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Tradition

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Replying To browncows:  "I did not know they were forcing religion on the Cavan people- very sorry to hear that!. You obviously do not listen to RTE television or the radio. I did not know Northern sound carried on like that. What are they now forcing you do do?- climb Croke Patrick. Anyway I wish you a Happy New Year and to all readers and the management /employees of the Hogan Stand-keep up the good work."
This was a very worthwhile contribution, thanks for taking the time

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 11840 - 19/01/2021 18:06:29    2328120

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Replying To MesAmis:  "Firstly I don't look at this as a row but as an exchange of ideas.

I appreciate where you are coming from and this is an example of what other posters failed to do earlier in the thread. You are backing up your opinion rather than just throwing out clichéd labels, however I do disagree with a number of your points.

Political parties that were once anti-abortion did indeed change their stance, they changed it because public opinion had changed over the years. Political parties follow public opinion they very rarely shape it. I think the Savita case was a driver to get the campaign restarted but I do believe they most people had their minds made up over the years, like I mean everyone knows women that went to England over the years. Also I think you're misinformed about Savita's family also, her father went as far as to call for the new law to be named in her honour.

There has been a lot of complaints by the No side about venom and contempt etc etc. However, and I don't mean this to sound patronising at all, but this was a contentious, emotive, adult debate. Like I've said earlier, everyone is entitled to air their view but equally everyone else is completely entitled to attack that view. Everyone has to accept this rather than hiding behind the complaints of "we're being shouted down". They weren't being shouted down they were merely failing to defend their position adequately imo.

I'm not sure if 'neo-Liberal wokeism' is a threat at all to be honest because I like the vast majority of people don't know what it even means. Everyone in Ireland is more free than ever to say and think what they want, but as always, you aren't free to do that and not have to justify your thoughts.

I think social media and the traditional media has polarised people's views on these issues as well. Those on the extreme of both sides are heard the most and are the furthest apart, however the 99% of people are much closer to the middle and each other in my view."
I'm glad you seen that I was only trying to engage in a civil discussion with yourself to exchange views and it's refreshing to get a different perspective from someone else without cheap insults. I want reply to some of your points

Yes there was a sizeable amount of people who looked for an abortion referendum but i feel our major political parties didn't changed their stand on abortion because of public opinion, they changed it because of outside pressure from organisations like the UN and wealthy individuals and companies who saw an opportunity to increase their wealth, irish governments only ever care about public opinion close to election times. I'll use the example of the EU treaty referendums (Amsterdam,Nice and Lisbon) public opinion was against them did they back the Irish public when they voted no on all 3, no they did not and they used fear factor to manipulate the voters to change their mind, and the Irish public was made vote again on them until the government got the results they wanted and Lisbon was especially deceitful given the fear factor around it given by the fianna fail government at the time saying how jobs would be lost and the economic damage to country it would do if the Lisbon treaty didn't get voted in and we all saw the difference it made absolutely none the country went to **** anyway.

On neo-liberal wokeism/political correctness you say you don't know what it is I'll tell you some of where I feel it is a threat in Irish society.
- As someone who has gone to school in Rathkeale and has seen the town deteriorate the way it has in the last 20/25 years. I had school friends whos families were intimidated into selling their homes and seening business bought and their buildings left go derelict, seening dangerous antics and anti-social behaviour increase rapidly every Christmas time. If you speak out about and highlight this according to the woke left your being discriminatory and you don't understand 'culture'.
- A rational discussion about immigration can't be had in this country without cheap labels being thrown at people because you can't rise legitimate concerns about quality of life, services and security because according to the woke left whoever doesn't embrace mass immigration is racist.
- The woke will use science in a religion debate but tell them basic biology tells us there is only 2 genders and someones gender is determined by their biology they will tell you, you are a facist. Now I will give respect to someone who has had a trans-op and refer to them as Sir/madam whichever it is but what I won't entertain is some Hollywood actor or pop star who's career has taken a downturn deciding some morning they are some non-binary
dolphin to get themselves some notice, no they are not heros they are clowns. And no I don't want my young lad learning that ideology in school.

