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Sean Boylan Vs Jim Gavin - Who Is The Greatest?

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Very well written articulate post. I don't agree with it much however.

There is a difference in having a defensive system and playing a blanket defence. 15 men behind the ball for the majority of the game is different to having corner forwards covering. Dublin have hybrid players, players who can play across the lines, both offensively and decisively. We have very offensive defenders, McCaffery, Murch, McCarthy, Cooper, Philly. It underlines my point in regard to the collective unit, creating space and movement teams can't cope with.

Look at last years finals, the Dublin half back line tore Kerry to shreds, covered by the half forwards and enabled by the gaps created by Jack Barry marking Fenton and Fenton moving him out of the central channel. Tactically Kerry were beaten by Fenton and the space he created for the half back line, I always smile when I hear how well Barry does in Fenton. Is there a more attacking back line then Dublin's, I think not or contributed so much in offensive play in big games.

I would also disagree on Dublin being boring, I've said this before but much of the Championship in a labor love, it's not a competition it's a turkey shoot, it's pointless and past it's sell by date, the players look bored, play in third gear and fans are waiting for the real stuff to start and hope for a competition sometime in August. We are the biggest game for everyone, everyone isn't the biggest game for us.

I'd agree with you to an extent, Dublin were risk adverse increasingly so in Gavin's last two years, but I do think I that was the product of the blanket, as every team started to spoil, holding the ball, working high percentage shots and guarding against the counter, became the only way to beat the blanket. I go back though to making a game being a 50/50 proposition - teams never opened up and went for Dublin. You mention the Leinster final last year, Meath didn't score until the end of the first half because all their men where in their own half. The semi Vs Tyrone 17, when they didn't know what to do when a Dublin wouldn't gift them pocession was an embarrassment. Kerrys blanket hanging on for dear life against 14 raging Dublin players in the first game they couldn't contain, Dublin 6 points ahead confidently knocking ball in front of the Kerry blanket with ten mins to go, at least come out and try and play and not allow a five in a row - no.

I suppose in many ways it's great compliment, there hasn't been another team, that other teams have feared and tried every game just to spoil. Mayo to be fair to them went down fighting. Since then the opposition need to ask themselves deep questions. It was a tad bit more expansive and opposition teams were that bit more open up to maybe 16 it changed after that I think, Dublin were breathtaking offensively before I think games involving Dublin became about the blanket dynamic after the 16 final. Why was this the case, because teams knew going head to head they would be pummelled.

As for Mavericks, jeepers that's mad, Dermo, Jack, Alan, Cluxton, Macker, Crazy Horse, Murch the little scamp, they all have their own cults up here. But I can understand people from other counties, we're outstandingly successful, we're still here and have dominated for so long, I can understand most of the country having Dublin fatiuqe and wanting to fire shots, or balm their insecurities.

It's natural and understandable."
There is a contradiction in your post there, Kerry played a blanket yet Barry's role on Fenton created all this space in the half back line? That makes no sense at all. Either Kerry played a blanket or they didn't, but both your claims above cannot be true together.

Kerry made the fatal mistake of not watching McCaffery adequately the first day and were too adventurous if anything. They fell back towards the end, at least partly due to pure exhaustion, the body language of the Kerry players is all you need to see to confirm that, the energy was just not there. As I said above their conditioning is an issue they must address because they are a bit off Dublin for now.

I can certainly acknowledge that they did play more conservatively the second day which really surprised me I must say. If rumours are to be believed the management team were not all fully on board with this and it was one of the issues that ultimately led to Donies departure but who know the whole story. I don't think Kerry will play like that again under Keane in any case.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 1904 - 23/05/2020 10:03:47    2279040

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Replying To MesAmis:  "What would you know about it Green and Red?

