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Replying To Breffni40:  "I think the general gist of it is that Freedom = adhering to your interpretation of the "laws" written in an old book compiled in the Middle East.

The US Senate "Amen" story is gas, that's a new one to me. "Faith" will make people believe anything I suppose"
No it's not.. I've absolutely no problem with you disagreeing with me but at least try and disagree with what I wrote, Not what you think I wrote. Maybe read the post again, or not, you're free to choose either way.

skillet (Limerick) - Posts: 839 - 19/01/2021 13:43:31    2328069

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Replying To Greengrass:  "That is an exceptional post skillet. You deal with many issues. One is the real freedom to think for yourself and express your sentiments. Inclusivity at the moment entails the obligation to comply with the consensus. Contrary opinions tend not to be tolerated. The appalling "cancel culture" is a cloak of concealment for intolerance and extremism. Extremism by it's very nature needs enemies. It cannot exist without them because of it's very nature. We are seeing increasing extremism in relation to positions espoused by the consensus which currently prevails in this country. We have most certainly exchanged one set of absolutes for another far more insidious set of absolutes. It does revolve around not offending others. Offence now is caused by not accepting the consensus . The reaction can be and very often is vicious. The treatment of JK Rowling is one very clear example of this. It is a form of thought control which thrives on fear of retribution. Development of ideas and ideologies requires diversity and debate. That is how democracy developed. Disagreement is part of life and it is a requirement in a healthy society. Can I thank you for your post skillet. It was thought provoking and worthy of reflection. I'll be back to you on it."
JK Rowling has the freedom to think for herself and expressed her sentiments on her massive platform. People agreed and people disagreed. It was debated. She was never silenced.

She is entitled to her opinion. Trans people are being murdered and committing suicide at an alarming, shocking rate. JKR gave her opinion on the subject and people disagreed with it. You think she is the victim?

There are many complexities to gender/sexuality etc. I assume strongly religious folk think god created these complexities. If certain complexities are not to your liking then take it up with god and leave these people alone to live their lives, like they do you

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 11840 - 19/01/2021 13:46:00    2328070

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Replying To Greengrass:  "That is an exceptional post skillet. You deal with many issues. One is the real freedom to think for yourself and express your sentiments. Inclusivity at the moment entails the obligation to comply with the consensus. Contrary opinions tend not to be tolerated. The appalling "cancel culture" is a cloak of concealment for intolerance and extremism. Extremism by it's very nature needs enemies. It cannot exist without them because of it's very nature. We are seeing increasing extremism in relation to positions espoused by the consensus which currently prevails in this country. We have most certainly exchanged one set of absolutes for another far more insidious set of absolutes. It does revolve around not offending others. Offence now is caused by not accepting the consensus . The reaction can be and very often is vicious. The treatment of JK Rowling is one very clear example of this. It is a form of thought control which thrives on fear of retribution. Development of ideas and ideologies requires diversity and debate. That is how democracy developed. Disagreement is part of life and it is a requirement in a healthy society. Can I thank you for your post skillet. It was thought provoking and worthy of reflection. I'll be back to you on it."
Thanks, appreciate the sentiment. It's an interesting subject matter that brings up strong opinions.
Good to have the opportunity to discuss it with a bit of maturity.

skillet (Limerick) - Posts: 839 - 19/01/2021 14:01:37    2328074

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Replying To Breffni40:  "JK Rowling has the freedom to think for herself and expressed her sentiments on her massive platform. People agreed and people disagreed. It was debated. She was never silenced.

She is entitled to her opinion. Trans people are being murdered and committing suicide at an alarming, shocking rate. JKR gave her opinion on the subject and people disagreed with it. You think she is the victim?

There are many complexities to gender/sexuality etc. I assume strongly religious folk think god created these complexities. If certain complexities are not to your liking then take it up with god and leave these people alone to live their lives, like they do you"
My, my. A very quick response and a very heated one epitomising perfectly the extremism about which I was talking.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5484 - 19/01/2021 14:03:07    2328075

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It's a very heated topic. If you don't want to discuss it or hear opposing sides then I suppose that's fine. I don't think compassion for marginalised people is extremism personally. It's only one side of the discussion that is bringing the holocaust, trans rights and all sorts into it. Seems like deflection.

I'm sure millionaire JK Rowling, sitting in her mansion, appreciates your empathy towards her plight. I can't imagine the horror of publishing your opinion on a massive platform and not have everyone politely agree with you.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 11840 - 19/01/2021 14:26:19    2328079

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Replying To skillet:  "I gather from your previous posts that you were educated in the fifties, so your experience sounds like a typical example of the times.
A fairly brutal indoctrination without any explanation.