I could write more but I think I have made my point clear which is when confronted with any facts or truths that go against their ideology they try character assassination on someone with labels like bigot and racist to kill discussion and debate. Now I respect proper liberalism even though I would probably be classed as a conversative by society, but I would have very good time for liberals analyst like Bill Maher, Sam Harris and the late Christopher Hitchens, but there is a big difference between their liberalism and the woke bs that's out there now.

Now for those who say this is a sports website ye are right I'm sorry for going too heavy on the political spectrum I think the lack of sport last summer got people talking about different subjects on this website.

DUALSUPPORT (Limerick) - Posts: 966 - 19/01/2021 19:36:23    2328129

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Replying To skillet:  "My belief system has emerged over years of critical thinking. I wasn't indoctrinated, but I was challenged. That was my original point.. I think our early experiences leave their mark on us in multiples of ways.
For example why do some of us on here follow hurling over football and vice versa as opposed to Soccer. Culture, Geography, background etc ,
why do you and I support Limerick hurling as opposed to Cork hurling .. Our background determined a lot of who we become as adults.

Yours unfortunately seems to have been particularly horrible when you were young resulting in your animosity towards Catholicism.
Its too easy to dismiss someone with a Christian mindset as being a product of a Cult without a sense of the wider parameters of their belief system.

For years I didn't really believe in anything but I read a lot and tried to make sense of things as best I could.
I think the quote from CS Lewis that 'Jesus was who he said he was or else he was a lunatic' really struck a cord and got me thinking in depth a few years ago.
In other words was Jesus the son of God or a nut job!?
Do I dismiss Christianity or accept that there's something really profound in it..that's when I began to see the real depth of a religious mindset. The fact that the discovery of the big bang theory was by a Jesuit priest got me interested also in the overlap between religion and science.

I'm only responding to you with respect by the way. I fully appreciate where you're coming from but I'm of the opinion that it's too easy these days to dismantle an entire way of thinking and belief that's come down through the centuries flippantly, especially using the abuse of power in the Irish Church over the last 100 years as a benchmark for an entire cultural experience of Faith over centuries ..
That's my fear in essence about the way I see society going, things are reactionary, overly emotional and increasingly lopsided.

Being compassionate is often used these days as a smokescreen for censorship of thought."
My experience was no different to anyone else that was exposed to Catholic indoctrination from a child.
Jesus Christ wasn't a Catholic and I dare say if he was preaching his version of socialism today the right wing Catholics would be first in the que to condemn his "wokeism".
The Catholic Church supported fascism in Spain,the Irish Bishops said mass for those volunteers heading to Spain to support General Franco in undermining the lawfully and democratically elected government,Jesus Christ would never have supported Franco.
Its difficult and unpalatable to think that anyone that knew this would voluntarily become a member of the Catholic Church not to mention the litany of wrong doings by this same Church that taught us that they had a monopoly on the correctness of religious belief.The deep-seated indoctrination had to be a huge factor,not independent thought.
I know that its wrong to have little innocent children exposed to this doctrine.Leave kids alone in our schools and not have their innocence tainted by this doctrine.
Another thing the Catholic Church have done, and I condemn it ,is sending missionarys to places like Africa indoctrinating the natives with the "superior" beliefs of the Catholic Church.This they did while at the same time committing terrible atrocities against the very same people they had indoctrinated here in Ireland.You couldn't make it up!

