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Sean Boylan Vs Jim Gavin - Who Is The Greatest?

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Bit of a difference between resources made available to them. I doubt if Sean Boylans budget went into millions

Ashrules (Dublin) - Posts: 336 - 22/05/2020 12:16:23    2278977

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Would have to go with Boylan. Like Cody he built probably 3 or 4 teams over his time as manager. Galvin was great to do what he did but had a great team and only won with that one great team. 5 in a row speaks for itself.

gatha (Kilkenny) - Posts: 133 - 22/05/2020 14:43:15    2278988

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Laughing here, definition of off the cuff football, 15 men behind the ball.

Teams are afraid of their lives to open up against Dublin.

Dublin were a level ahead of all the chasing pack, Kerry, Tyrone, Mayo, Galway, Donegal, Mongahan etc all came up to Croke Park put a defensive shield in place and Dublin asked to break them down. I think the teams that were in the pack were very evenly matched. Only Mayo got close to us really. Donegal were deserved winners in 2014 and that became the archetypal way to play Dublin that has continued to now, it only worked once.

Games are a two way process really, when you play blanket stuff your proposing a style of a game. All Dublin can do is squeeze the pips. Take this years final, in the end it was easy, 6 points ahead, nonchalantly knocking the ball in front of a Kerry blanket defense. Begging them to come meet you in open play, didnt happen and so the five in a row was surrendered. Dublin had to develop and did develop a skill set around the blanket. But Dublin can and have play the game anywhere.

I think their hasnt ever been a more creative and offensive team, i havnt seen a better one, that is annoying for others i suspect.

Dublin are different, some counties rely in the main of a key player, Clifford, Murphy etc etc, better counties two or three. The focus of the game is all around these players and letting them the ball, Clifford and Kerry are a perfect example, which is why i dont think they will be a great thing when they eventually dsoo win the All Ireland.

Dublin are different, when you look at star players over these years, Brogans, Connollys, Flynns Kilkennys, Mannions, Rocks, King Cons. Other counties are happy to play through their one or two cult players. Its not about the player its about the collective. That makes Dublin collectively different offensively to any side ever and produced a beautiful brand of football, whee space just appears. Why? because making the gap is as good a goal. Look at the scoring charts, bring your best and it doesn't compare.

I was looking at the Chicago Bulls thing on Netflix the other day and when their coach came in, the empahiss became less on Jordan on the ball and more on the collective and the method achieving that as a unit, space, motion, combinations of both. That is exactly what Dublin have did. Im not sure Dessie will go down that route, but Dublin impact on the evolution of the game and attacking play has been revolutionary. Other counties couldn't keep up or had the players to. The result was essentially the mass panic, blanket defense and hope for counter. The only team ive seen who came to Dublin and opened up were Cork last year fair play to them. Ive left grounds, being dissapointed thinking counties were better then they were, but coming up and changing their way and style of playing to play Dublin and the inevitable happens.

That is one of the differences that saw Dublin become the greatest Gaelic team of all time. There isnt a team in GAA i look at think the were more creative and expansive then Dublin really."
Well Dr Zhivago, il address a couple of the points you made here,

Number 1 in nearly every sport in the world you will see the team that's travelling to play another team on their home patch adapt a defensive setup ( to try and quiten the home fans and get in the heads of the opposition) and then they play a counter attacking game, you would know this if ye ever had to go and play a meaningful game outside of Croker (and I don't mean a 1st round leinster or dead rubber super 8 game) how easy was it for Jim gavin knowing this and being able to plan accordingly.

Number 2 you say there hasn't been a more creative or attacking team then dublin, well you've shown yourself up there with that comment typical of a fan who only started following the game in 2011, all dublins games look the very same they all melt into 1. You yourself didn't remember jonny Cooper and Kilkenny being on the dublin team in in 2012 you said that yourself only a page back and you had to be correct by a couple of your own posters I was scarlett for you.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 11422 - 22/05/2020 14:46:25    2278989

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Laughing here, definition of off the cuff football, 15 men behind the ball.