I had a Catholic priest as my religion teacher in secondary school for 5yrs..and the one fantastic aspect of his classes was his ability to engage our sense of Reason. We were forced as Kids to think for ourselves..ideas were argued and discussed and matters of faith were analysed. It was an education in the truest sense of the word.

That's why I find the comments on here describing the Catholic Church as an oppressive Cult really sad, because I know for a lot of people that's their experience, but it was very far from mine.

I had an experience of Catholic Christianity that has defined who I've become today.

Probably part of the reason behind my initial post about the whole 'Woke, offended mentality' that I see more and more in the country is the complete lack of critical thinking behind it.
Everything seems to be through the prism of "rights and being non-Judgemental"
We seem to have swapped one self righteous set of absolutes as defined by stereotypical Catholicism for another, far more insidious one.

This time it's all based around feelings and the avoidance of feeling bad or even worse, offending someone .. Everything is reactionary..the stupidity of the Gresham hotel taking down the statues before Christmas during the whole BLM hysteria is a prime example. That ball of fluff Canadian prime minister rebuking a young woman who used the word 'Mankind' because it was gender specific.

The US Senate where you'd like to think intelligent people operate trying to include the word 'Awoman' instead of Amen, oblivious to the fact that Amen is an aramaic word meaning "So be it" and has nothing to do with gender..

Removing Micheal Collins hat from the national museum because he was shot in the head is another example. It's a denial of history in case it "upsets someone" to see dried blood. The list goes on.
These are harmless enough in comparison to historical abuse and all the associated evils but if you consider the scenarios we're seeing more and more of, there are considerable parallels beginning to play out.

Kids as young as 12 being allowed to "transition" sexuality often without parental permission because it's their 'right'... With no thought to the long term emotional, physical and psychological impact.
This is just another example of opening doors that will be very difficult to close all in the name of a casual accepting of a persons rights as the ultimate objective. The avoidance of any form of suffering,. So we now have an ideology in Ireland and the West in general where everything's relative to how it feels, there are no moral absolutes tolerated...

My fear is we're only at the tip of the iceberg and in the name of rights and freedom we're going to see a gradual erosion of true freedom. Might happen slowly but history shows time and again what can occur in societies where ideology is allowed free reign, whether its Catholic Ireland or Stalinist Russia.

I'm probably going to watch the All Ireland final now to come down after this post. At least with hurling things are a bit more black and white."
I accept your belief but you have to ask where did you get it...inherited no doubt.What other religions/belief systems were you exposed to from a very young age that might have helped you make a choice.As I see it people did not make their own choice,they had no say in the matter and believe what they were indoctrinated with.Can anyone say that if they were indoctrinated with a different religion/belief system that they would not become indoctrinated and "believe" in that religion.People,by and large,are not members of a religion/cult by choice...rather by indoctrination.

ONdeDITCH (Limerick) - Posts: 755 - 19/01/2021 14:52:25    2328083

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Replying To Greengrass:  "That is an exceptional post skillet. You deal with many issues. One is the real freedom to think for yourself and express your sentiments. Inclusivity at the moment entails the obligation to comply with the consensus. Contrary opinions tend not to be tolerated. The appalling "cancel culture" is a cloak of concealment for intolerance and extremism. Extremism by it's very nature needs enemies. It cannot exist without them because of it's very nature. We are seeing increasing extremism in relation to positions espoused by the consensus which currently prevails in this country. We have most certainly exchanged one set of absolutes for another far more insidious set of absolutes. It does revolve around not offending others. Offence now is caused by not accepting the consensus . The reaction can be and very often is vicious. The treatment of JK Rowling is one very clear example of this. It is a form of thought control which thrives on fear of retribution. Development of ideas and ideologies requires diversity and debate. That is how democracy developed. Disagreement is part of life and it is a requirement in a healthy society. Can I thank you for your post skillet. It was thought provoking and worthy of reflection. I'll be back to you on it."
Can anyone say that a person has the ability to think for themselves after a lifetime of indoctrination since being a child and following the reasonings and teachings of this cult and having lost the ability to see what is /was wrong with this indoctrination and practice.People with this so called "faith" have their thoughts processes governed by their belief in the cult.The paradigm has been set for them and they think within this paradigm,its a very successful way of getting commitment within a cult.

ONdeDITCH (Limerick) - Posts: 755 - 19/01/2021 15:03:34    2328084

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Quick question for the people worried about "cancel culture". What, if anything, is deserving of cancelling? Where would you put the bar for offensive/illegal/immoral opinions/actions?

