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Replying To Greengrass:  "I'd agree with some of what you're saying Whammo but don't tell me for one minute that humanity is capable of explaining the origins of the universe and therefore the origins of life with or without religion. Science as humanity has developed it is not capable of explaining the origins of the universe. I can remember my late father talking about his catechism as it was taught in primary school in the early to mid forties. They were taught that the world began 4,000 years ago. He knew then as a young boy that that could not be true. There were assertions made by the Catholic religion that were blatantly untrue. Most of those have now been dispensed with. Show me any human philosophy that's perfect. Science too has evolved. Assertions made by science many years ago have now been disproven. Philosophies and science continuously evolve. Look say for example at the development of democracy. Real democracy has it's origins in the ideas of The Enlightenment. Scottish teachers who had studied the ideas of The Enlightenment greatly influenced the most prominent Founding Fathers like Thomas Jefferson and James Madison. Both of those men were crucial to the propagation of the idea that men were capable of ruling themselves as opposed to being ruled by a king or despot. Those Scottish teachers who made such a contribution to the development of democracy were profoundly religious. Jefferson and Madison developed democracy both theoretically and also in practice before, during and after their presidencies. They also developed a secular society. Madison in particular was crucially important in decoupling the state from the church. This all evolved as a result of the thinking and actions of people who were grounded in religion and also of people who believed in a secular society. Religion and secularism can and should coexist. . Sadly in the past in this country the Catholic hierarchy as opposed to the philosophy itself was highly intolerant of anything that might challenge it's preeminence . We have replaced that orthodoxy with a secular movement that unfortunately is equally if not more intolerant. The degree of intolerance exhibited by our newish, supposedly liberal secularism seems to be increasing. That is both sad and disconcerting. Apologies for the length of the post Whammo. I didn't intend for that to happen when I started."
The old green cathecism stated there was only one true faith, the Catholic Church. That was untrue, there were good people in all churches and faiths. I got into bother in second level for saying that in the 1960s. We have moved on from those absolutist notions.
The old rule was Pray, pay and obey. I still have faith, despite the old ideas imposed on us.

MicktheMiller (Offaly) - Posts: 320 - 16/01/2021 19:41:41    2327750

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Replying To worple:  "Fine Utah.But why have you and so many of your contemporaries no interest in religion? That mindset is part of the problem.You may desire to hold onto the finite freedom which secularity offers but to express no interest at all in the infinite freedom which religion presents??.The origin and ultimate meaning of life,why are we here, is life just a meaningless process without meaning or purpose? Why do these great philosophical questions not interest people with your obvious ability? I am not here talking about the{in some ways} fake religion of the de Valera times but the religion of some of the greatest intellects the world has known."
Maybe no interest was the wrong choice of words,I was merely trying to convey that I wouldnt be a defender of the church ,but would have good time for the brothers I had as teachers.Perhaps I'm picking and choosing like those people I mentioned in the previous post, I dont know.I wouldnt be anti religon either-there's plenty of sound people on either side of the divide including members of my own family.Its just that rightly or wrongly I wouldnt spend too much time thinking about it

UtahBlaine (Galway) - Posts: 89 - 16/01/2021 20:40:11    2327758

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Replying To Greengrass:  "I'd agree with some of what you're saying Whammo but don't tell me for one minute that humanity is capable of explaining the origins of the universe and therefore the origins of life with or without religion. Science as humanity has developed it is not capable of explaining the origins of the universe. I can remember my late father talking about his catechism as it was taught in primary school in the early to mid forties. They were taught that the world began 4,000 years ago. He knew then as a young boy that that could not be true. There were assertions made by the Catholic religion that were blatantly untrue. Most of those have now been dispensed with. Show me any human philosophy that's perfect. Science too has evolved. Assertions made by science many years ago have now been disproven. Philosophies and science continuously evolve. Look say for example at the development of democracy. Real democracy has it's origins in the ideas of The Enlightenment. Scottish teachers who had studied the ideas of The Enlightenment greatly influenced the most prominent Founding Fathers like Thomas Jefferson and James Madison. Both of those men were crucial to the propagation of the idea that men were capable of ruling themselves as opposed to being ruled by a king or despot. Those Scottish teachers who made such a contribution to the development of democracy were profoundly religious. Jefferson and Madison developed democracy both theoretically and also in practice before, during and after their presidencies. They also developed a secular society. Madison in particular was crucially important in decoupling the state from the church. This all evolved as a result of the thinking and actions of people who were grounded in religion and also of people who believed in a secular society. Religion and secularism can and should coexist. . Sadly in the past in this country the Catholic hierarchy as opposed to the philosophy itself was highly intolerant of anything that might challenge it's preeminence . We have replaced that orthodoxy with a secular movement that unfortunately is equally if not more intolerant. The degree of intolerance exhibited by our newish, supposedly liberal secularism seems to be increasing. That is both sad and disconcerting. Apologies for the length of the post Whammo. I didn't intend for that to happen when I started."
I'm not against the idea of their being metaphorical truths in religion.

