National Forum

Bloody Sunday

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Replying To Fionn:  "https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2020/1111/1177535-dublin-bridge/"
Great idea in memory of Bloody Sunday.

Fionn (Dublin) - Posts: 3309 - 11/11/2020 20:58:10    2307792

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Replying To KillingFields:  "I think 'unnecessary' is the right word. Northern Ireland has developed as a separate entity. Its natural political development is in its own space. I dont think Northern Ireland coming into a United Ireland is going to help anybody. Its better off getting on with things the way they are or striking g out on its own with Help from us and the rest of the UK.
bloodyban (Limerick) - Posts: 1303 - 11/11/2020 11:03:59
Well its not going to go out on its own or come into a united Ireland

You are correct in that they do receive billions of pounds. But! The six counties of Ireland that you refer to existed and survived long before partition, so obviously your knowledge of history is time limited. A very significant amount of billions go to paying all the retired civil servants from a particular background. Bloodyban obviously did not do any geography - 32 counties in the identity know as Ireland.

The country will be united but when nobody knows except it may be sooner than most expect. On the issue of cost! most informed folk would know that the cost will be marginal. The German minister who oversaw unification carried out a detailed analysis on that topic and concluded that the cost will be very little (and not billions) with a significant cost benefit within a couple of years. Do you not think that the people of the six counties are as able to work productively as the folk who we have welcomed into the country from the various European countries and beyond.
browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2179 - 11/11/2020 14:26:57
Where does all the money for services, welfare etc come from needed if Northern Ireland was to join the south. Do you have a link to what that german minister said?
A report by Trinity College Dublin academics models unification as causing a dramatic fall in the standard of living across the entire island.
`The Northern Ireland ­Economy: Problems and Prospects', by economists John Fitzgerald and Edgar LW Morgenroth, notes that the north relies on an around €10billion UK subsidy to prop up the economy

Thankfully you are in the minority as most reasonable people see re-unification as inevitable in the not too distant future. The six county state is a failed entity and nothing will ever change that. The new republic would be an economic powerhouse on the fringe of Europe and close ties to America.
tireoghainabu (Tyrone) - Posts: 88 - 11/11/2020 14:27:46
What evidence exists that suggests Ireland if united would be an economic powerhouse? North is already heavily subcidised by the UK government so Dublin would have to take on that burden then

FF crashed the economy in 2002-2008, Fine Gael crashed the economy over Covid in 2020, yes there was a world wide property crash in 2008, and a world wide pandemic in 2020. There was also an economic crash in the 80's. Under mainly Fine Gael. I don't think S.f could do any worse to be honest. S.F are right when they say it will take an all island approach to rejuvenate the economy post covid.
galwayford (Galway) - Posts: 1907 - 11/11/2020 15:53:44
You cant say Fine Gael did anything to crash the economy over covid.

I do not want to be closer to Europe. We have more in common with the US than mainland Europe. European identity doesn't exist and a federal Europe would be bad for Ireland.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 128 - 11/11/2020 18:19:50
Why would you not want to be closer to our close neighbours and far more important trading partners where growth can be much higher than the US.

Any man who doesn't want Ireland reunited isn't much of an Irishman in my opinion, Brexit has moved that day closer and I hope there is a border poll within the next 5 to 10 years.
Just look at the Covid pandemic as an example, it could be handled so much better with an all Ireland approach,
a partitioned Ireland makes no sense and never did, it was a cop out at the time and was never meant to last.

Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 1011 - 11/11/2020 19:33:42
No chance of that happening in 5-10 years and a united ireland will cost everyone in the short and long term."
People said that Germany could never be re- United but look at it now. Just imagine the potential financial aid that would be on offer from the EU and the Irish-American influence.
Britain would be required to at its share for a period of time, say 5-1 years also.

tireoghainabu (Tyrone) - Posts: 92 - 11/11/2020 21:19:39    2307800

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Killing Fields, you have bad habit of taking comments out of context.

"Why would you not want to be closer to our close neighbours and far more important trading partners where growth can be much higher than the US."