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 11840 - 19/01/2021 15:14:30    2328086

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Replying To ONdeDITCH:  "I accept your belief but you have to ask where did you get it...inherited no doubt.What other religions/belief systems were you exposed to from a very young age that might have helped you make a choice.As I see it people did not make their own choice,they had no say in the matter and believe what they were indoctrinated with.Can anyone say that if they were indoctrinated with a different religion/belief system that they would not become indoctrinated and "believe" in that religion.People,by and large,are not members of a religion/cult by choice...rather by indoctrination."
I can't agree. People are capable of thinking for themselves. This capability enables them to choose. Many people choose to reject religion. Others choose to embrace it. That is their choice. Sadly in this country the choices of people who have embraced religion tends to be sneered at.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5484 - 19/01/2021 15:32:24    2328088

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Replying To Greengrass:  "I can't agree. People are capable of thinking for themselves. This capability enables them to choose. Many people choose to reject religion. Others choose to embrace it. That is their choice. Sadly in this country the choices of people who have embraced religion tends to be sneered at."
* Those that choose Catholicism


Those that choose not to still have it forced on them in every facet of Irish society

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 11840 - 19/01/2021 15:40:41    2328089

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Replying To Breffni40:  "It's a very heated topic. If you don't want to discuss it or hear opposing sides then I suppose that's fine. I don't think compassion for marginalised people is extremism personally. It's only one side of the discussion that is bringing the holocaust, trans rights and all sorts into it. Seems like deflection.

I'm sure millionaire JK Rowling, sitting in her mansion, appreciates your empathy towards her plight. I can't imagine the horror of publishing your opinion on a massive platform and not have everyone politely agree with you."
I never said I didn't want to discuss it. Nor did I say I didn't want to hear the arguments of both sides. I don't know why you think I don't have compassion for transgender people. I never at any stage said I don't have compassion for transgender people. A very close friend of mine has a child who is transgender. I am more than familiar with transgenderism. Your post assumed a great deal, and was highly judgemental. I know well how emotive an issue transgenderism is . I had many a long discussion with my friend. The point that is consistently being made to you is that people with a viewpoint that is different from the consensus very often find themselves the subject of nasty and at times vicious opprobrium from what is now an orthodoxy that considers itself to be tolerant. You epitomise the individual who is so convinced of the veracity of their opinions and beliefs that they cannot countenance what appear to be contrary points of view without becoming heated, emotive and intolerant. Your sneering at the vicious backlash to which JK Rowling was subjected substantiates what I am saying.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5484 - 19/01/2021 15:44:08    2328092

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Can I ask what your friend and their child thought of JK Rowlings opinion?

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 11840 - 19/01/2021 15:56:14    2328095

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Replying To ONdeDITCH:  "I accept your belief but you have to ask where did you get it...inherited no doubt.What other religions/belief systems were you exposed to from a very young age that might have helped you make a choice.As I see it people did not make their own choice,they had no say in the matter and believe what they were indoctrinated with.Can anyone say that if they were indoctrinated with a different religion/belief system that they would not become indoctrinated and "believe" in that religion.People,by and large,are not members of a religion/cult by choice...rather by indoctrination."
My belief system has emerged over years of critical thinking. I wasn't indoctrinated, but I was challenged. That was my original point.. I think our early experiences leave their mark on us in multiples of ways.
For example why do some of us on here follow hurling over football and vice versa as opposed to Soccer. Culture, Geography, background etc ,
why do you and I support Limerick hurling as opposed to Cork hurling .. Our background determined a lot of who we become as adults.

Yours unfortunately seems to have been particularly horrible when you were young resulting in your animosity towards Catholicism.
Its too easy to dismiss someone with a Christian mindset as being a product of a Cult without a sense of the wider parameters of their belief system.

For years I didn't really believe in anything but I read a lot and tried to make sense of things as best I could.
I think the quote from CS Lewis that 'Jesus was who he said he was or else he was a lunatic' really struck a cord and got me thinking in depth a few years ago.
In other words was Jesus the son of God or a nut job!?
Do I dismiss Christianity or accept that there's something really profound in it..that's when I began to see the real depth of a religious mindset. The fact that the discovery of the big bang theory was by a Jesuit priest got me interested also in the overlap between religion and science.