ONdeDITCH (Limerick) - Posts: 755 - 19/01/2021 19:46:20    2328130

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Replying To ONdeDITCH:  "My experience was no different to anyone else that was exposed to Catholic indoctrination from a child.
Jesus Christ wasn't a Catholic and I dare say if he was preaching his version of socialism today the right wing Catholics would be first in the que to condemn his "wokeism".
The Catholic Church supported fascism in Spain,the Irish Bishops said mass for those volunteers heading to Spain to support General Franco in undermining the lawfully and democratically elected government,Jesus Christ would never have supported Franco.
Its difficult and unpalatable to think that anyone that knew this would voluntarily become a member of the Catholic Church not to mention the litany of wrong doings by this same Church that taught us that they had a monopoly on the correctness of religious belief.The deep-seated indoctrination had to be a huge factor,not independent thought.
I know that its wrong to have little innocent children exposed to this doctrine.Leave kids alone in our schools and not have their innocence tainted by this doctrine.
Another thing the Catholic Church have done, and I condemn it ,is sending missionarys to places like Africa indoctrinating the natives with the "superior" beliefs of the Catholic Church.This they did while at the same time committing terrible atrocities against the very same people they had indoctrinated here in Ireland.You couldn't make it up!"
Other religions have sent missionaries to Africa, and other continents, are they imposing a superior system on the native populations, or is it just the Catholic Church who are wrong.?

MicktheMiller (Offaly) - Posts: 320 - 19/01/2021 21:16:42    2328147

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Replying To DUALSUPPORT:  "I'm glad you seen that I was only trying to engage in a civil discussion with yourself to exchange views and it's refreshing to get a different perspective from someone else without cheap insults. I want reply to some of your points

Yes there was a sizeable amount of people who looked for an abortion referendum but i feel our major political parties didn't changed their stand on abortion because of public opinion, they changed it because of outside pressure from organisations like the UN and wealthy individuals and companies who saw an opportunity to increase their wealth, irish governments only ever care about public opinion close to election times. I'll use the example of the EU treaty referendums (Amsterdam,Nice and Lisbon) public opinion was against them did they back the Irish public when they voted no on all 3, no they did not and they used fear factor to manipulate the voters to change their mind, and the Irish public was made vote again on them until the government got the results they wanted and Lisbon was especially deceitful given the fear factor around it given by the fianna fail government at the time saying how jobs would be lost and the economic damage to country it would do if the Lisbon treaty didn't get voted in and we all saw the difference it made absolutely none the country went to **** anyway.

On neo-liberal wokeism/political correctness you say you don't know what it is I'll tell you some of where I feel it is a threat in Irish society.
- As someone who has gone to school in Rathkeale and has seen the town deteriorate the way it has in the last 20/25 years. I had school friends whos families were intimidated into selling their homes and seening business bought and their buildings left go derelict, seening dangerous antics and anti-social behaviour increase rapidly every Christmas time. If you speak out about and highlight this according to the woke left your being discriminatory and you don't understand 'culture'.
- A rational discussion about immigration can't be had in this country without cheap labels being thrown at people because you can't rise legitimate concerns about quality of life, services and security because according to the woke left whoever doesn't embrace mass immigration is racist.
- The woke will use science in a religion debate but tell them basic biology tells us there is only 2 genders and someones gender is determined by their biology they will tell you, you are a facist. Now I will give respect to someone who has had a trans-op and refer to them as Sir/madam whichever it is but what I won't entertain is some Hollywood actor or pop star who's career has taken a downturn deciding some morning they are some non-binary
dolphin to get themselves some notice, no they are not heros they are clowns. And no I don't want my young lad learning that ideology in school.

I could write more but I think I have made my point clear which is when confronted with any facts or truths that go against their ideology they try character assassination on someone with labels like bigot and racist to kill discussion and debate. Now I respect proper liberalism even though I would probably be classed as a conversative by society, but I would have very good time for liberals analyst like Bill Maher, Sam Harris and the late Christopher Hitchens, but there is a big difference between their liberalism and the woke bs that's out there now.

Now for those who say this is a sports website ye are right I'm sorry for going too heavy on the political spectrum I think the lack of sport last summer got people talking about different subjects on this website."
Good post.

I would have considered myself left leaning and liberal most of my life until recent years. This changed when I found myself removed from the club and labelled racist for having the audacity to criticise certain aspects of islamic doctrine and the treatment of women. I doubted myself and the values I had always held, so I went away and thought about it.