I actually think also that there's a certain part of the Catholic message around the crucifixion and Jesus paying for original sin could be a very liberating message if the Catholic Church had focused on that.

The do unto others as you'd like done unto you certainly is a good philosophy and is centred on democracy.

I don't and cannot believe in any afterlife, existence of a literal God.

The Catholic Church as an institution I have very strong negative feelings towards also.

Religion has had an important role to play in the world to this point, I'd never say that it's not an important part of human culture. I just think we can move forward from it and that maybe some of what it was useful for can just be replaced by philosophy.

There are aspects of organised religion I miss too. The idea of communion and coming together of the people is a nice message. Things like the breaking of the fasts during Ramadan are interesting traditions from Islam too. As I've become increasingly atheist though I just can't partake in those Catholic traditions any longer. I do wish there were something to replace them for me and I also think society probably does lack some cohesion as these customs become less popular. Still I don't think I can or should devote time, energy or support to something I don't believe in. I can't be associated with something that at an institutional level has done such harm too.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3448 - 16/01/2021 20:54:10    2327761

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Replying To MicktheMiller:  "The old green cathecism stated there was only one true faith, the Catholic Church. That was untrue, there were good people in all churches and faiths. I got into bother in second level for saying that in the 1960s. We have moved on from those absolutist notions.
The old rule was Pray, pay and obey. I still have faith, despite the old ideas imposed on us."
For the vast majority of our history we were a pagan nation, the CC were thankfully only a blip relatively speaking.

realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8127 - 16/01/2021 20:55:45    2327762

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Replying To Suas Sios:  "Worple, how can you say religion presents "infinite freedom"?

Christians believe we are all born with original sin. Every child is in debt to god from the moment they are born, heading straight for hell unless they accept jesus.

Muslims believe in complete submission to allah or face eternity in hell. Their scripture is supposed to be perfect and unaltered and cannot be questioned.

This isn't freedom, far from it.

A secular society allows the individual to examine the claims and whatever evidence presented before drawing their own conclusions."
Suas.The assertion that a baby can be born with personal sin is obviously absurd.
Finite/Infinite Freedom .As this is a sports forum we can't go into deep theological discussion.
FINITE..has to do with voluntarism.The great mantra of our time is" I'm in charge.I will decide what's right and wrong.You don't tell me anything.There is no objective morality.'' This only leaves the quest for wealth,pleasure,power and honour which, taken to extremes, leads not to real freedom but to addiction.

INFINITE ..Has to do with submission to God. If Micheal Martin or Michael D.asked me to submit to them I'd tell them where to go. But God....that's different. In short it is the acceptance of the invitation from God to collaborate with Him in perfecting this imperfect world.....Now that's an offer we can't refuse!!

worple (Roscommon) - Posts: 294 - 16/01/2021 21:05:08    2327764

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Replying To worple:  "Suas.The assertion that a baby can be born with personal sin is obviously absurd.
Finite/Infinite Freedom .As this is a sports forum we can't go into deep theological discussion.
FINITE..has to do with voluntarism.The great mantra of our time is" I'm in charge.I will decide what's right and wrong.You don't tell me anything.There is no objective morality.'' This only leaves the quest for wealth,pleasure,power and honour which, taken to extremes, leads not to real freedom but to addiction.

INFINITE ..Has to do with submission to God. If Micheal Martin or Michael D.asked me to submit to them I'd tell them where to go. But God....that's different. In short it is the acceptance of the invitation from God to collaborate with Him in perfecting this imperfect world.....Now that's an offer we can't refuse!!"
This sort of rhetoric of answering the call of God has been used throughout history as the justification for some horrific crimes.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3448 - 17/01/2021 08:17:06    2327778

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Replying To MesAmis:  "Politicians don't have to impartial during referendums?

A lot of No side people were very upset when some in the media asked them to defend their position that is true. I've never heard of Niall Boylan so I'll take your word for it that he was tip top.

I think you're reaching a bit to be honest. I don't see how a democratically run referendum that pretty much went along the lines that polls were predicting proves the massive influence that the Woke Brigade have on Irish society. The fact that we had to have a referendum in the first place does show the massive influence and power that the Church had though. Most countries that allowed Women to have Reprodtive Rights over their own bodies didn't require a referendum.