I'm only responding to you with respect by the way. I fully appreciate where you're coming from but I'm of the opinion that it's too easy these days to dismantle an entire way of thinking and belief that's come down through the centuries flippantly, especially using the abuse of power in the Irish Church over the last 100 years as a benchmark for an entire cultural experience of Faith over centuries ..
That's my fear in essence about the way I see society going, things are reactionary, overly emotional and increasingly lopsided.

Being compassionate is often used these days as a smokescreen for censorship of thought.

skillet (Limerick) - Posts: 839 - 19/01/2021 15:59:26    2328096

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Replying To Breffni40:  "Can I ask what your friend and their child thought of JK Rowlings opinion?"
I didn't speak to his child Breffni. My friend felt that her remarks were ill judged. He thought the reaction was unsettling and undeserved.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5484 - 19/01/2021 16:07:11    2328098

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Replying To Greengrass:  "I didn't speak to his child Breffni. My friend felt that her remarks were ill judged. He thought the reaction was unsettling and undeserved."
Theres not enough live and let live in the world. Religions are a reaction to the animal instinct to fear death in some way or another.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 2423 - 19/01/2021 16:37:17    2328104

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Well, what a very wide-ranging and mostly civilised thread we have going here. Well done to the posters involved.

My take, broadly speaking, is that recent technological innovations have not led to a flowering of learning or respectful debate, as many would have hoped. The human brain is not able to process the overwhelming bulk of multimedia messages thrown at it every day. This has led to a coarsening and polarisation of public discourse, whereby many people adopt very strong and inflexible positions on issues almost as a reflex. Circumspection, mitigation and nuance alas seem to have gone completely out the window for many people now, hot takes being the order of the day.

This was brought home to me following the breaking a major news story in Dublin recently, whereby several public figures (Members of the Oireachtas and other politicians, members of national boards, journalists) seemed to race out of the traps in giving their hot takes, before any of the facts of the case had been established. This was matched by many lay people/social media commentators adopting a Pavlovian dog response to the event, jumping on it as a confirmation of everything they believe.

Earlier in the thread, the question arose as to whether "the woke crowd" have as much power as the Catholic Church back in the day. Clearly they do not, given the excesses/human rights abuses of the former. However, one does not have to buy-into religious dogma to be very worried by developments in public discourse in Ireland and across the Western World generally.

For starters, Ireland has a long history of censorship, so I'm not sure that I'd trust Official Ireland to keep me fully informed of what's going on outside of my locality. Pretty much every major writer of the twentieth century was banned here, and Irish journalists miraculously (no pun intended) managed to miss decades and decades of human rights abuses by the hierarchy. Censorship was also imposed during the Second World War and on the coverage of events in Northern Ireland during the Troubles.

Ireland does not have a good record of investigative journalism, to put it mildly.

And while the alt-right may well attract every bigot and crazy person under the sun, like a stopped clock, they can be occasionally correct. They are correct in stating that the likes of RTÉ, INM and the Irish Times act as the gate-keepers of public discourse, and are not above ignoring what doesn't suit their editorial lines.

For instance, events in West Dublin recently, in which people were forced to cower in a locked down supermarket due to rioting and threats, were described as "peaceful protests". Really? Anyone who saw the footage couldn't help but conclude the opposite.

It seems to me that the intersectional crowd, which seems to make up a growing proportion of those on the Left these days , privilege personal experience and critical race theory in particular over facts, data, and logic. And this is used to shut down debate and cancel people who disagree with them.

On the other side, we have ethno-nationalists who have been clearly cooking up propaganda/lies/ and are looking to incite people against minorities. Many of these people are also anti-vaxxers, which is a dangerous ideology in the current circumstances.

This is a very dangerous cocktail, which Ireland has largely avoided up til now. The importation of American style identity politics not been a positive development anywhere, but in the US, one can understand the legitimate grievances of minority groups there and why it developed. There is no such context in Ireland, and yet I see people equating racism in the two countries as if they are one and the same.

IMO this needs to be nipped in the bud now, otherwise we will see issues in Ireland that have arisen in almost every other Western European country. A balkanisation of Ireland (further balkanisation?) is the last thing we need.

Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 1883 - 19/01/2021 16:40:44    2328105

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Replying To skillet:  "My belief system has emerged over years of critical thinking. I wasn't indoctrinated, but I was challenged. That was my original point.. I think our early experiences leave their mark on us in multiples of ways.
For example why do some of us on here follow hurling over football and vice versa as opposed to Soccer. Culture, Geography, background etc ,
why do you and I support Limerick hurling as opposed to Cork hurling .. Our background determined a lot of who we become as adults.