Now it's my opinion that the woke brigade, while meaning well in most cases, are really just hypocrites. They stand up for the rights of oppressed people in countries they've never been and attack the values of the country they do live in, all day long, but mention one idea that doesn't fit their narrative and you become the enemy and must be shouted down. They rarely want to even discuss things or hear another perspective.

E.G. Some Feminists insist that the western world is a patriarchal rape culture. Try explaining that there are other countries/cultures where a girl that refuses an arranged marriage will be murdered by the men in her own family for dishonour and suddenly you are a racist. No further discussion.

It bothers me because the universities are rife with this thinking now and frankly people who aren't willing to hear new ideas have no business attending one. These will be the leaders of tomorrow.

Now, that being said I don't use the social media platforms at all so I'm not hugely affected by this anymore. I do expect woke SJW influence to continue to grow and who knows where it will end, but overall to me the catholic church has evidently done much more long term psychological harm in Ireland, even though it's influence is (thankfully) declining today.

Suas Sios (None) - Posts: 1475 - 19/01/2021 21:26:24    2328148

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Replying To MicktheMiller:  "Other religions have sent missionaries to Africa, and other continents, are they imposing a superior system on the native populations, or is it just the Catholic Church who are wrong.?"
I'm against any imposition of beliefs,because there was more than one church at it that didn't make it right as you seem to be condoning.

ONdeDITCH (Limerick) - Posts: 755 - 19/01/2021 22:05:23    2328152

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Replying To ONdeDITCH:  "My experience was no different to anyone else that was exposed to Catholic indoctrination from a child.
Jesus Christ wasn't a Catholic and I dare say if he was preaching his version of socialism today the right wing Catholics would be first in the que to condemn his "wokeism".
The Catholic Church supported fascism in Spain,the Irish Bishops said mass for those volunteers heading to Spain to support General Franco in undermining the lawfully and democratically elected government,Jesus Christ would never have supported Franco.
Its difficult and unpalatable to think that anyone that knew this would voluntarily become a member of the Catholic Church not to mention the litany of wrong doings by this same Church that taught us that they had a monopoly on the correctness of religious belief.The deep-seated indoctrination had to be a huge factor,not independent thought.
I know that its wrong to have little innocent children exposed to this doctrine.Leave kids alone in our schools and not have their innocence tainted by this doctrine.
Another thing the Catholic Church have done, and I condemn it ,is sending missionarys to places like Africa indoctrinating the natives with the "superior" beliefs of the Catholic Church.This they did while at the same time committing terrible atrocities against the very same people they had indoctrinated here in Ireland.You couldn't make it up!"
Just to point out that over 1000 priests were murdered in Spain in the period 1931 to 1934 two years before Franco took power. The government in power during this time was a left wing government.

tireoghainabu (Tyrone) - Posts: 138 - 19/01/2021 23:36:10    2328158

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I'm of the belief that not every argument deserves airtime.

Ideas have to earn the right to be discussed and debated.

Some debates have already been settled and are not worth having.

Slavery is wrong for example is a moral absolute.

Society needs some moral absolutes. There are both sides to a lot of debates but not every debate.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3448 - 20/01/2021 03:57:22    2328164

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PC Gone Mad

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Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 11840 - 20/01/2021 10:46:31    2328175

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I'm of the belief that not every argument deserves airtime.

Ideas have to earn the right to be discussed and debated.

Some debates have already been settled and are not worth having.

Slavery is wrong for example is a moral absolute.

Society needs some moral absolutes. There are both sides to a lot of debates but not every debate."
Who ended slavery by the way, devout christians or the woke left wing brigade?

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 11840 - 20/01/2021 10:57:28    2328177

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I'm of the belief that not every argument deserves airtime.

Ideas have to earn the right to be discussed and debated.

Some debates have already been settled and are not worth having.

Slavery is wrong for example is a moral absolute.

Society needs some moral absolutes. There are both sides to a lot of debates but not every debate."
There are some questions upon which practically the entirety of society agree, but I would suggest that these are relatively few. Off the top of my head, I would say the general public condemns slavery, murder, genocide and child abuse unequivocally and without exception. Eugenics maybe also?

