it was faith but really it was just something we inherited from our parents and then at school the doctrine was repeatedly given to us on a daily basis.
I wonder how many would be members if they weren't exposed to this doctrine from such an early age.Perhaps our schools should be secular and not be clouded with religious teaching.Really religion should be left to people to make a choice rather than have it imposed on them.
I have noticed here a recurring theme from those who proclaim their Catholic faith,without fail they all end their posts being an apologist for the Catholic Church.
Having little innocent children exposed to this cult/doctrine is wrong and surely will change in time,there is a difficulty with the Catholic Church controlling so many of our Primary schools.
I can see the Irish State apologizing for this in the future when it will all change,it will take time but surely it will have to change."
I gather from your previous posts that you were educated in the fifties, so your experience sounds like a typical example of the times.
A fairly brutal indoctrination without any explanation.

I had a Catholic priest as my religion teacher in secondary school for 5yrs..and the one fantastic aspect of his classes was his ability to engage our sense of Reason. We were forced as Kids to think for ourselves..ideas were argued and discussed and matters of faith were analysed. It was an education in the truest sense of the word.

That's why I find the comments on here describing the Catholic Church as an oppressive Cult really sad, because I know for a lot of people that's their experience, but it was very far from mine.

I had an experience of Catholic Christianity that has defined who I've become today.

Probably part of the reason behind my initial post about the whole 'Woke, offended mentality' that I see more and more in the country is the complete lack of critical thinking behind it.
Everything seems to be through the prism of "rights and being non-Judgemental"
We seem to have swapped one self righteous set of absolutes as defined by stereotypical Catholicism for another, far more insidious one.

This time it's all based around feelings and the avoidance of feeling bad or even worse, offending someone .. Everything is reactionary..the stupidity of the Gresham hotel taking down the statues before Christmas during the whole BLM hysteria is a prime example. That ball of fluff Canadian prime minister rebuking a young woman who used the word 'Mankind' because it was gender specific.

The US Senate where you'd like to think intelligent people operate trying to include the word 'Awoman' instead of Amen, oblivious to the fact that Amen is an aramaic word meaning "So be it" and has nothing to do with gender..

Removing Micheal Collins hat from the national museum because he was shot in the head is another example. It's a denial of history in case it "upsets someone" to see dried blood. The list goes on.
These are harmless enough in comparison to historical abuse and all the associated evils but if you consider the scenarios we're seeing more and more of, there are considerable parallels beginning to play out.

Kids as young as 12 being allowed to "transition" sexuality often without parental permission because it's their 'right'... With no thought to the long term emotional, physical and psychological impact.
This is just another example of opening doors that will be very difficult to close all in the name of a casual accepting of a persons rights as the ultimate objective. The avoidance of any form of suffering,. So we now have an ideology in Ireland and the West in general where everything's relative to how it feels, there are no moral absolutes tolerated...

My fear is we're only at the tip of the iceberg and in the name of rights and freedom we're going to see a gradual erosion of true freedom. Might happen slowly but history shows time and again what can occur in societies where ideology is allowed free reign, whether its Catholic Ireland or Stalinist Russia.

I'm probably going to watch the All Ireland final now to come down after this post. At least with hurling things are a bit more black and white.

skillet (Limerick) - Posts: 838 - 19/01/2021 12:04:11    2328047

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Replying To skillet:  "I gather from your previous posts that you were educated in the fifties, so your experience sounds like a typical example of the times.
A fairly brutal indoctrination without any explanation.

I had a Catholic priest as my religion teacher in secondary school for 5yrs..and the one fantastic aspect of his classes was his ability to engage our sense of Reason. We were forced as Kids to think for ourselves..ideas were argued and discussed and matters of faith were analysed. It was an education in the truest sense of the word.

That's why I find the comments on here describing the Catholic Church as an oppressive Cult really sad, because I know for a lot of people that's their experience, but it was very far from mine.

I had an experience of Catholic Christianity that has defined who I've become today.

Probably part of the reason behind my initial post about the whole 'Woke, offended mentality' that I see more and more in the country is the complete lack of critical thinking behind it.
Everything seems to be through the prism of "rights and being non-Judgemental"
We seem to have swapped one self righteous set of absolutes as defined by stereotypical Catholicism for another, far more insidious one.

This time it's all based around feelings and the avoidance of feeling bad or even worse, offending someone .. Everything is reactionary..the stupidity of the Gresham hotel taking down the statues before Christmas during the whole BLM hysteria is a prime example. That ball of fluff Canadian prime minister rebuking a young woman who used the word 'Mankind' because it was gender specific.

The US Senate where you'd like to think intelligent people operate trying to include the word 'Awoman' instead of Amen, oblivious to the fact that Amen is an aramaic word meaning "So be it" and has nothing to do with gender..

Removing Micheal Collins hat from the national museum because he was shot in the head is another example. It's a denial of history in case it "upsets someone" to see dried blood. The list goes on.
These are harmless enough in comparison to historical abuse and all the associated evils but if you consider the scenarios we're seeing more and more of, there are considerable parallels beginning to play out.