Plenty of people removed or defaced posters on both sides, as has happened in every referendum I can remember.

The Woke Bogeyman has a long, long way to go to catch up with the Church in terms of influence and control."
I know that politicians don't have to be impartial in a referendum.

The No side had no where near the same level of venom or contempt the yes side had to those who opposed them.

I dont see how I could be reaching, yes it was a democratic referendum but I really do believe myself that the Irish public were manipulated and guilted into voting yes by using a tragedy that happened wrongly to woman that should never have happened and also her family asked the yes side not to use her story for their campaign but they did anyway and using all sorts of extreme scenarios to justify abortion as a use for birth control. Our major political parties were pro-life not that long ago and then they suddenly changed their stand very quickly yet no-one asked why, it wouldn't have to do with them being greased and influenced by individuals and big pharmaceutical companies with big investments in abortion clinics and stem-cell research. People who failed to see this were at best conned. Now I bear no ill will or ill feelings to those who voted yes but I really would question the morals and etitics of those people who celebrated a result which in essence ensured the ending of unborn babies lives with jubilation and victory in Dublin Castle.

Fair enough you are right the "woke bogeyman" as you call him has a long way before he has the influence and control the church had, but he very much has the potential to if given the chance and he is doing his best to get there, as we saw with the ridiculous demands he was making during BLM demonstrations last June and he and those who share his ideology will wait for every opportunity to force their ideology on Irish society and else where. The days of the church influence and control on Irish society and the ideologies of Eamon de Valera and John Charles McQuaid are gone and will never return thankfully and yes it should never be forgotten. But now the main threats to free Irish and other western societies of free thought and expression are neo-liberal wokeism and the steady rise of radical Islam which is not compatible with western culture.

Like I said before I have no interest in having a row with you MesAmis. I respect you as a poster I find you make good points on sporting discussions, I just have very different views on social issues than yourself and from interactions I have with you, you debate with a bit of wit and unlike others I have encountered on this site you have manners for those who don't share your views in debate.

DUALSUPPORT (Limerick) - Posts: 967 - 17/01/2021 08:40:01    2327780

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Replying To worple:  "Suas.The assertion that a baby can be born with personal sin is obviously absurd.
Finite/Infinite Freedom .As this is a sports forum we can't go into deep theological discussion.
FINITE..has to do with voluntarism.The great mantra of our time is" I'm in charge.I will decide what's right and wrong.You don't tell me anything.There is no objective morality.'' This only leaves the quest for wealth,pleasure,power and honour which, taken to extremes, leads not to real freedom but to addiction.

INFINITE ..Has to do with submission to God. If Micheal Martin or Michael D.asked me to submit to them I'd tell them where to go. But God....that's different. In short it is the acceptance of the invitation from God to collaborate with Him in perfecting this imperfect world.....Now that's an offer we can't refuse!!"
Havn't the churches as organisations embarked on a "quest for wealth, pleasure, power and honour " since they were founded to some degree or another? And let numerous bad men and women into their ranks over the years too. If God invites you to collaborate with him in perfecting this imperfect world maybe suggest to him that some of the people purporting to represent him down here on the planet might be a good place to start. Not that any of this should be discussed on a sports forum.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 2423 - 17/01/2021 10:45:27    2327792

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Replying To realdub:  "For the vast majority of our history we were a pagan nation, the CC were thankfully only a blip relatively speaking."
I always find it funny that pagan beliefs are way closer to the truth than later religious beliefs.

If there's anything that should be worshipped it is the Sun. without it there'd be no Earth or solar system at all.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3448 - 17/01/2021 11:23:06    2327795

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I always find it funny that pagan beliefs are way closer to the truth than later religious beliefs.

If there's anything that should be worshipped it is the Sun. without it there'd be no Earth or solar system at all."
Yes the sun and the solstices,we have been moved away from the natural world with Christianity using the ancient celebration of the winter solstice and using it to celebrate Christmas......celebrating the birth of a man whose birth date has never been found to be recorded anywhere.
Same way with Easter,a Pagan Festival also.

ONdeDITCH (Limerick) - Posts: 755 - 17/01/2021 11:38:39    2327797

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Replying To DUALSUPPORT:  "I know that politicians don't have to be impartial in a referendum.

The No side had no where near the same level of venom or contempt the yes side had to those who opposed them.