Belmullet to Croker is only about half an hour or so!"
In fairness I'm from Ballyhaunis, close to Roscommon border, train direct to Heuston. P
robably take as long to get to Dublin now as to Belmullet. I know well it's a long trek from Kerry to Dublin, even longer time before the motorway but I think 9 to 10 hours is exaggerated. Got me thinking about my own childhood travels to Croker, pre-motorway, stopping in Harrys in Kinnegad, in Leixlip and Maynooth. Motorways are great for cutting travel time but you miss out on some great towns from the slower journey.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 5861 - 23/05/2020 11:04:50    2279045

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Very well written articulate post. I don't agree with it much however.

There is a difference in having a defensive system and playing a blanket defence. 15 men behind the ball for the majority of the game is different to having corner forwards covering. Dublin have hybrid players, players who can play across the lines, both offensively and decisively. We have very offensive defenders, McCaffery, Murch, McCarthy, Cooper, Philly. It underlines my point in regard to the collective unit, creating space and movement teams can't cope with.

Look at last years finals, the Dublin half back line tore Kerry to shreds, covered by the half forwards and enabled by the gaps created by Jack Barry marking Fenton and Fenton moving him out of the central channel. Tactically Kerry were beaten by Fenton and the space he created for the half back line, I always smile when I hear how well Barry does in Fenton. Is there a more attacking back line then Dublin's, I think not or contributed so much in offensive play in big games.

I would also disagree on Dublin being boring, I've said this before but much of the Championship in a labor love, it's not a competition it's a turkey shoot, it's pointless and past it's sell by date, the players look bored, play in third gear and fans are waiting for the real stuff to start and hope for a competition sometime in August. We are the biggest game for everyone, everyone isn't the biggest game for us.

I'd agree with you to an extent, Dublin were risk adverse increasingly so in Gavin's last two years, but I do think I that was the product of the blanket, as every team started to spoil, holding the ball, working high percentage shots and guarding against the counter, became the only way to beat the blanket. I go back though to making a game being a 50/50 proposition - teams never opened up and went for Dublin. You mention the Leinster final last year, Meath didn't score until the end of the first half because all their men where in their own half. The semi Vs Tyrone 17, when they didn't know what to do when a Dublin wouldn't gift them pocession was an embarrassment. Kerrys blanket hanging on for dear life against 14 raging Dublin players in the first game they couldn't contain, Dublin 6 points ahead confidently knocking ball in front of the Kerry blanket with ten mins to go, at least come out and try and play and not allow a five in a row - no.

I suppose in many ways it's great compliment, there hasn't been another team, that other teams have feared and tried every game just to spoil. Mayo to be fair to them went down fighting. Since then the opposition need to ask themselves deep questions. It was a tad bit more expansive and opposition teams were that bit more open up to maybe 16 it changed after that I think, Dublin were breathtaking offensively before I think games involving Dublin became about the blanket dynamic after the 16 final. Why was this the case, because teams knew going head to head they would be pummelled.

As for Mavericks, jeepers that's mad, Dermo, Jack, Alan, Cluxton, Macker, Crazy Horse, Murch the little scamp, they all have their own cults up here. But I can understand people from other counties, we're outstandingly successful, we're still here and have dominated for so long, I can understand most of the country having Dublin fatiuqe and wanting to fire shots, or balm their insecurities.

It's natural and understandable."
Whatever about Dublin fatigue, your good self reached saturation point years ago.
Still your mind numbing essays returning on here and least signals we must be winning the old war on Covid, eh doc??

As a wider point it's good to see that after the hype of the 5 in a row has settled down, Dublin's success is now being seen for what it is by the wider GAA world.
This, * my Dublin friends is an asterisk. You'll spend the rest of your lives getting acquainted with it :D

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 5700 - 23/05/2020 12:11:48    2279050

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "Ah sure it's easy stay calm when you know you'll have all your big games at home and you have your team drilled to the last to deal with every scenario,

Jim knew the hometown reffs will give his team the benifit of the doubt.

Jim could stay calm knowing his rivals were likely to lose once in a generation players to Oz, Gavin never had to worry about trying to fundraise like Jim McGuinness and others had to for their teams.

