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Sean Boylan Vs Jim Gavin - Who Is The Greatest?

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Replying To MesAmis:  "Good post.

Ciarán Kilkenny and Johnny Cooper both made their championship debuts in 2012 under Gilroy though."
Would have lost money on Kilkenny - would have recollected he was a Jimbo special!

Johnny i remember, dont remember him playing in the Championship in 12, remember him in the league that year alright, him and Craig Dias were blooded if i remember right, which i probably dont..

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 3480 - 21/05/2020 17:53:19    2278931

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Would have lost money on Kilkenny - would have recollected he was a Jimbo special!

Johnny i remember, dont remember him playing in the Championship in 12, remember him in the league that year alright, him and Craig Dias were blooded if i remember right, which i probably dont.."
Pretty sure Cooper featured in the Leinster Campaign in 2012 off the bench.

Kilkenny kicked 3 points against Mayo in the 2012 All-Ireland Semi Final.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13085 - 21/05/2020 19:07:27    2278936

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I've great respect for Jim Gavin, his teams and the Dublin fans. I get accused of being against them and anti Dublin but I never was. My main argument was always about a fairer distribution of resources and helping the weaker counties. Glad to see the discussion hasn't descended into the usual stuff.

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9265 - 21/05/2020 19:17:22    2278937

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Replying To catch22:  "Wrong , you're only as good as how you manage the best players you have."
wrong .......its all about the quality of the panel the manager has....would jim gavin have won an all ireland with kildare or meath. he is a great manager no doubt but had the best squad of players dublin has ever had.

munsterchamps (Limerick) - Posts: 846 - 21/05/2020 20:34:13    2278938

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Replying To witnof:  "Best Managers for me in the last 50 years in Gaelic Football (and in no order) are :

Heffo / Harte / McGuinness / Boylan

Why? Built teams out of nothing and put in place tactics that changed the game. Harte you could argue built really from ground up (Minor, U21 and Senior)

As A Dub I hate putting Boylan in there but he did it with two differnt teams.

I would then rank Galvin followed by Dwyer. They both had the resources but Galvin's man management ability and the self confidence to let other people run their area with such autonomy takes guts. And completely with ego.

The Kerry team of the late '70s did not come out of nowhere as people make out. Kerry in '75 were coming off the back of having won the All-Ireland in '72, 4 National Leagues titles in a row and the U21 in '74. Still took some effort and skill to mould them to what they became.

So the top 4 are my top 4 because they built teams/systems from nowhere to win All-Irelands and changed the face of the game."
That Kerry team didn't win the All-Ireland in '72. They had last won in 1970 (Offaly 71 and 72, Cork 73) . So it was a longer spell between All-Ireland wins than what Gavin walked into.

And it is worth remembering that Micko was up against Heffo's Army, widely regarded as the best Dublin team of all-time before the current team emerged. It could be argued that Gavin hasn't faced the same caliber in terms of counties producing all-time great teams during this era (I know that isn't Dublin's fault), apart from Donegal, who ironically are the only team to beat Dublin under Gavin. And more than likely Monaghan, who have no tradition of winning All-Irelands anyway. When Kerry beat Mayo in two All-Irelands in the 00s there was the caveat of it being "only Mayo"- Dublin have beaten them in three AI finals this era. Micko also had a great Offaly side snapping at their heels before '82.

So I would put Boylan ahead of Gavin solely on the quality of the opposition he faced. That rivalry with Cork is one of the all-time great ones, and that Cork team would be regarded as the best they ever produced (only one to win back-to-back titles, and appeared in four finals in a row if I am not mistaken). I know I am contradicting myself now because Meath also beat Mayo to win an AI, but the overall competitiveness of the 90s was on a different scale to today, between the re-emergence of Ulster and Galway, and the bould Micko rattling a few cages with Kildare too. Straight knock-out too so no safety blanket of blooding young lads.

Dublin's recent success should always have an asterisk next to it given their financial clout, and the fact that Leinster is at an all-time low in terms of competitiveness.

beano (Wexford) - Posts: 560 - 21/05/2020 20:52:50    2278939

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Replying To munsterchamps:  "wrong .......its all about the quality of the panel the manager has....would jim gavin have won an all ireland with kildare or meath. he is a great manager no doubt but had the best squad of players dublin has ever had."
Nobody would win all Ireland's with the current Meath or Kildare panels to be fair. All anybody can do is make the most of what they have, if you don't have the players there is always going to be a ceiling on what you can achieve.