I dont see how I could be reaching, yes it was a democratic referendum but I really do believe myself that the Irish public were manipulated and guilted into voting yes by using a tragedy that happened wrongly to woman that should never have happened and also her family asked the yes side not to use her story for their campaign but they did anyway and using all sorts of extreme scenarios to justify abortion as a use for birth control. Our major political parties were pro-life not that long ago and then they suddenly changed their stand very quickly yet no-one asked why, it wouldn't have to do with them being greased and influenced by individuals and big pharmaceutical companies with big investments in abortion clinics and stem-cell research. People who failed to see this were at best conned. Now I bear no ill will or ill feelings to those who voted yes but I really would question the morals and etitics of those people who celebrated a result which in essence ensured the ending of unborn babies lives with jubilation and victory in Dublin Castle.

Fair enough you are right the "woke bogeyman" as you call him has a long way before he has the influence and control the church had, but he very much has the potential to if given the chance and he is doing his best to get there, as we saw with the ridiculous demands he was making during BLM demonstrations last June and he and those who share his ideology will wait for every opportunity to force their ideology on Irish society and else where. The days of the church influence and control on Irish society and the ideologies of Eamon de Valera and John Charles McQuaid are gone and will never return thankfully and yes it should never be forgotten. But now the main threats to free Irish and other western societies of free thought and expression are neo-liberal wokeism and the steady rise of radical Islam which is not compatible with western culture.

Like I said before I have no interest in having a row with you MesAmis. I respect you as a poster I find you make good points on sporting discussions, I just have very different views on social issues than yourself and from interactions I have with you, you debate with a bit of wit and unlike others I have encountered on this site you have manners for those who don't share your views in debate."
Firstly I don't look at this as a row but as an exchange of ideas.

I appreciate where you are coming from and this is an example of what other posters failed to do earlier in the thread. You are backing up your opinion rather than just throwing out clichéd labels, however I do disagree with a number of your points.

Political parties that were once anti-abortion did indeed change their stance, they changed it because public opinion had changed over the years. Political parties follow public opinion they very rarely shape it. I think the Savita case was a driver to get the campaign restarted but I do believe they most people had their minds made up over the years, like I mean everyone knows women that went to England over the years. Also I think you're misinformed about Savita's family also, her father went as far as to call for the new law to be named in her honour.

There has been a lot of complaints by the No side about venom and contempt etc etc. However, and I don't mean this to sound patronising at all, but this was a contentious, emotive, adult debate. Like I've said earlier, everyone is entitled to air their view but equally everyone else is completely entitled to attack that view. Everyone has to accept this rather than hiding behind the complaints of "we're being shouted down". They weren't being shouted down they were merely failing to defend their position adequately imo.

I'm not sure if 'neo-Liberal wokeism' is a threat at all to be honest because I like the vast majority of people don't know what it even means. Everyone in Ireland is more free than ever to say and think what they want, but as always, you aren't free to do that and not have to justify your thoughts.

I think social media and the traditional media has polarised people's views on these issues as well. Those on the extreme of both sides are heard the most and are the furthest apart, however the 99% of people are much closer to the middle and each other in my view.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13314 - 17/01/2021 14:06:33    2327806

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I always find it funny that pagan beliefs are way closer to the truth than later religious beliefs.

If there's anything that should be worshipped it is the Sun. without it there'd be no Earth or solar system at all."
Pretty much!

realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8127 - 17/01/2021 14:08:49    2327807

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I always find it funny that pagan beliefs are way closer to the truth than later religious beliefs.

If there's anything that should be worshipped it is the Sun. without it there'd be no Earth or solar system at all."
It is isn't it. They were certainly on to something in terms of the worshipping of nature and the environment.

They lose points for the human sacrifices though!

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13314 - 17/01/2021 15:13:20    2327811

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Replying To worple:  "Suas.The assertion that a baby can be born with personal sin is obviously absurd.
Finite/Infinite Freedom .As this is a sports forum we can't go into deep theological discussion.
FINITE..has to do with voluntarism.The great mantra of our time is" I'm in charge.I will decide what's right and wrong.You don't tell me anything.There is no objective morality.'' This only leaves the quest for wealth,pleasure,power and honour which, taken to extremes, leads not to real freedom but to addiction.

INFINITE ..Has to do with submission to God. If Micheal Martin or Michael D.asked me to submit to them I'd tell them where to go. But God....that's different. In short it is the acceptance of the invitation from God to collaborate with Him in perfecting this imperfect world.....Now that's an offer we can't refuse!!"
So we agree on the christian belief regarding original sin? It's absurd and cannot be defended.

I wouldn't enter in deep theological discussion with anyone these days. Total waste of time. Theologists are experts in the unknowable, endlessly trotting out the same circular reasoning.

