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Straight Knockout In SFC, Advantage Who?

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Replying To Galway4ever:  "This year's format gives the likelihood of shock a probability, can't see Dublin or Kerry getting beaten in their provinces as they are both way ahead of best of the rest though Cork might be the most likely to be the surprise if there is one.
Galway and Donegal could be the other semifinalists and could potentially cause problems but it's hard to see past a repeat of last year's final though if there is to be a shock Galway might be the team to do it.
There is going to be a surreal atmosphere surrounding these games with the crowds, weather, time of year and format all different and it's going to be interesting to see how teams are going to adapt .
It'll be interesting....."
There's optimism and then there is delusion. I've seen galway this year. And trust me dubs would wipe the floor with them , and I say that as someone who has always had a soft spot for galway football.

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 17037 - 28/06/2020 20:49:32    2282173

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "Are you living in 1995 Sam? Have a look at the roll of honour in Leinster. It has been dominated by Dublin save for a few periods where Offaly and Meath emerged with great teams, and Wexford many many years ago. It's not far off Munster / Kerry levels of dominance. The 'great' Leinster championship is a myth. It was competitive for a while but that time is long gone and not coming back.

For those too lazy to look it up Dublin have won it 58 times and it'll be 59 this year, and 60 the year after, three times their nearest rival Meath with 20. The competition is a farce at this stage, more so than Munster. At least Cork have a punchers chance this year.

I'd favour getting rid of the provincials entirely tbh as I think the format is not fit for purpose, and if nothing else it might stop all the whingeing and cheap shots aimed at Kerry from the likes of yourself, although probably not."
Statistics don't lye granted but at the same time there would be a significant number of Leinster Championship matches well ahead in quality; competitivness and excitement than a number of the All Ireland semi finals or finals Kerry won over the years.

In it's day the Leinster Championship was amongst the best games of that particular summer. Yes this great Dublin set up has blown that and the All Ireland championship out of the water but they did the same to Leinster in the 70's but Leinster came back in the 80's and 90's and will do so again someday in the next couple of years.

When Leinster did strike back in the 80's and 90's we seen Offaly, Kildare, Meath and Dublin compete in All Ireland finals; 4 teams from the one province which shows there is huge potential in the Leinster Championship when the greatest team to play the game start to fall back into the pack.

I'm not sure Kerry really care to be honest but you're correct there would be more respect of the counties achievements outside the kingdom if there was a fairer system put in place where all the top teams have the same number of battles in the competition; something like we see in Div 1.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 712 - 28/06/2020 21:11:55    2282176

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Replying To sam1884:  "Statistics don't lye granted but at the same time there would be a significant number of Leinster Championship matches well ahead in quality; competitivness and excitement than a number of the All Ireland semi finals or finals Kerry won over the years.

In it's day the Leinster Championship was amongst the best games of that particular summer. Yes this great Dublin set up has blown that and the All Ireland championship out of the water but they did the same to Leinster in the 70's but Leinster came back in the 80's and 90's and will do so again someday in the next couple of years.

When Leinster did strike back in the 80's and 90's we seen Offaly, Kildare, Meath and Dublin compete in All Ireland finals; 4 teams from the one province which shows there is huge potential in the Leinster Championship when the greatest team to play the game start to fall back into the pack.

I'm not sure Kerry really care to be honest but you're correct there would be more respect of the counties achievements outside the kingdom if there was a fairer system put in place where all the top teams have the same number of battles in the competition; something like we see in Div 1."
Competitiveness among teams at the same level and quality are not always the same thing.

Yeah Munster has been a two team competition and there are several sleeping giants in Leinster. At the same time I think a lot of people would be surprised at the Leinster roll of honour and the extent to which one team has nearly always dominated. That twenty year period in the 80's and 90's was the exception really, and the Dubs were right in the mix throughout most of that time as well.

In the 00's the honours were shared around but none of the winners even made a final after Meath in 01 as Munster and Ulster teams dominated. Dublin had a very good team during that period but really underachieved for whatever reason.

I don't see the current status quo changing soon tbh. We are seeing players in Meath and Kildare like Nash and Flynn choose different sports or take time away from the game etc and Dublin are just so strong it makes it almost a self fulfilling prophecy that they will continue to strangle the competition. I may be wrong and they may drop off, who knows.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 1961 - 28/06/2020 22:21:33    2282180

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "I love how people often omit cork from the list of teams in Munster when it suits them to run down the competition. Kerry often had to overcome a top 5 side in Cork before playing anybody outside Munster, and even Tipperary made a semi a few years ago beating the Connacht champions easily along the way. Clare were very near Div 1 status quite recently too. The competition is not half as weak as many like to make out.