Gavin also had massive backroom team support so it was easy for him to remain calm, they had the massive funds to have experts to support the team in every way possible."
'and you have your team drilled to the last to deal with every scenario'
Fair play to ya for admitting it no other manager had their team as well drilled as he had

achara (Monaghan) - Posts: 445 - 23/05/2020 13:02:31    2279052

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "In fairness I'm from Ballyhaunis, close to Roscommon border, train direct to Heuston. P
robably take as long to get to Dublin now as to Belmullet. I know well it's a long trek from Kerry to Dublin, even longer time before the motorway but I think 9 to 10 hours is exaggerated. Got me thinking about my own childhood travels to Croker, pre-motorway, stopping in Harrys in Kinnegad, in Leixlip and Maynooth. Motorways are great for cutting travel time but you miss out on some great towns from the slower journey."
The price of progress though isn't it?

I've only really started driving down the country during/post the major motorway construction so I've always had it pretty good!

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13085 - 23/05/2020 15:25:02    2279064

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Replying To Horsebox77:  "Neither, Micko by a county mile, back in his day there was no entourage no dietitians, stats man etc.... just him, two selectors on paper but where he had a deciding vote .

It's just embarrassing from a Gaa hierarchy point of view that his achievements were never acknowledged and he was repeatedly passed over for the Ireland post at compromise rules level, Boylan, Johnno Keeffe, Early etc wouldn't lace micko''s boots and the Waterville man has prob forgotten more than most of them would ever know.

It's a pity he wasn't afforded that respect"
And what entourage, dieticians or stats man do you think Boylan had? How many selectors fo you think Boylan had?

Richieq (Meath) - Posts: 3583 - 23/05/2020 16:21:16    2279068

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Micko in my opinion is the best manager in my time . Sean Boylan , Micky Harte and John O Mahony, are all great managers . So too is Jim Gavin but I wouldn't feel he is as good as Micko. Micko's achievements are superior .

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5126 - 23/05/2020 17:23:53    2279073

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Replying To Richieq:  "And what entourage, dieticians or stats man do you think Boylan had? How many selectors fo you think Boylan had?"
Boylan didn't need them. He was a great teacher and brought everybody on board. You can hear it when he's being interviewed 'Are you with me'? Checking to ensure that he's understood before he continues. I heard stories about Séan Boylan and his Meath squad. One lad, was a good minor, not quite giving the commitment because of his college workload was asked to decide between football and college, he picked college. I asked about the training, it must be ferocious hitting. Was told it was hard hitting enough but Boylan wouldn't tolerate anyone lying down feigning injury in training, they'd be out the gate. That's not putting him above Dwyer or Gavin, they probably have similar stores, behind the scenes, Wooly Parkinson makes good mileage of his Dwyer anecdotes. For achievements it has to be Dwyer, not just Kerry, Kildare, Laois too, revived Wicklow's fortunes too. But I just think Boylan is a class act.

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They've a statue of Séan Boylan outside Dunboyne Castle Hotel, because he's a living legend.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 5861 - 23/05/2020 21:19:28    2279089

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Replying To TheHermit:  "Whatever about Dublin fatigue, your good self reached saturation point years ago.
Still your mind numbing essays returning on here and least signals we must be winning the old war on Covid, eh doc??

As a wider point it's good to see that after the hype of the 5 in a row has settled down, Dublin's success is now being seen for what it is by the wider GAA world.
This, * my Dublin friends is an asterisk. You'll spend the rest of your lives getting acquainted with it :D"
The bitterness off that post. Poor Kerry lads will never get over the 5 in a row haha!

gaelicgab (USA) - Posts: 870 - 24/05/2020 00:01:24    2279094

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Both class, Boylan for me though as he reminds me of bishop Brennan :)

Kiwiq (Kildare) - Posts: 36 - 25/05/2020 22:44:01    2279192

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Replying To TheHermit:  "Whatever about Dublin fatigue, your good self reached saturation point years ago.
Still your mind numbing essays returning on here and least signals we must be winning the old war on Covid, eh doc??

As a wider point it's good to see that after the hype of the 5 in a row has settled down, Dublin's success is now being seen for what it is by the wider GAA world.
This, * my Dublin friends is an asterisk. You'll spend the rest of your lives getting acquainted with it :D"
This my Kerry friend is the number 5. You'll spend the rest of your life getting acquainted with it :D

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4247 - 25/05/2020 23:55:25    2279194

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Jesus this one got under peoples skins!