I think Dublin were entering a golden period this decade regardless of who was managing them. The players were there and any good manager would have had success. But to keep the team at such a high level for so long was incredibly impressive. He doesn't get the credit he deserves for that side of his management, keeping the players so highly motivated and focused after so much success. I didn't think they could do the five in a row, I was convinced they'd get caught at some point and they nearly were a couple of times but they always had that edge and resilience and downright refusal to be beaten. That is at least partly a reflection of the man on the sideline.

Boylan and Micko right up there with him of course. You could argue for any and all being the best depending on your point of view. Truly great football men all three.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 1904 - 21/05/2020 21:17:15    2278941

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Would have lost money on Kilkenny - would have recollected he was a Jimbo special!

Johnny i remember, dont remember him playing in the Championship in 12, remember him in the league that year alright, him and Craig Dias were blooded if i remember right, which i probably dont.."
More propaganda, if we were to listen to you then you'd have us all believe that Jim gavin didn't have every advantage known to man in (money population and home advantage)

Imagine if kerry had played offaly in the 1982 allireland final in killarney or all our finals of that time in killarney ? Well i think we'd have 6/7 in a row.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 11422 - 21/05/2020 21:23:18    2278944

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Replying To MesAmis:  "Pretty sure Cooper featured in the Leinster Campaign in 2012 off the bench.

Kilkenny kicked 3 points against Mayo in the 2012 All-Ireland Semi Final."
Glad we're not in the pub putting money down, I'd be getting the next few in. ;)

Remember Ciaran used to leave them frustratingly short when he first came through.

Weird I remember the league that year more then the Championship. Remember the Mayo celebrations after the semi, lesson learned, you never win anything by winning a semi. Amazing how often it happens. Donegal fell at that hurdle in 2014 to.

Weird that the two teams that beat us since 2011, never went on to win it in the same year.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 3480 - 21/05/2020 21:25:04    2278945

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "Nobody would win all Ireland's with the current Meath or Kildare panels to be fair. All anybody can do is make the most of what they have, if you don't have the players there is always going to be a ceiling on what you can achieve.

I think Dublin were entering a golden period this decade regardless of who was managing them. The players were there and any good manager would have had success. But to keep the team at such a high level for so long was incredibly impressive. He doesn't get the credit he deserves for that side of his management, keeping the players so highly motivated and focused after so much success. I didn't think they could do the five in a row, I was convinced they'd get caught at some point and they nearly were a couple of times but they always had that edge and resilience and downright refusal to be beaten. That is at least partly a reflection of the man on the sideline.

Boylan and Micko right up there with him of course. You could argue for any and all being the best depending on your point of view. Truly great football men all three."
Jim gavin had every advantage known to man Gerry, he never had to leave home to play a big game, he never had to worry about fundraising like the other teams managers had to, referees stationed in Dublin reffing their games.

These are all things that have to be taken into consideration when picking the greatest manager.

If mickos team or our team of the 00s played all our games at home then we'd have a couple of 5s or 6s to go with our minor and juniors 5s.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 11422 - 21/05/2020 21:52:04    2278948

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No team could close out big games consistently like Gavin's Dublin. If they were 3 points down with 10 minutes to go they'd be relentless and ruthless clawing back scores and preventing the opposition from scoring. If they were 3 points up with 10 minutes to go they'd play calmy and efficiently, more often than not Kilkenny would be the architect. The one he'd be guaranteed not to do was anything stupid, a calming influence on the pitch. They'd keep the ball, not making silly mistakes and take a score if it was on but focused on grinding out the win. I don't there's been a team before them as well drilled and focused, with a hatred of losing but not such a hatred that distracts from making mistakes, getting too heated and stop them from getting the result. A team you'd hate and respect in equal measures.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 5861 - 21/05/2020 21:54:01    2278949

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "No team could close out big games consistently like Gavin's Dublin. If they were 3 points down with 10 minutes to go they'd be relentless and ruthless clawing back scores and preventing the opposition from scoring. If they were 3 points up with 10 minutes to go they'd play calmy and efficiently, more often than not Kilkenny would be the architect. The one he'd be guaranteed not to do was anything stupid, a calming influence on the pitch. They'd keep the ball, not making silly mistakes and take a score if it was on but focused on grinding out the win. I don't there's been a team before them as well drilled and focused, with a hatred of losing but not such a hatred that distracts from making mistakes, getting too heated and stop them from getting the result. A team you'd hate and respect in equal measures."
What you've discribed is pure and utter boring football greenandred. They're a team of robots. nothing off the cuff just drilled football, no chances taken just going through the "process" over and over again.