The biggest advantage anybody will have in this competition as always will be playing all the big games including the final at home, albeit that may be diminished this year if there are no fans in the stands.

As for Donegal being better than Kerry, come off it. They played a good open game in Croker when both were missing a host of very important players, Kerry were missing their three top midfielders that day which is unprecedented as far as I can remember. Over the course of the competition it's laughable to claim Donegal were better, they imploded in Castlebar against a very beatable mayo. It may be different in 2020 but if so let's see it before making those kind of claims."
I'd put Donegal level or ahead of Kerry. Our best 18 - 20 vs Kerry's I'd be pretty confident every day. Unless there are a lot more of those minors to come through I can't see Kerry getting better unless some of the existing players take it to another level, which is I accept very possible. In Jason McGee and Michael Langan Donegal will have the best midfield pairing in the country bar none very soon - an area the county has been relatively underweight in since the 1990s. The back are there also ie backs who can mark. And with Brennan, Paddy, Murphy and Gallen we've four good inside forwards. Kerry lost Mark O'Connor to Aussie Rules which is very unfortunate but where are all the others. On current showing I can't see Kerry beating Dublin anytime soon. Laois had serious minors which yielded one Leinster. Admittedly Kerry are too good to not make better use of talent. Of the 2014 minor final teams which Kerry won deservedly by a few points I think, we've had the better conversion to senior. And the draw does favour Kerry as they avoid Dublin until the final if they both get there.

DonegalAtlantic (Donegal) - Posts: 94 - 28/06/2020 22:47:00    2282184

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Replying To DonegalAtlantic:  "I'd put Donegal level or ahead of Kerry. Our best 18 - 20 vs Kerry's I'd be pretty confident every day. Unless there are a lot more of those minors to come through I can't see Kerry getting better unless some of the existing players take it to another level, which is I accept very possible. In Jason McGee and Michael Langan Donegal will have the best midfield pairing in the country bar none very soon - an area the county has been relatively underweight in since the 1990s. The back are there also ie backs who can mark. And with Brennan, Paddy, Murphy and Gallen we've four good inside forwards. Kerry lost Mark O'Connor to Aussie Rules which is very unfortunate but where are all the others. On current showing I can't see Kerry beating Dublin anytime soon. Laois had serious minors which yielded one Leinster. Admittedly Kerry are too good to not make better use of talent. Of the 2014 minor final teams which Kerry won deservedly by a few points I think, we've had the better conversion to senior. And the draw does favour Kerry as they avoid Dublin until the final if they both get there."
To answer you Kerry have Murphy in goals, Tom O'Sullivan and Jason Foley in the full back line, Gavin White and Brian O'Beaglaoich at half back, Diarmuid O'Connor at midfield and then in the forwards Sean O'Shea, Clifford, Killian Spillane and several other knocking on the door and others ready to come in to the panel at some stage. All of the above are 21-23 and should hopefully improve in time. Paul O'Shea is a serious midfielder/ half forward if I was to pick another star in the making but he is a year or two away and has had a couple of AFL trials so I don't know if he will stay around. Jack Barry, Gavin Crowley and Tadgh Morley are both quite young too, there is a good foundation there but whether it will translate in to success remains to be seen.

My worry is a lack of man markers and overall physicality, across the half back line in particular. They really need to find somebody in the Tomas O'Se mould there. David Moran is pushing on too and I see Barry as a Robin rather than Batman. Losing Mark O'Connor was a killer in terms of building a championship team but other teams have lost players too and you have to get on with it. Diarmuid O'Connor could be very good there in time but doesn't have the aggression or engine that Mark had / has.

You may well be right and Donegal could be on the cusp of something really special. All I am saying is let's see it before we crown them. I remember last year when the Super 8 groups were announced and the bookies had Kerry as favourites for the group much to the amusement of several posters on here who had Donegal as certainties to win it. We all know what happened. Expectation can be a dangerous thing.