I would personally add doxxing to the list, as it is very close to inciting people to violence in many cases.

After that, I believe there are a variety of views and divisions among the public on pretty much any issue (not that every view is equally well-founded or evidence-based). So, who gets to decide what is up for debate and what isn't?

The establishment media has done so until relatively recently. Unfortunately, I believe a lot of people working in that sector have become conditioned not to question things/ include stories that don't fit into their overall narrative, especially when it comes to sensitive issues which might have a racial component. Rotherham was a major example of this across the water.

Many people have lost confidence in the traditional media channels as a result, turning to social media platforms such as Twitter, Facebook etc., which have been wildly unregulated until recently (Facebook remains a zoo, while Twitter have at least started to put some health warnings on spurious claims). Unfortunately, the algorithm-based nature of this new media tends to isolate people into echo chambers and is suspectible to fakery in ways that old media wasn't.

I suspect that a heavy "gate-keeping" of the issues we can and cannot discuss in traditional media will result in a situation where groups with unpalatable views will recede to darker and darker corners of the Internet (this has probably already happened, if we consider events like the rise of Incel-related murders, Christchurch in New Zealand, the Capitol storming etc.). If one's position is heinous, I still believe that allowing a challenge in a moderated environment is infinitely better than allowing these thoughts to fester unchallenged in a sub-reddit somewhere.

Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 1883 - 20/01/2021 11:51:49    2328187

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I reluctantly posted once here in response to the "Tradition" thread, in hind sight it was against my better judgement, so for that reason I want to apologies to whom it concerns.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2377 - 20/01/2021 11:58:49    2328189

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Replying To tireoghainabu:  "Just to point out that over 1000 priests were murdered in Spain in the period 1931 to 1934 two years before Franco took power. The government in power during this time was a left wing government."
Priests took the side of Franco...the right wing establishment of money and power,some were actively involved in the Civil War and some claimed to have killed several thousand opponents of Franco.The minority of priests who spoke out against Franco were beheaded to the applause of pro Franco priests.
Sure who would voluntarily join such a cult/religion,its no wonder members had to be coerced/indoctrinated from childhood.The wrondoings of the Catholic Church are a stain on civilization and humanity.

ONdeDITCH (Limerick) - Posts: 755 - 20/01/2021 12:50:30    2328198

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Replying To ONdeDITCH:  "Priests took the side of Franco...the right wing establishment of money and power,some were actively involved in the Civil War and some claimed to have killed several thousand opponents of Franco.The minority of priests who spoke out against Franco were beheaded to the applause of pro Franco priests.
Sure who would voluntarily join such a cult/religion,its no wonder members had to be coerced/indoctrinated from childhood.The wrondoings of the Catholic Church are a stain on civilization and humanity."
It's not a cult, just ask the supreme being in his golden palace in the vatican, the lavish state he presides over.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 11840 - 20/01/2021 13:02:45    2328200

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Replying To ONdeDITCH:  "Priests took the side of Franco...the right wing establishment of money and power,some were actively involved in the Civil War and some claimed to have killed several thousand opponents of Franco.The minority of priests who spoke out against Franco were beheaded to the applause of pro Franco priests.
Sure who would voluntarily join such a cult/religion,its no wonder members had to be coerced/indoctrinated from childhood.The wrondoings of the Catholic Church are a stain on civilization and humanity."
You don't get the gist of my post at all. Over 1000 priests were murdeted in Spain before the civil war even started when Franco was still an unknown figure in Spain. Franco was evil in the extreme but a bit of context doesn't sit well with you.

tireoghainabu (Tyrone) - Posts: 138 - 20/01/2021 13:06:26    2328201

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Replying To Breffni40:  "It's not a cult, just ask the supreme being in his golden palace in the vatican, the lavish state he presides over."
Your bitterness, contempt and intolerance is palpable.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5482 - 20/01/2021 14:10:55    2328210