We're in the Single Market which is close enough. A federal Europe is different beast and would require giving up a lot more power to Brussels. That is what I am opposed to. The EU should be a free trade zone and nothing more. And growth is not much higher within the EU.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 204 - 11/11/2020 21:23:40    2307801

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Replying To tireoghainabu:  "
Replying To KillingFields:  "I think 'unnecessary' is the right word. Northern Ireland has developed as a separate entity. Its natural political development is in its own space. I dont think Northern Ireland coming into a United Ireland is going to help anybody. Its better off getting on with things the way they are or striking g out on its own with Help from us and the rest of the UK.
bloodyban (Limerick) - Posts: 1303 - 11/11/2020 11:03:59
Well its not going to go out on its own or come into a united Ireland

You are correct in that they do receive billions of pounds. But! The six counties of Ireland that you refer to existed and survived long before partition, so obviously your knowledge of history is time limited. A very significant amount of billions go to paying all the retired civil servants from a particular background. Bloodyban obviously did not do any geography - 32 counties in the identity know as Ireland.

The country will be united but when nobody knows except it may be sooner than most expect. On the issue of cost! most informed folk would know that the cost will be marginal. The German minister who oversaw unification carried out a detailed analysis on that topic and concluded that the cost will be very little (and not billions) with a significant cost benefit within a couple of years. Do you not think that the people of the six counties are as able to work productively as the folk who we have welcomed into the country from the various European countries and beyond.
browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2179 - 11/11/2020 14:26:57
Where does all the money for services, welfare etc come from needed if Northern Ireland was to join the south. Do you have a link to what that german minister said?
A report by Trinity College Dublin academics models unification as causing a dramatic fall in the standard of living across the entire island.
`The Northern Ireland ­Economy: Problems and Prospects', by economists John Fitzgerald and Edgar LW Morgenroth, notes that the north relies on an around €10billion UK subsidy to prop up the economy

Thankfully you are in the minority as most reasonable people see re-unification as inevitable in the not too distant future. The six county state is a failed entity and nothing will ever change that. The new republic would be an economic powerhouse on the fringe of Europe and close ties to America.
tireoghainabu (Tyrone) - Posts: 88 - 11/11/2020 14:27:46
What evidence exists that suggests Ireland if united would be an economic powerhouse? North is already heavily subcidised by the UK government so Dublin would have to take on that burden then

FF crashed the economy in 2002-2008, Fine Gael crashed the economy over Covid in 2020, yes there was a world wide property crash in 2008, and a world wide pandemic in 2020. There was also an economic crash in the 80's. Under mainly Fine Gael. I don't think S.f could do any worse to be honest. S.F are right when they say it will take an all island approach to rejuvenate the economy post covid.
galwayford (Galway) - Posts: 1907 - 11/11/2020 15:53:44
You cant say Fine Gael did anything to crash the economy over covid.

I do not want to be closer to Europe. We have more in common with the US than mainland Europe. European identity doesn't exist and a federal Europe would be bad for Ireland.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 128 - 11/11/2020 18:19:50
Why would you not want to be closer to our close neighbours and far more important trading partners where growth can be much higher than the US.

Any man who doesn't want Ireland reunited isn't much of an Irishman in my opinion, Brexit has moved that day closer and I hope there is a border poll within the next 5 to 10 years.
Just look at the Covid pandemic as an example, it could be handled so much better with an all Ireland approach,
a partitioned Ireland makes no sense and never did, it was a cop out at the time and was never meant to last.

Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 1011 - 11/11/2020 19:33:42
No chance of that happening in 5-10 years and a united ireland will cost everyone in the short and long term."
People said that Germany could never be re- United but look at it now. Just imagine the potential financial aid that would be on offer from the EU and the Irish-American influence.
Britain would be required to at its share for a period of time, say 5-1 years also."
Sorry 5-10 years

tireoghainabu (Tyrone) - Posts: 92 - 11/11/2020 21:47:12    2307805

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People said that Germany could never be re- United but look at it now. Just imagine the potential financial aid that would be on offer from the EU and the Irish-American influence.
Britain would be required to at its share for a period of time, say 5-10 years also.
tireoghainabu (Tyrone) - Posts: 90 - 11/11/2020 21:19:39
Is Germany really comparable though?
Not the same.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 1662 - 11/11/2020 22:03:10    2307810

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "Killing Fields, you have bad habit of taking comments out of context.

"Why would you not want to be closer to our close neighbours and far more important trading partners where growth can be much higher than the US."