Teams are afraid of their lives to open up against Dublin.

Dublin were a level ahead of all the chasing pack, Kerry, Tyrone, Mayo, Galway, Donegal, Mongahan etc all came up to Croke Park put a defensive shield in place and Dublin asked to break them down. I think the teams that were in the pack were very evenly matched. Only Mayo got close to us really. Donegal were deserved winners in 2014 and that became the archetypal way to play Dublin that has continued to now, it only worked once.

Games are a two way process really, when you play blanket stuff your proposing a style of a game. All Dublin can do is squeeze the pips. Take this years final, in the end it was easy, 6 points ahead, nonchalantly knocking the ball in front of a Kerry blanket defense. Begging them to come meet you in open play, didnt happen and so the five in a row was surrendered. Dublin had to develop and did develop a skill set around the blanket. But Dublin can and have play the game anywhere.

I think their hasnt ever been a more creative and offensive team, i havnt seen a better one, that is annoying for others i suspect.

Dublin are different, some counties rely in the main of a key player, Clifford, Murphy etc etc, better counties two or three. The focus of the game is all around these players and letting them the ball, Clifford and Kerry are a perfect example, which is why i dont think they will be a great thing when they eventually dsoo win the All Ireland.

Dublin are different, when you look at star players over these years, Brogans, Connollys, Flynns Kilkennys, Mannions, Rocks, King Cons. Other counties are happy to play through their one or two cult players. Its not about the player its about the collective. That makes Dublin collectively different offensively to any side ever and produced a beautiful brand of football, whee space just appears. Why? because making the gap is as good a goal. Look at the scoring charts, bring your best and it doesn't compare.

I was looking at the Chicago Bulls thing on Netflix the other day and when their coach came in, the empahiss became less on Jordan on the ball and more on the collective and the method achieving that as a unit, space, motion, combinations of both. That is exactly what Dublin have did. Im not sure Dessie will go down that route, but Dublin impact on the evolution of the game and attacking play has been revolutionary. Other counties couldn't keep up or had the players to. The result was essentially the mass panic, blanket defense and hope for counter. The only team ive seen who came to Dublin and opened up were Cork last year fair play to them. Ive left grounds, being dissapointed thinking counties were better then they were, but coming up and changing their way and style of playing to play Dublin and the inevitable happens.

That is one of the differences that saw Dublin become the greatest Gaelic team of all time. There isnt a team in GAA i look at think the were more creative and expansive then Dublin really."
I should probably know better than to reply to this with a counter argument. ill just come across a bitter Meath man.
The truth is I have the height of respect for this Dublin team and everything they have achieved, the have a mental toughness and never say die attitude that is incredible and admirable. When the got the draw in last years all Ireland while down top 14 I honestly found a new level of admiration for them.
I don't see why dubs would care if they aren't found the most exciting team ever or even viewed as pragmatic, they've just won 5 in a row. Also many teams in many sports have became great teams without playing an inventive or spectacularly exciting style and that doesn't make them any less impressive.

Personally even with all the respect I have for this Dublin team, I don't find them exciting to watch. They are all about the system, everyone knows the plan and sticks to it. They don't have a dynamic chemistry that would leave you in awe watching them. They stick with their system religiously and find a way to win games. Again not a bad thing.
They have no real mavericks or charisma which obviously to neutrals makes them seem cold and robotic. (Possibly the Dublin team of the noughties were too much heart on the sleeve merchants and that has been binned).
Last year when they played meath in croke park and embarrassed us, in the 1st 10 minutes they kicked 3 balls into their full forward line, meaths full back line won each ball. For the remainder of the game they kicked little to no 30+ yard balls into their forwards, everything went through the hands - eliminated any need for risk (even though their was zero risk of losing the game).