I'd agree that Kerry have an easier path than Donegal in 2020 and never argued that point. Tyrone v Donegal in round 1 is brutal.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 1961 - 28/06/2020 23:20:03    2282185

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Replying To DonegalAtlantic:  "I'd put Donegal level or ahead of Kerry. Our best 18 - 20 vs Kerry's I'd be pretty confident every day. Unless there are a lot more of those minors to come through I can't see Kerry getting better unless some of the existing players take it to another level, which is I accept very possible. In Jason McGee and Michael Langan Donegal will have the best midfield pairing in the country bar none very soon - an area the county has been relatively underweight in since the 1990s. The back are there also ie backs who can mark. And with Brennan, Paddy, Murphy and Gallen we've four good inside forwards. Kerry lost Mark O'Connor to Aussie Rules which is very unfortunate but where are all the others. On current showing I can't see Kerry beating Dublin anytime soon. Laois had serious minors which yielded one Leinster. Admittedly Kerry are too good to not make better use of talent. Of the 2014 minor final teams which Kerry won deservedly by a few points I think, we've had the better conversion to senior. And the draw does favour Kerry as they avoid Dublin until the final if they both get there."
We've gotten Shane Ryan, Tom O'Sullivan, Brian O'Beaglaoich, Michael Burns and Killian Spillane from that minor team who have all started senior championship games. Liam Kearney was also on that team and he got an extended run in the league. If Mark O'Connor didn't go down under we would also have got him from that minor team and he would be one of the best players in the country. A very good return I would say.

Kerry15 (Kerry) - Posts: 597 - 28/06/2020 23:58:01    2282188

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Replying To DonegalAtlantic:  "I'd put Donegal level or ahead of Kerry. Our best 18 - 20 vs Kerry's I'd be pretty confident every day. Unless there are a lot more of those minors to come through I can't see Kerry getting better unless some of the existing players take it to another level, which is I accept very possible. In Jason McGee and Michael Langan Donegal will have the best midfield pairing in the country bar none very soon - an area the county has been relatively underweight in since the 1990s. The back are there also ie backs who can mark. And with Brennan, Paddy, Murphy and Gallen we've four good inside forwards. Kerry lost Mark O'Connor to Aussie Rules which is very unfortunate but where are all the others. On current showing I can't see Kerry beating Dublin anytime soon. Laois had serious minors which yielded one Leinster. Admittedly Kerry are too good to not make better use of talent. Of the 2014 minor final teams which Kerry won deservedly by a few points I think, we've had the better conversion to senior. And the draw does favour Kerry as they avoid Dublin until the final if they both get there."
A lot of wishful thinking here DonegalAtlantic. This is Kerry we're talking about here; dont ever write them off on the Gaelic football pitch even for a fraction of a second. I dont mean to be disrespectful but if Michael Murphy was out of that Donegal team, they are no longer Earth-shakers. Its a measure of just how good he is and how integral he is to his team. There is promise to Donegal no doubt about it and theyre a good, very good team. but it's here-say at the moment. Your whole tone reminds me a lot of the way Meath people grew to speak, including of Kerry after prolonged time at the top. Ultimately after time had passed, the time passed. Yours will as well.

Young_gael (Meath) - Posts: 393 - 29/06/2020 02:53:28    2282195

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Replying To Kerry15:  "We've gotten Shane Ryan, Tom O'Sullivan, Brian O'Beaglaoich, Michael Burns and Killian Spillane from that minor team who have all started senior championship games. Liam Kearney was also on that team and he got an extended run in the league. If Mark O'Connor didn't go down under we would also have got him from that minor team and he would be one of the best players in the country. A very good return I would say."
And Tomás O'Sé the dancer as well.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 11772 - 29/06/2020 10:12:43    2282207

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Mark O' Connor keeps getting better and better the less he plays. ;)

Should have, Could have Would have.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 3677 - 29/06/2020 10:14:24    2282209

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I would agree. We're shaping up well and building momentum but until we push through that glass ceiling, knocking a genuine big hitter out and reaching a semi final (or All Ireland final in the case of 2020) then potential is all it is. There were promising signs during the league that fellas like Langan were really starting to step up and ease the burden on Murphy. I know it's only league, but in the Monaghan game for example we beat them by 10 points. Langan got 0-5 from play and Murphy didn't score at all.

Tyrone will be enough to worry about, not to mention the rest of Ulster before we start to entertain thoughts of how we'd handle Kerry in a potential semi-final.

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 7076 - 29/06/2020 10:29:02    2282210

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Replying To Lockjaw:  "I would agree. We're shaping up well and building momentum but until we push through that glass ceiling, knocking a genuine big hitter out and reaching a semi final (or All Ireland final in the case of 2020) then potential is all it is. There were promising signs during the league that fellas like Langan were really starting to step up and ease the burden on Murphy. I know it's only league, but in the Monaghan game for example we beat them by 10 points. Langan got 0-5 from play and Murphy didn't score at all.

Tyrone will be enough to worry about, not to mention the rest of Ulster before we start to entertain thoughts of how we'd handle Kerry in a potential semi-final."
* correction, It would be the AI final if we were to meet Kerry in 2020.