We're in the Single Market which is close enough. A federal Europe is different beast and would require giving up a lot more power to Brussels. That is what I am opposed to. The EU should be a free trade zone and nothing more. And growth is not much higher within the EU."
Says you who's been taking comments out of context throughout this thread.
There is far more potential growth and reason to trade more with europe on our doorstep than the US.
It makes far more sense especially when we are in the EU and with the whole UK brexit issue to work more with the rest of europe.
Being in the single market alone is not near enough. What powers are you opposed to giving up that are even being rumoured that we would be losing to Brussels/Europe?

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 1662 - 11/11/2020 22:06:20    2307812

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I disdain that poppy...celebrating war and all the innocent people that died!

ONdeDITCH (Limerick) - Posts: 438 - 11/11/2020 22:31:03    2307817

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Says you who's been taking comments out of context throughout this thread.
There is far more potential growth and reason to trade more with europe on our doorstep than the US.
It makes far more sense especially when we are in the EU and with the whole UK brexit issue to work more with the rest of europe.
Being in the single market alone is not near enough. What powers are you opposed to giving up that are even being rumoured that we would be losing to Brussels/Europe?"
I haven't taken any comment out of context in this thread. That's your game. We already trade with Europe. We are already in the Single Market. There is no need any further integration. As for powers. A federal union would require us to give up control of our military and join a European army. External immigration, taxes, etc would all be decided by Brussels.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 204 - 11/11/2020 23:08:03    2307826

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It awful pity that covid has hampered commemorations for the bloody sunday centenary, it's probably the biggest significant moment in the GAA's unique history.

Personally I would love to see a United Ireland on a mostly patriotic view point. Ultimately it's up to the population of the 6 counties to decide their faith but I still feel it's very unfair from some in the south to tell nationalists their not welcome to join the republic we are all Irish here and 1 of the most disgusting things I have seen on Irish television was that horrible woman telling Martin Mcguinness he was from another country on prime time during the 2011 presidential election. I'll admit I don't fully know the pros and cons of a United Ireland but it's too easy to say the south can't afford it, it's in the Good Friday agreement if the majority of the North vote to join the republic it will be accommodated and it's looking that it very well could happen in the not so distant future maybe it's time to sit down nationalists, unionist and us in the south and come up with a plan for a peaceful and prosperous United Ireland with respect on all sides.

DUALSUPPORT (Limerick) - Posts: 719 - 11/11/2020 23:13:21    2307829

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Replying To ONdeDITCH:  "I disdain that poppy...celebrating war and all the innocent people that died!"
I don't think the idea behind it is to celebrate war.

Bon (Kildare) - Posts: 985 - 11/11/2020 23:28:19    2307836

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "I haven't taken any comment out of context in this thread. That's your game. We already trade with Europe. We are already in the Single Market. There is no need any further integration. As for powers. A federal union would require us to give up control of our military and join a European army. External immigration, taxes, etc would all be decided by Brussels."
There completely is need for further integration. Extensive areas for growth. We need to be using foreign languages more and learning more to assist trade.
We are not going to see any european army or at least we will be able to maintain our neutral status as we have been on any actions carried out by the EU.

If we had never joined the EU the country would never have progressed and modernised in the manner that it has. Joining europe was the best thing to happen to this country.
External immigration wont be decided by EU. We are not and will never be part of schengen area so have always been in control of our borders.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 1662 - 12/11/2020 09:17:20    2307860

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Replying To galwayford:  "Personally I would prefer to see the Irish language revived in the South, rather than reunification. But that alas is not going to happen. Tá brón orm. So unity is the second option. Ulster unionists could consider resettling in Scotland or England post unification. That is their homeland."
Thats simultaneously an hilarious and outrageous comment and that garnered 5 likes. To honestly put forward the idea of resettling up to a million people in Scotland or England just shows the ignorance we have when discussing Northern Ireland. So welcome to a united Ireland and if you don't like it you can settle back in England or Scotland...all the unionist farmers will be given farms...all the unionists business owners will get new businesses. And it got 5 thumbs up !! You couldn't make it up.
Then you have a guy wheeling out the religion of people as a barometer. The last estimate was a 60/40 so more and more Catholics are opting out of a United Ireland. They arent on a GAA website like this obviously ...