Gavin for me, 5 in a row seals that. Also his work building a lot of the players from underage. He then left the squad in a great place for the future. I'm 'only' 30 so don't remember Micko with Kerry, and was pretty young when Boylan was with Meath. I know the thread is Gavin or Boylan so I'll say Jim Gavin was the greatest but heres my top 3 in order:
1) Jim Gavin
2) Micko
3) Sean Boylan

LSDEindhoven (Wicklow) - Posts: 68 - 26/05/2020 00:12:03    2279196

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Replying To Joxer:  "This my Kerry friend is the number 5. You'll spend the rest of your life getting acquainted with it :D"
Touché! High FIVE for that one :)

Jackeen (Dublin) - Posts: 3973 - 26/05/2020 08:58:31    2279202

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Replying To Joxer:  "This my Kerry friend is the number 5. You'll spend the rest of your life getting acquainted with it :D"
This is the number 37. You're still chasing it .

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5126 - 26/05/2020 12:24:18    2279230

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Replying To LSDEindhoven:  "Jesus this one got under peoples skins!

Gavin for me, 5 in a row seals that. Also his work building a lot of the players from underage. He then left the squad in a great place for the future. I'm 'only' 30 so don't remember Micko with Kerry, and was pretty young when Boylan was with Meath. I know the thread is Gavin or Boylan so I'll say Jim Gavin was the greatest but heres my top 3 in order:
1) Jim Gavin
2) Micko
3) Sean Boylan"
Anything with the Dubs gets under people's skin but I bet the OPer knew that when he wrote this

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1000 - 26/05/2020 12:41:10    2279232

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Replying To Greengrass:  "This is the number 37. You're still chasing it ."
We discount titles won on the back of 3 wins Ollie.

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4247 - 26/05/2020 14:02:21    2279242

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Saw recently where 22 of Sean Boylan's players had received all-stars while there were little or no all-stars in Meath in the ten years before Boylan and the fifteen years since. Only Stephen Bray comes to mind since. Would be interested to know Gavin's record here since he inherited a great squad from Gilroy.

winatallcost (Meath) - Posts: 197 - 31/05/2020 21:00:08    2279616

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Replying To Greengrass:  "Micko in my opinion is the best manager in my time . Sean Boylan , Micky Harte and John O Mahony, are all great managers . So too is Jim Gavin but I wouldn't feel he is as good as Micko. Micko's achievements are superior ."
Micko managed Kerry for 15 years (1974-1989). He won 8 All-Ireland's during that time.Jim Gavin's management of Dublin was far shorter.He managed them from 2012-2019 and won 6 All-Ireland's.Gavin chose to stand down when there were probably more All Ireland's to be won with that Dublin team.When Micko quit, Kerry were gone and they didn't win another All -Ireland for 8 years after he left.

endgame (Roscommon) - Posts: 1243 - 31/05/2020 21:36:17    2279617

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Sean boylan. Mickey harte. Micko ,john o Mahoney.

V jim gavin

All greats but jim took an all ireland winning team that Gilroy built and won more and more and made them twice the team they were under Gilroy.

But all the other named managers created successful teams and won multiple all Ireland's

But micko has to be the clear winner though.
Kerry,kildare,laois success wherever he went.

ulsterrules (Donegal) - Posts: 168 - 01/06/2020 08:43:54    2279629

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Replying To Joxer:  "We discount titles won on the back of 3 wins Ollie."
Discount, what an interesting word to choose.
Certainty all that unprecedented Dublin success lately has not come cheap.
How much does it work out at exactly, let's see what is it, 20-22 million given to Dublin divided by those 7 = c. 3 million a Sam? Not counting what they get themselves in sponsorship etc.
Not cheap in money terms that's for sure.
But in so many other ways, they'll be judged cheap enough ;)

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 5700 - 01/06/2020 22:44:38    2279687

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