Dublin are also as defensive as any team, again dubs will go off the walls at this and claim its just countering other teams. The reality is after Donegal bet Dublin in 2014, the gung-ho football died and Dublin made sure they would always mind the house and be defensively sound.
When Dublin don't have the ball everyone gets behind the ball. Even in that game against meath last year, meath always kept 1 man inside while the dubs brought everyone into their own half when they lost the ball. Again theres nothing wrong or immoral about this, just pure pragmatism. but the narrative that this Dublin team are some swashbuckling, gung-ho saviours of gaelic football is nonsense.
They are one of if not the best gaelic football team of all time, but they are as cynical and defensive as any other top team. They have incredible players who have incredible skills. However they play no risk, safety first win at all costs football. and that in no way takes away from their success.

Meathmaverick (Meath) - Posts: 93 - 22/05/2020 17:32:19    2278994

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Eamonn Fitzmaurice over both of them!

summerof09 (Meath) - Posts: 237 - 22/05/2020 18:00:27    2278998

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Replying To Meathmaverick:  "I should probably know better than to reply to this with a counter argument. ill just come across a bitter Meath man.
The truth is I have the height of respect for this Dublin team and everything they have achieved, the have a mental toughness and never say die attitude that is incredible and admirable. When the got the draw in last years all Ireland while down top 14 I honestly found a new level of admiration for them.
I don't see why dubs would care if they aren't found the most exciting team ever or even viewed as pragmatic, they've just won 5 in a row. Also many teams in many sports have became great teams without playing an inventive or spectacularly exciting style and that doesn't make them any less impressive.

Personally even with all the respect I have for this Dublin team, I don't find them exciting to watch. They are all about the system, everyone knows the plan and sticks to it. They don't have a dynamic chemistry that would leave you in awe watching them. They stick with their system religiously and find a way to win games. Again not a bad thing.
They have no real mavericks or charisma which obviously to neutrals makes them seem cold and robotic. (Possibly the Dublin team of the noughties were too much heart on the sleeve merchants and that has been binned).
Last year when they played meath in croke park and embarrassed us, in the 1st 10 minutes they kicked 3 balls into their full forward line, meaths full back line won each ball. For the remainder of the game they kicked little to no 30+ yard balls into their forwards, everything went through the hands - eliminated any need for risk (even though their was zero risk of losing the game).

Dublin are also as defensive as any team, again dubs will go off the walls at this and claim its just countering other teams. The reality is after Donegal bet Dublin in 2014, the gung-ho football died and Dublin made sure they would always mind the house and be defensively sound.
When Dublin don't have the ball everyone gets behind the ball. Even in that game against meath last year, meath always kept 1 man inside while the dubs brought everyone into their own half when they lost the ball. Again theres nothing wrong or immoral about this, just pure pragmatism. but the narrative that this Dublin team are some swashbuckling, gung-ho saviours of gaelic football is nonsense.
They are one of if not the best gaelic football team of all time, but they are as cynical and defensive as any other top team. They have incredible players who have incredible skills. However they play no risk, safety first win at all costs football. and that in no way takes away from their success."
You are correct in that they are every bit as defensive as others, Scully and Howard are auxiliary wing backs and they always have a midfielder covering back too, it's a very solid setup that depends on numbers similar to other teams, they just have better players right now to implement it. I find it hilarious that there are some on here pontificating and looking down at others counties for playing this way, the lack of awareness is stunning.