Kids as young as 12 being allowed to "transition" sexuality often without parental permission because it's their 'right'... With no thought to the long term emotional, physical and psychological impact.
This is just another example of opening doors that will be very difficult to close all in the name of a casual accepting of a persons rights as the ultimate objective. The avoidance of any form of suffering,. So we now have an ideology in Ireland and the West in general where everything's relative to how it feels, there are no moral absolutes tolerated...

My fear is we're only at the tip of the iceberg and in the name of rights and freedom we're going to see a gradual erosion of true freedom. Might happen slowly but history shows time and again what can occur in societies where ideology is allowed free reign, whether its Catholic Ireland or Stalinist Russia.

I'm probably going to watch the All Ireland final now to come down after this post. At least with hurling things are a bit more black and white."
So much wrong here it's just not worth trying

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 11840 - 19/01/2021 13:22:45    2328058

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Replying To Rebel2020:  "I am a proud member of the Catholic Church and NOT a victim of any cult. What you're saying equates to Germans not being proud German citizens because of the Holocaust."
Hard to believe someone would actually type that out and click post

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 11840 - 19/01/2021 13:24:55    2328059

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Replying To skillet:  "I gather from your previous posts that you were educated in the fifties, so your experience sounds like a typical example of the times.
A fairly brutal indoctrination without any explanation.

I had a Catholic priest as my religion teacher in secondary school for 5yrs..and the one fantastic aspect of his classes was his ability to engage our sense of Reason. We were forced as Kids to think for ourselves..ideas were argued and discussed and matters of faith were analysed. It was an education in the truest sense of the word.

That's why I find the comments on here describing the Catholic Church as an oppressive Cult really sad, because I know for a lot of people that's their experience, but it was very far from mine.

I had an experience of Catholic Christianity that has defined who I've become today.

Probably part of the reason behind my initial post about the whole 'Woke, offended mentality' that I see more and more in the country is the complete lack of critical thinking behind it.
Everything seems to be through the prism of "rights and being non-Judgemental"
We seem to have swapped one self righteous set of absolutes as defined by stereotypical Catholicism for another, far more insidious one.

This time it's all based around feelings and the avoidance of feeling bad or even worse, offending someone .. Everything is reactionary..the stupidity of the Gresham hotel taking down the statues before Christmas during the whole BLM hysteria is a prime example. That ball of fluff Canadian prime minister rebuking a young woman who used the word 'Mankind' because it was gender specific.

The US Senate where you'd like to think intelligent people operate trying to include the word 'Awoman' instead of Amen, oblivious to the fact that Amen is an aramaic word meaning "So be it" and has nothing to do with gender..

Removing Micheal Collins hat from the national museum because he was shot in the head is another example. It's a denial of history in case it "upsets someone" to see dried blood. The list goes on.
These are harmless enough in comparison to historical abuse and all the associated evils but if you consider the scenarios we're seeing more and more of, there are considerable parallels beginning to play out.

Kids as young as 12 being allowed to "transition" sexuality often without parental permission because it's their 'right'... With no thought to the long term emotional, physical and psychological impact.
This is just another example of opening doors that will be very difficult to close all in the name of a casual accepting of a persons rights as the ultimate objective. The avoidance of any form of suffering,. So we now have an ideology in Ireland and the West in general where everything's relative to how it feels, there are no moral absolutes tolerated...

My fear is we're only at the tip of the iceberg and in the name of rights and freedom we're going to see a gradual erosion of true freedom. Might happen slowly but history shows time and again what can occur in societies where ideology is allowed free reign, whether its Catholic Ireland or Stalinist Russia.

I'm probably going to watch the All Ireland final now to come down after this post. At least with hurling things are a bit more black and white."
That is an exceptional post skillet. You deal with many issues. One is the real freedom to think for yourself and express your sentiments. Inclusivity at the moment entails the obligation to comply with the consensus. Contrary opinions tend not to be tolerated. The appalling "cancel culture" is a cloak of concealment for intolerance and extremism. Extremism by it's very nature needs enemies. It cannot exist without them because of it's very nature. We are seeing increasing extremism in relation to positions espoused by the consensus which currently prevails in this country. We have most certainly exchanged one set of absolutes for another far more insidious set of absolutes. It does revolve around not offending others. Offence now is caused by not accepting the consensus . The reaction can be and very often is vicious. The treatment of JK Rowling is one very clear example of this. It is a form of thought control which thrives on fear of retribution. Development of ideas and ideologies requires diversity and debate. That is how democracy developed. Disagreement is part of life and it is a requirement in a healthy society. Can I thank you for your post skillet. It was thought provoking and worthy of reflection. I'll be back to you on it.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5482 - 19/01/2021 13:30:06    2328062

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I think the general gist of it is that Freedom = adhering to your interpretation of the "laws" written in an old book compiled in the Middle East.

The US Senate "Amen" story is gas, that's a new one to me. "Faith" will make people believe anything I suppose

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 11840 - 19/01/2021 13:30:08    2328063

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Replying To Rebel2020:  "I am a proud member of the Catholic Church and NOT a victim of any cult. What you're saying equates to Germans not being proud German citizens because of the Holocaust."
Count yourself lucky so as there are literally millions of victims of your church and the others

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 11840 - 19/01/2021 13:33:06    2328064

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