bloodyban (Limerick) - Posts: 1338 - 12/11/2020 09:30:25    2307863

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Replying To bloodyban:  "Thats simultaneously an hilarious and outrageous comment and that garnered 5 likes. To honestly put forward the idea of resettling up to a million people in Scotland or England just shows the ignorance we have when discussing Northern Ireland. So welcome to a united Ireland and if you don't like it you can settle back in England or Scotland...all the unionist farmers will be given farms...all the unionists business owners will get new businesses. And it got 5 thumbs up !! You couldn't make it up.
Then you have a guy wheeling out the religion of people as a barometer. The last estimate was a 60/40 so more and more Catholics are opting out of a United Ireland. They arent on a GAA website like this obviously ..."
If you think religion isn't a barometer of the political divide and the future direction in NI you know absolutely nothing about the place. Indeed it's worrying that people like you are so ignorant about the future of this island with their heads stuck in the sand. In 20 years the Catholic vote will be in the majority
By the way I referenced census figures you are throwing out a guess {estimate).and to say more catholics are "opting out" of a United Ireland after the Brexit fiasco, when it is in fact sections of the protestant population considering it as an alternative, is just plain fiction

mhunicean_abu (Monaghan) - Posts: 807 - 12/11/2020 11:17:57    2307908

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I have a strong memory of emigrating to London in the late 80's. Garret FitzGerald of F.G was the prime minister for most of that time. There was the troubles in the North of course, that did not help. There was unemployment and emigration, under both FF and FG governments. PS I voted for Garret.

galwayford (Galway) - Posts: 1930 - 12/11/2020 13:31:39    2307964

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Replying To KillingFields:  "There completely is need for further integration. Extensive areas for growth. We need to be using foreign languages more and learning more to assist trade.
We are not going to see any european army or at least we will be able to maintain our neutral status as we have been on any actions carried out by the EU.

If we had never joined the EU the country would never have progressed and modernised in the manner that it has. Joining europe was the best thing to happen to this country.
External immigration wont be decided by EU. We are not and will never be part of schengen area so have always been in control of our borders."
We don't need to be using foreign languages more. Most countries are either using English or transitioning to English. The French kicked up a storm when the EU said it would continue using English. You're wrong on everything here. Further integration is not needed and always leads to more powers being stripped away. A federal Europe would require a European military and central control of external immigration.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 204 - 12/11/2020 13:53:03    2307976

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Sorry, I must be in the wrong thread, I opened it to check peoples thoughts on the upcoming Bloody Sunday commemorations and found myself in the middle of the Dáil with the Healy Raes. I'll leave side door.

Tir Conaill Abu (Donegal) - Posts: 1635 - 12/11/2020 14:04:11    2307980

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Replying To Bon:  "I don't think the idea behind it is to celebrate war."
It's to commemorate ALL who served in all conflicts.

So no, it doesn't celebrate war, but it does represent support for soldiers currently facing trial for war crimes, including crimes against "UK citizens" in Northern Ireland. It is a despicable act to continue to insist that it applies to all conflicts, and damages the effort to rightly commemorate good soldiers who served in WW1 and WW2 for example.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 4158 - 12/11/2020 14:16:28    2307988

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "We don't need to be using foreign languages more. Most countries are either using English or transitioning to English. The French kicked up a storm when the EU said it would continue using English. You're wrong on everything here. Further integration is not needed and always leads to more powers being stripped away. A federal Europe would require a European military and central control of external immigration."
HAHAHAHAHA
You havent been around europe much then. To trade and work more you very much need other languages.
We arent going to have a federal europe with a military and as we are outside schengen we will always be controlling people entering and exiting the country.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 1662 - 12/11/2020 14:36:12    2307995

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Replying To Tir Conaill Abu:  "Sorry, I must be in the wrong thread, I opened it to check peoples thoughts on the upcoming Bloody Sunday commemorations and found myself in the middle of the Dáil with the Healy Raes. I'll leave side door."
Which user was Michael and Danny? ;)

Dubsfan28 (Dublin) - Posts: 2362 - 12/11/2020 14:56:09    2308002

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Replying To KillingFields:  "HAHAHAHAHA
You havent been around europe much then. To trade and work more you very much need other languages.
We arent going to have a federal europe with a military and as we are outside schengen we will always be controlling people entering and exiting the country."
The bulk of business done in the EU is through English. Most business is not conducted by people travelling from town to town. A big factory in Slovakia will have people who can speak English. A federal Europe is the ultimate goal of the failed politicians in Europe.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 204 - 12/11/2020 16:20:47    2308040

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