Yours unfortunately seems to have been particularly horrible when you were young resulting in your animosity towards Catholicism.
Its too easy to dismiss someone with a Christian mindset as being a product of a Cult without a sense of the wider parameters of their belief system.

For years I didn't really believe in anything but I read a lot and tried to make sense of things as best I could.
I think the quote from CS Lewis that 'Jesus was who he said he was or else he was a lunatic' really struck a cord and got me thinking in depth a few years ago.
In other words was Jesus the son of God or a nut job!?
Do I dismiss Christianity or accept that there's something really profound in it..that's when I began to see the real depth of a religious mindset. The fact that the discovery of the big bang theory was by a Jesuit priest got me interested also in the overlap between religion and science.

I'm only responding to you with respect by the way. I fully appreciate where you're coming from but I'm of the opinion that it's too easy these days to dismantle an entire way of thinking and belief that's come down through the centuries flippantly, especially using the abuse of power in the Irish Church over the last 100 years as a benchmark for an entire cultural experience of Faith over centuries ..
That's my fear in essence about the way I see society going, things are reactionary, overly emotional and increasingly lopsided.

Being compassionate is often used these days as a smokescreen for censorship of thought."
Abuse of power is a very flippant way of putting it, like they got their cousin a job in the bank or something

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 11840 - 19/01/2021 16:48:34    2328107

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Replying To Breffni40:  "* Those that choose Catholicism


Those that choose not to still have it forced on them in every facet of Irish society"
I did not know they were forcing religion on the Cavan people- very sorry to hear that!. You obviously do not listen to RTE television or the radio. I did not know Northern sound carried on like that. What are they now forcing you do do?- climb Croke Patrick. Anyway I wish you a Happy New Year and to all readers and the management /employees of the Hogan Stand-keep up the good work.

browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2254 - 19/01/2021 16:52:17    2328109

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Absolute joke the JK thing, ffs

realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8127 - 19/01/2021 16:56:46    2328110

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Replying To skillet:  "I gather from your previous posts that you were educated in the fifties, so your experience sounds like a typical example of the times.
A fairly brutal indoctrination without any explanation.

I had a Catholic priest as my religion teacher in secondary school for 5yrs..and the one fantastic aspect of his classes was his ability to engage our sense of Reason. We were forced as Kids to think for ourselves..ideas were argued and discussed and matters of faith were analysed. It was an education in the truest sense of the word.

That's why I find the comments on here describing the Catholic Church as an oppressive Cult really sad, because I know for a lot of people that's their experience, but it was very far from mine.

I had an experience of Catholic Christianity that has defined who I've become today.

Probably part of the reason behind my initial post about the whole 'Woke, offended mentality' that I see more and more in the country is the complete lack of critical thinking behind it.
Everything seems to be through the prism of "rights and being non-Judgemental"
We seem to have swapped one self righteous set of absolutes as defined by stereotypical Catholicism for another, far more insidious one.

This time it's all based around feelings and the avoidance of feeling bad or even worse, offending someone .. Everything is reactionary..the stupidity of the Gresham hotel taking down the statues before Christmas during the whole BLM hysteria is a prime example. That ball of fluff Canadian prime minister rebuking a young woman who used the word 'Mankind' because it was gender specific.

The US Senate where you'd like to think intelligent people operate trying to include the word 'Awoman' instead of Amen, oblivious to the fact that Amen is an aramaic word meaning "So be it" and has nothing to do with gender..

Removing Micheal Collins hat from the national museum because he was shot in the head is another example. It's a denial of history in case it "upsets someone" to see dried blood. The list goes on.
These are harmless enough in comparison to historical abuse and all the associated evils but if you consider the scenarios we're seeing more and more of, there are considerable parallels beginning to play out.

Kids as young as 12 being allowed to "transition" sexuality often without parental permission because it's their 'right'... With no thought to the long term emotional, physical and psychological impact.
This is just another example of opening doors that will be very difficult to close all in the name of a casual accepting of a persons rights as the ultimate objective. The avoidance of any form of suffering,. So we now have an ideology in Ireland and the West in general where everything's relative to how it feels, there are no moral absolutes tolerated...

My fear is we're only at the tip of the iceberg and in the name of rights and freedom we're going to see a gradual erosion of true freedom. Might happen slowly but history shows time and again what can occur in societies where ideology is allowed free reign, whether its Catholic Ireland or Stalinist Russia.

I'm probably going to watch the All Ireland final now to come down after this post. At least with hurling things are a bit more black and white."
Skillet, -Truly your post was par excellent.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2378 - 19/01/2021 17:34:19    2328113

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