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Replying To tireoghainabu:  "You don't get the gist of my post at all. Over 1000 priests were murdeted in Spain before the civil war even started when Franco was still an unknown figure in Spain. Franco was evil in the extreme but a bit of context doesn't sit well with you."
The devout Catholic Franco and the Catholic Church establishment he was aided and abetted by committed horrible crimes against humanity.....and all done in the name of Jesus Christ, the Catholic Church really usurped that mans name.
Sure you would have to be proud to be a member of this unforgiving and intolerant organization.....I jest.....This organization brought shame on Ireland,I really am ashamed of what Irishmen did supporting Franco...such a callous man.The Cathilic church and other fascist organizations and political leaders in Europe banded together to bring down a lawfully and democratically elected government because that government did not subscribe to the ideals of the Catholic Church...far right totalitarian and dictatorial...they were automatic bedfellows for Franco.
Mankind has made enormous strides forward despite religious beliefs and in Ireland in spite of the authoritarian and humanity lacking Catholic Church.

Inerestingly there seems to be no good reason to be a member of the Catholic Church other than it was inherited and indoctrinated.....well none espoused on this thread anyway....says it all really!

ONdeDITCH (Limerick) - Posts: 755 - 20/01/2021 15:21:37    2328224

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Replying To Greengrass:  "Your bitterness, contempt and intolerance is palpable."
Well the bitterness and contempt is not just palpable, it's justified, reasonable and logical.

I know myself and I know I'm not intolerant.

I've not said anything that isn't true.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 11840 - 20/01/2021 15:38:30    2328227

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Your knowledge of the Spanish Covil War is very limited, I suggest you read Hugh Thomas's masterpiece " The Spanish Civil War". The savagery on both sides was beyond description ,

tireoghainabu (Tyrone) - Posts: 138 - 20/01/2021 15:58:43    2328230

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Replying To Gleebo:  "There are some questions upon which practically the entirety of society agree, but I would suggest that these are relatively few. Off the top of my head, I would say the general public condemns slavery, murder, genocide and child abuse unequivocally and without exception. Eugenics maybe also?

I would personally add doxxing to the list, as it is very close to inciting people to violence in many cases.

After that, I believe there are a variety of views and divisions among the public on pretty much any issue (not that every view is equally well-founded or evidence-based). So, who gets to decide what is up for debate and what isn't?

The establishment media has done so until relatively recently. Unfortunately, I believe a lot of people working in that sector have become conditioned not to question things/ include stories that don't fit into their overall narrative, especially when it comes to sensitive issues which might have a racial component. Rotherham was a major example of this across the water.

Many people have lost confidence in the traditional media channels as a result, turning to social media platforms such as Twitter, Facebook etc., which have been wildly unregulated until recently (Facebook remains a zoo, while Twitter have at least started to put some health warnings on spurious claims). Unfortunately, the algorithm-based nature of this new media tends to isolate people into echo chambers and is suspectible to fakery in ways that old media wasn't.

I suspect that a heavy "gate-keeping" of the issues we can and cannot discuss in traditional media will result in a situation where groups with unpalatable views will recede to darker and darker corners of the Internet (this has probably already happened, if we consider events like the rise of Incel-related murders, Christchurch in New Zealand, the Capitol storming etc.). If one's position is heinous, I still believe that allowing a challenge in a moderated environment is infinitely better than allowing these thoughts to fester unchallenged in a sub-reddit somewhere."
I think the debate on homosexual having equal rights should be over now. The debate on ethnic supremacy and the establishment of ethno states/apartheid regimes you'd have thought should be over but apparently not.

I'd dare say there's a cohort of loons that would argue in favour of slavery still. I think there are fringe arguments that should just be shut down but are still rearing their head.

I can see the transgender debate start to subside shortly, hopefully as more people become familiar with the difference between sex and gender and that there's increased awareness of the fact that there's many cases where biological sex is not actually a binary outcome.

The moral zeitgeist moves, thankfully. Hopefully some of the opinions aired here become increasingly extreme.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3448 - 20/01/2021 16:45:13    2328240

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