Dublin also have absolutely awesome levels of conditioning. This is one area that my own county must improve dramatically on if the two finals last year are anything to go by. They could have won the first day out but their legs were just gone in the closing minutes even against 14 men.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 1904 - 22/05/2020 18:27:43    2279000

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Replying To summerof09:  "Eamonn Fitzmaurice over both of them!"
Ah, Fitzmaurice was a dacent aul skin and probably suffered a bit for being too loyal to the older bucks. O Dwyer did the same really and it probably cost Kerry long term.
Sean Boylan had some fine players at his disposal and managed them really well to get the best out of them. Players are a big part of success obviously but plenty of talent wasted to poor management skills.
Gavin had a huge job in this regard and must be commended for this alone. The Dubs squad kept evolving and Gavin had the cop and talent foresight to add a couple of lads to the pot each year to keep the edge in them. While Boylan did great work with Meath I don't thing he would have had the tactical nuance of Gavin maybe. Both great managers though.

catch22 (USA) - Posts: 1525 - 22/05/2020 18:40:46    2279002

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Replying To catch22:  "Ah, Fitzmaurice was a dacent aul skin and probably suffered a bit for being too loyal to the older bucks. O Dwyer did the same really and it probably cost Kerry long term.
Sean Boylan had some fine players at his disposal and managed them really well to get the best out of them. Players are a big part of success obviously but plenty of talent wasted to poor management skills.
Gavin had a huge job in this regard and must be commended for this alone. The Dubs squad kept evolving and Gavin had the cop and talent foresight to add a couple of lads to the pot each year to keep the edge in them. While Boylan did great work with Meath I don't thing he would have had the tactical nuance of Gavin maybe. Both great managers though."
gavin was also lucky that he could keep his players out of the grasp of the aussies unlike his challengers.

I wonder how he managed that.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 11422 - 22/05/2020 19:11:53    2279005

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I don't think he was the best ever but jim mcguinness made some difference to that donegal team and should be given a lot of credit.
Jim gavin is the best manager i've seen, fair enough he had the players but the calmness of him fed through the whole squad, they never panicked no matter what was thrown at them and the way they played was something else

achara (Monaghan) - Posts: 445 - 22/05/2020 20:01:03    2279009

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "gavin was also lucky that he could keep his players out of the grasp of the aussies unlike his challengers.

I wonder how he managed that."
Jays I dunno. You'd be better asking Tadgh that one boss.

catch22 (USA) - Posts: 1525 - 22/05/2020 20:46:12    2279013

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Replying To achara:  "I don't think he was the best ever but jim mcguinness made some difference to that donegal team and should be given a lot of credit.
Jim gavin is the best manager i've seen, fair enough he had the players but the calmness of him fed through the whole squad, they never panicked no matter what was thrown at them and the way they played was something else"
Ah sure it's easy stay calm when you know you'll have all your big games at home and you have your team drilled to the last to deal with every scenario,

Jim knew the hometown reffs will give his team the benifit of the doubt.

Jim could stay calm knowing his rivals were likely to lose once in a generation players to Oz, Gavin never had to worry about trying to fundraise like Jim McGuinness and others had to for their teams.

Gavin also had massive backroom team support so it was easy for him to remain calm, they had the massive funds to have experts to support the team in every way possible.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 11422 - 22/05/2020 21:18:13    2279016

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "Well Dr Zhivago, il address a couple of the points you made here,

Number 1 in nearly every sport in the world you will see the team that's travelling to play another team on their home patch adapt a defensive setup ( to try and quiten the home fans and get in the heads of the opposition) and then they play a counter attacking game, you would know this if ye ever had to go and play a meaningful game outside of Croker (and I don't mean a 1st round leinster or dead rubber super 8 game) how easy was it for Jim gavin knowing this and being able to plan accordingly.

Number 2 you say there hasn't been a more creative or attacking team then dublin, well you've shown yourself up there with that comment typical of a fan who only started following the game in 2011, all dublins games look the very same they all melt into 1. You yourself didn't remember jonny Cooper and Kilkenny being on the dublin team in in 2012 you said that yourself only a page back and you had to be correct by a couple of your own posters I was scarlett for you."
KingdomBoy I bet you were not complaining that the Dubs were playing their matches in Croker when they won One All Ireland between 1984 and 2010.