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 7076 - 29/06/2020 10:46:44    2282212

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Donegal will have enough to worry about with Tyrone in the first round, that game could go either way. Until Donegal beat a big team in Croke Park, we are a promising team rather than genuine All-Ireland contenders. There are some good sides who are close to challenging - Tyrone, Donegal, Monaghan & Galway but they need to take a big scalp at headquarters to move to that next level i.e. beat Dublin, Kerry or Mayo.

Green_Gold (Donegal) - Posts: 1730 - 29/06/2020 11:18:34    2282217

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "Competitiveness among teams at the same level and quality are not always the same thing.

Yeah Munster has been a two team competition and there are several sleeping giants in Leinster. At the same time I think a lot of people would be surprised at the Leinster roll of honour and the extent to which one team has nearly always dominated. That twenty year period in the 80's and 90's was the exception really, and the Dubs were right in the mix throughout most of that time as well.

In the 00's the honours were shared around but none of the winners even made a final after Meath in 01 as Munster and Ulster teams dominated. Dublin had a very good team during that period but really underachieved for whatever reason.

I don't see the current status quo changing soon tbh. We are seeing players in Meath and Kildare like Nash and Flynn choose different sports or take time away from the game etc and Dublin are just so strong it makes it almost a self fulfilling prophecy that they will continue to strangle the competition. I may be wrong and they may drop off, who knows."
I understand where your coming from. Because Kerry are the aristrocrats of football there is always a tendancy to play down their achievements. It's kind of like that Kerry are never involved in classic matches unless they are beaten. People underestimate Kerry beating Cork only because they most often do it. Cork have a huge football playing population.
I disagree with you a bit about the Leinster championship down the years though.
In living memory Dublin did not always dominate Leinster like they have been for the last 15 years. Meath made the breakthrough in 1939. Between then and when this current period of Dublin dominance in Leinster started (1939-2005- 66 seasons) Meath won 18 Leinster's and 7 all Ireland's.
In the same time frame Offaly won 10 Leinsters and 3 All Ireland's.
In that time Dublin won 23 Leinster's and 8 All Irelands.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 772 - 29/06/2020 14:14:31    2282234

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Replying To Green_Gold:  "Donegal will have enough to worry about with Tyrone in the first round, that game could go either way. Until Donegal beat a big team in Croke Park, we are a promising team rather than genuine All-Ireland contenders. There are some good sides who are close to challenging - Tyrone, Donegal, Monaghan & Galway but they need to take a big scalp at headquarters to move to that next level i.e. beat Dublin, Kerry or Mayo."
Kerry were soft down the middle early last year and were very exposed, particularly against Cork. But they seemed to solve that as the year went on. They are exceptional footballers but I would still fancy Galway to get 3 or 4 goal chances against them most days............ taking the chances are a different matter.

We are unproven ourselves down the middle. PJ has obviously changed the emphasis of the team but we will see later on if KW was right not to trust the backs to defend without a blanket. I think they may struggle early on but they will grow if they can get through Connacht. Well capable of taking out any team but also could lose to Mayo or Rossies in Connacht final (apologies Sligo).

Donegal or Tyrone could topple any team although Donegal are very unproven albeit talented. Also Armagh & Monaghan could throw a spanner in up North but would be unlikely to trouble the big boys.

Could Cork do anything??? I'd say on their day but unlikely to do it a few times.

Kildare and Meath will be (or should be) a big force in the future but not this year.

Semi finals Kerry v Galway; Dublin v Donegal

Give it a lash after that

Mayonman (Galway) - Posts: 1293 - 29/06/2020 14:39:27    2282242

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Mark O' Connor keeps getting better and better the less he plays. ;)

Should have, Could have Would have."
Watch the 2015 All Ireland minor final or 2014 All Ireland minor semi final or any of the Hogan Cup finals he won and you'll see how good he was. How quickly he broke into the Geelong team also shows how good he is. If he was still here he would be better than Fenton. It's a huge pity for Kerry but look the likes of Derry and Meath have it worse especially as they're less able to able cope with the losses. Kerry have been affected the most though out of the top 6 or 7 teams.

Kerry15 (Kerry) - Posts: 597 - 29/06/2020 15:23:47    2282248

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Replying To Kerry15:  "Watch the 2015 All Ireland minor final or 2014 All Ireland minor semi final or any of the Hogan Cup finals he won and you'll see how good he was. How quickly he broke into the Geelong team also shows how good he is. If he was still here he would be better than Fenton. It's a huge pity for Kerry but look the likes of Derry and Meath have it worse especially as they're less able to able cope with the losses. Kerry have been affected the most though out of the top 6 or 7 teams."
Thats fine, he was a good prospect, he did well against other teenagers his age, the game is littered with good prospects that never bore fruit, im pointing out the assumption of him being "one of the best players in Ireland" by now - when he never played a senior intercouty game is a bit of a reach.