I was trying to challenge you on your terminology and I think I see what you mean in the reply about FINITE freedom. You are linking it to the free will issue because we are choosing what we personally believe about right and wrong, and that this can be corrupted when left in the hands of mortals, something like that?
I disagree. Look up Sam Harris' ideas about objective morality in The Moral Landscape.

As another has pointed out to you, the church abused its power and hoarded wealth as much if not more than any godless regime or individual in history, when they should have known better if their religion had any legitimacy in the first place. Having the freedom to make our own decisions and mistakes is still preferable to living by holy laws dictated by god or the authors of the scriptures.

This idea of INFINITE freedom makes no sense to me. You are voluntarily submitting to god under fear of eternal damnation. Can't you see the contradiction in that? God isn't extending you an invitation, he's coercing you to obey or be punished.

Have a personal relationship with your god if that works for you but if I was you i'd drop the attempt to equate being religious with freedom.

Suas Sios (None) - Posts: 1475 - 17/01/2021 15:58:05    2327816

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In terms of chucking the ball in at half time is probably no different to people placing children into their care. The Catholic church Post Act of Union (1801) was a church financed and totally beholding to the British establishment in Ireland. The Catholic Church in the 15th/16th century was a very different thing to the Roman lackeys in 19th/20th century. In terms of the GAA they patronised the Games, patronised politics and btw Protestant faiths were no different. We can wag retrospective fingers back in time, but four pillars of society colluded to allow suffering on an industrial scale. Society yeah our grandparents judged and washed their hands of young women and babies, the Justice system courts and guards facilliated it, politicians devised and the Christian church were to make of these young women and children. Men abused these women, condemned them and allowed it all to happen. Read Archbishop MacQuaids attempts to ban Camogie, in fact the Catholic church forbid the games, denied access to pitches, it was the British that gave the Camogie associated some grounds in Phoenix Park. So remember their is a reason why they are not members of GAA they were not wanted and remarkable some still hold that. In terms of beliefs these are private things to abuse anyone because of their gender, colour, faith is a hate crime. Freedom has limits it has always been so, and before people say religion is responsible for wars thats a fantasy, man is. Hitler, Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot were all committed atheists.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4665 - 17/01/2021 16:36:15    2327819

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I always find it funny that pagan beliefs are way closer to the truth than later religious beliefs.

If there's anything that should be worshipped it is the Sun. without it there'd be no Earth or solar system at all."
Always like the nudity stuff too.
Big plus.

catch22 (USA) - Posts: 2117 - 17/01/2021 16:56:23    2327820

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Replying To catch22:  "Always like the nudity stuff too.
Big plus."
The drinking and dancing and singing too! Altogether far more fun!

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 2423 - 17/01/2021 17:26:08    2327826

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The GAA in its wisdom many moons ago decided to ban all talk about politics at its meetings. We would be wise to do likewise ! Adding religion makes it a very emotive mix. Leave it to those 'in charge' to make the calls. Stick to the games !!!

carlowman (Carlow) - Posts: 1618 - 17/01/2021 18:02:09    2327830

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Replying To Suas Sios:  "So we agree on the christian belief regarding original sin? It's absurd and cannot be defended.

I wouldn't enter in deep theological discussion with anyone these days. Total waste of time. Theologists are experts in the unknowable, endlessly trotting out the same circular reasoning.

I was trying to challenge you on your terminology and I think I see what you mean in the reply about FINITE freedom. You are linking it to the free will issue because we are choosing what we personally believe about right and wrong, and that this can be corrupted when left in the hands of mortals, something like that?
I disagree. Look up Sam Harris' ideas about objective morality in The Moral Landscape.

As another has pointed out to you, the church abused its power and hoarded wealth as much if not more than any godless regime or individual in history, when they should have known better if their religion had any legitimacy in the first place. Having the freedom to make our own decisions and mistakes is still preferable to living by holy laws dictated by god or the authors of the scriptures.

This idea of INFINITE freedom makes no sense to me. You are voluntarily submitting to god under fear of eternal damnation. Can't you see the contradiction in that? God isn't extending you an invitation, he's coercing you to obey or be punished.

Have a personal relationship with your god if that works for you but if I was you i'd drop the attempt to equate being religious with freedom."
For a start ,I said personal sin.

worple (Roscommon) - Posts: 294 - 17/01/2021 18:10:46    2327833

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Replying To catch22:  "Always like the nudity stuff too.
Big plus."
Some worship the tabloid Sun.

MicktheMiller (Offaly) - Posts: 320 - 17/01/2021 19:24:09    2327844

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