Ollie2 (Louth) - Posts: 163 - 22/05/2020 21:31:47    2279017

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Replying To catch22:  "Jays I dunno. You'd be better asking Tadgh that one boss."
Looks like the tiger King could be on his way home now the swans let him go.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 11422 - 22/05/2020 22:10:08    2279020

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Replying To Ollie2:  "KingdomBoy I bet you were not complaining that the Dubs were playing their matches in Croker when they won One All Ireland between 1984 and 2010."
Being honest Ollie I wasn't too happy about it, in those times it used to take us the bones of 9 to 10 hours to get to dublin from west kerry.

I was very happy when we played them in thurles in 2001, that's the way it should be, they should have to travel the same as the rest of us.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 11422 - 22/05/2020 22:18:44    2279021

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This Dublin team have done great. Other teams great eras are associated with managers but this team, I think will be remembered differently.
The big story of this era of Dublin football is not who was manager.
The people most responsible for this Dublin era are not Pat Gilroy or Jim Gavin, they are Sean Kelly (former GAA president) and Bertie Ahern who saw growth potential in Dublin and funded this potential. I say this as the extent of this growth would not have happened organically.
This has resulted, a number of years later, in increased numbers of players to pick from, players when they break into Dublin squad already superbly coached by their clubs since underage and county team structures from underage up who prepare and organise teams superbly.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 731 - 22/05/2020 23:03:21    2279023

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Replying To Meathmaverick:  "I should probably know better than to reply to this with a counter argument. ill just come across a bitter Meath man.
The truth is I have the height of respect for this Dublin team and everything they have achieved, the have a mental toughness and never say die attitude that is incredible and admirable. When the got the draw in last years all Ireland while down top 14 I honestly found a new level of admiration for them.
I don't see why dubs would care if they aren't found the most exciting team ever or even viewed as pragmatic, they've just won 5 in a row. Also many teams in many sports have became great teams without playing an inventive or spectacularly exciting style and that doesn't make them any less impressive.

Personally even with all the respect I have for this Dublin team, I don't find them exciting to watch. They are all about the system, everyone knows the plan and sticks to it. They don't have a dynamic chemistry that would leave you in awe watching them. They stick with their system religiously and find a way to win games. Again not a bad thing.
They have no real mavericks or charisma which obviously to neutrals makes them seem cold and robotic. (Possibly the Dublin team of the noughties were too much heart on the sleeve merchants and that has been binned).
Last year when they played meath in croke park and embarrassed us, in the 1st 10 minutes they kicked 3 balls into their full forward line, meaths full back line won each ball. For the remainder of the game they kicked little to no 30+ yard balls into their forwards, everything went through the hands - eliminated any need for risk (even though their was zero risk of losing the game).

Dublin are also as defensive as any team, again dubs will go off the walls at this and claim its just countering other teams. The reality is after Donegal bet Dublin in 2014, the gung-ho football died and Dublin made sure they would always mind the house and be defensively sound.
When Dublin don't have the ball everyone gets behind the ball. Even in that game against meath last year, meath always kept 1 man inside while the dubs brought everyone into their own half when they lost the ball. Again theres nothing wrong or immoral about this, just pure pragmatism. but the narrative that this Dublin team are some swashbuckling, gung-ho saviours of gaelic football is nonsense.
They are one of if not the best gaelic football team of all time, but they are as cynical and defensive as any other top team. They have incredible players who have incredible skills. However they play no risk, safety first win at all costs football. and that in no way takes away from their success."
Very well written articulate post. I don't agree with it much however.

There is a difference in having a defensive system and playing a blanket defence. 15 men behind the ball for the majority of the game is different to having corner forwards covering. Dublin have hybrid players, players who can play across the lines, both offensively and decisively. We have very offensive defenders, McCaffery, Murch, McCarthy, Cooper, Philly. It underlines my point in regard to the collective unit, creating space and movement teams can't cope with.