Jumping from being a good minor to being better then seen it, done it, never beaten in the championship and put your medals on the table Brian Fenton is just mad. Its like saying Jim Stynes was a better midiflder then Jack O Shea (Well now that you mention it). ;)

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 3677 - 29/06/2020 15:51:53    2282256

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Replying To Mayonman:  "Kerry were soft down the middle early last year and were very exposed, particularly against Cork. But they seemed to solve that as the year went on. They are exceptional footballers but I would still fancy Galway to get 3 or 4 goal chances against them most days............ taking the chances are a different matter.

We are unproven ourselves down the middle. PJ has obviously changed the emphasis of the team but we will see later on if KW was right not to trust the backs to defend without a blanket. I think they may struggle early on but they will grow if they can get through Connacht. Well capable of taking out any team but also could lose to Mayo or Rossies in Connacht final (apologies Sligo).

Donegal or Tyrone could topple any team although Donegal are very unproven albeit talented. Also Armagh & Monaghan could throw a spanner in up North but would be unlikely to trouble the big boys.

Could Cork do anything??? I'd say on their day but unlikely to do it a few times.

Kildare and Meath will be (or should be) a big force in the future but not this year.

Semi finals Kerry v Galway; Dublin v Donegal

Give it a lash after that"
That's my choice for the 4 too.

I'm going with a Dublin Kerry final. Hopefully Kerry would come through that but I'd say Dublin are favourites.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3121 - 29/06/2020 15:53:35    2282257

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Definitely pointless for anyone in Donegal thinking about outside of Ulster when Ulster now becomes an even bigger minefield than normal. There are easier provinces for sure, we just have to peak 5 times!

Glad to see no Super 8, I hope it's the death knell for it, a clumsily arranged system with player welfare at the bottom of the list. Dublin and Kerry are now very clear favourites in this new system. But that's the bottom line, whenever wins every game deserves an All Ireland

Donegal_abroad (Donegal) - Posts: 896 - 29/06/2020 15:56:24    2282258

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "I understand where your coming from. Because Kerry are the aristrocrats of football there is always a tendancy to play down their achievements. It's kind of like that Kerry are never involved in classic matches unless they are beaten. People underestimate Kerry beating Cork only because they most often do it. Cork have a huge football playing population.
I disagree with you a bit about the Leinster championship down the years though.
In living memory Dublin did not always dominate Leinster like they have been for the last 15 years. Meath made the breakthrough in 1939. Between then and when this current period of Dublin dominance in Leinster started (1939-2005- 66 seasons) Meath won 18 Leinster's and 7 all Ireland's.
In the same time frame Offaly won 10 Leinsters and 3 All Ireland's.
In that time Dublin won 23 Leinster's and 8 All Irelands."
Appreciate that reply. In fairness I never said they always dominated like they do now, of course they didn't, but at the same time the stats do not support the popular narrative of an uber competitive province where anyone could win it any given year, Dublin 58, Meath 20, Kildare 13, Offaly 10.

Even before Dublin completely tore up the competition in 2005 they were far and away the most successful team in the province winning nearly half the titles up to that point and more than their three nearest rivals combined, yet people continually poke fun at Munster (usually in order to throw a dig at Kerry).

Meath mainly were a good match for the Dubs for quite a while which I did acknowledge in my post, and that's the only reason there is any respectability at all associated with the competition. Ironically Cork have won Munster nearly twice as often as Meath have won Leinster. Sadly Meath have slipped badly since their last final appearance nearly twenty years ago but look to be building again. Getting to the Super 8's last year and Div 1 this year is a step in the right direction.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 1961 - 29/06/2020 16:14:08    2282263

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Replying To Donegal_abroad:  "Definitely pointless for anyone in Donegal thinking about outside of Ulster when Ulster now becomes an even bigger minefield than normal. There are easier provinces for sure, we just have to peak 5 times!

Glad to see no Super 8, I hope it's the death knell for it, a clumsily arranged system with player welfare at the bottom of the list. Dublin and Kerry are now very clear favourites in this new system. But that's the bottom line, whenever wins every game deserves an All Ireland"
Agree. Tyrone will be faves for the game vs us.
I really enjoyed the super 8. Wouldn't mind it staying !

TheRock2121 (Donegal) - Posts: 561 - 29/06/2020 16:25:21    2282264

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