Look at last years finals, the Dublin half back line tore Kerry to shreds, covered by the half forwards and enabled by the gaps created by Jack Barry marking Fenton and Fenton moving him out of the central channel. Tactically Kerry were beaten by Fenton and the space he created for the half back line, I always smile when I hear how well Barry does in Fenton. Is there a more attacking back line then Dublin's, I think not or contributed so much in offensive play in big games.

I would also disagree on Dublin being boring, I've said this before but much of the Championship in a labor love, it's not a competition it's a turkey shoot, it's pointless and past it's sell by date, the players look bored, play in third gear and fans are waiting for the real stuff to start and hope for a competition sometime in August. We are the biggest game for everyone, everyone isn't the biggest game for us.

I'd agree with you to an extent, Dublin were risk adverse increasingly so in Gavin's last two years, but I do think I that was the product of the blanket, as every team started to spoil, holding the ball, working high percentage shots and guarding against the counter, became the only way to beat the blanket. I go back though to making a game being a 50/50 proposition - teams never opened up and went for Dublin. You mention the Leinster final last year, Meath didn't score until the end of the first half because all their men where in their own half. The semi Vs Tyrone 17, when they didn't know what to do when a Dublin wouldn't gift them pocession was an embarrassment. Kerrys blanket hanging on for dear life against 14 raging Dublin players in the first game they couldn't contain, Dublin 6 points ahead confidently knocking ball in front of the Kerry blanket with ten mins to go, at least come out and try and play and not allow a five in a row - no.

I suppose in many ways it's great compliment, there hasn't been another team, that other teams have feared and tried every game just to spoil. Mayo to be fair to them went down fighting. Since then the opposition need to ask themselves deep questions. It was a tad bit more expansive and opposition teams were that bit more open up to maybe 16 it changed after that I think, Dublin were breathtaking offensively before I think games involving Dublin became about the blanket dynamic after the 16 final. Why was this the case, because teams knew going head to head they would be pummelled.

As for Mavericks, jeepers that's mad, Dermo, Jack, Alan, Cluxton, Macker, Crazy Horse, Murch the little scamp, they all have their own cults up here. But I can understand people from other counties, we're outstandingly successful, we're still here and have dominated for so long, I can understand most of the country having Dublin fatiuqe and wanting to fire shots, or balm their insecurities.

It's natural and understandable.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 3480 - 22/05/2020 23:23:36    2279025

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "Being honest Ollie I wasn't too happy about it, in those times it used to take us the bones of 9 to 10 hours to get to dublin from west kerry.

I was very happy when we played them in thurles in 2001, that's the way it should be, they should have to travel the same as the rest of us."
Dublin play were they are told to play .

superbluedub (Dublin) - Posts: 2047 - 22/05/2020 23:25:50    2279026

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "Ah sure it's easy stay calm when you know you'll have all your big games at home and you have your team drilled to the last to deal with every scenario,

Jim knew the hometown reffs will give his team the benifit of the doubt.

Jim could stay calm knowing his rivals were likely to lose once in a generation players to Oz, Gavin never had to worry about trying to fundraise like Jim McGuinness and others had to for their teams.

Gavin also had massive backroom team support so it was easy for him to remain calm, they had the massive funds to have experts to support the team in every way possible."
Oh for heavens sake , please stop your childish whinging im scarlett for you. We get it you hate Dublin

superbluedub (Dublin) - Posts: 2047 - 22/05/2020 23:33:34    2279028

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "Being honest Ollie I wasn't too happy about it, in those times it used to take us the bones of 9 to 10 hours to get to dublin from west kerry.

I was very happy when we played them in thurles in 2001, that's the way it should be, they should have to travel the same as the rest of us."
Better not to drive via Sligo the next time.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 5861 - 23/05/2020 05:58:41    2279034

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "Better not to drive via Sligo the next time."
What would you know about it Green and Red?

Belmullet to Croker is only about half an hour or so!

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13085 - 23/05/2020 09:29:31    2279038

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