Where is the excitement? When kerry play mayo or Tyrone play Donegal you don't know what's going to happen any team could win, a player could do something crazy or outrageous to win or lose the games.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 11422 - 21/05/2020 22:26:28    2278953

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That's like asking if a parish production of Dancing at Lughnasa is better than a multimillion movie production like Avatar or vice versa One is authentic & relatable and loved all the more for occasional performance flaws, the other manufactured, with incredible resources & to many, an admirable production, but nothing more.
Have to say I admired Boylan as a great GAA man & a great family man.

greysoil (Monaghan) - Posts: 780 - 21/05/2020 22:26:58    2278954

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "Jim gavin had every advantage known to man Gerry, he never had to leave home to play a big game, he never had to worry about fundraising like the other teams managers had to, referees stationed in Dublin reffing their games.

These are all things that have to be taken into consideration when picking the greatest manager.

If mickos team or our team of the 00s played all our games at home then we'd have a couple of 5s or 6s to go with our minor and juniors 5s."
Yes they have had multiple factors in their favour that have undoubtedly contributed to their success but even at that they were incredibly well managed. I think you have to give credit where it is due to Jim Gavin there. After they got beaten by Donegal in 2014 he really brought them to a new level.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 1904 - 21/05/2020 23:05:27    2278957

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "What you've discribed is pure and utter boring football greenandred. They're a team of robots. nothing off the cuff just drilled football, no chances taken just going through the "process" over and over again.

Where is the excitement? When kerry play mayo or Tyrone play Donegal you don't know what's going to happen any team could win, a player could do something crazy or outrageous to win or lose the games."
We tend to lose the biggest game. I'll be happy with a boring win sometime. Not true that Dublin don't play off the cuff either.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 5861 - 22/05/2020 00:26:51    2278959

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "What you've discribed is pure and utter boring football greenandred. They're a team of robots. nothing off the cuff just drilled football, no chances taken just going through the "process" over and over again.

Where is the excitement? When kerry play mayo or Tyrone play Donegal you don't know what's going to happen any team could win, a player could do something crazy or outrageous to win or lose the games."
I must go and lie down as we are in very strange times indeed. A Kerry fan defending Tyrone and Donegal before Dublin??? :). I actually agree with your point. Dublin while phenomenally successful do have a whiff of Stepford Wives about them. Cold, manufactured, boring to be honest, predictable and robot like there's no doubt about that. Dublin are a side loved and worshipped by their fans and the media who feed off their success. However to other fans around the country they are not exciting, attractive and you wouldn't pay into to watch them unless you supported them. They and their management set up weren't very likeable compared to Micko, Sean Boylan, Pete McGrath, McGuinness and Harte etc.

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9265 - 22/05/2020 00:59:16    2278960

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Boylan he took meath from nothing to be one of the great GAA sides created two teams with unbelievable mentality. I hated them as a kid as grew up on meath border but looking back now and watching the old footage makes me appreciate how good they were. They lay down for nobody made no apologies for it always showed up on the big days and set the template for a lot of counties to follow. Different era through. The Dubs under Gavin as close to a professional set up as any county in GAA history have properly utilised huge resources in dublin which they failed to do for years also.

seanie08 (Monaghan) - Posts: 1464 - 22/05/2020 06:18:24    2278962

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "We tend to lose the biggest game. I'll be happy with a boring win sometime. Not true that Dublin don't play off the cuff either."
Sorry greenandred iv seen nó evidence of them playing off the cuff, they have a well thought out plan for every situation which makes me wonder how much time do they have to practice all these scenarios and study other teams.

I know our boys and other country teams wouldnt have that time as working and travelling long distances to and from work would effect these lads preparations.

You could see it when teams rattled cluxtons kickouts there is a plan B and plan C, like you say when they're winning a game in the 60th minute on you'll have Kilkenny sprinting around his own 45 with the ball and sprinting towards cluxton palming off the ball taking the return.

I understand your frustration as a mayo supporter and like you say you wouldn't mind winning a boring 1 but you can't beat ameteur off the cuff football where anything can happen, when I think of dublin football I think German engineering vorspruck durch tecknic.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 11422 - 22/05/2020 09:09:05    2278964

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "Nobody would win all Ireland's with the current Meath or Kildare panels to be fair. All anybody can do is make the most of what they have, if you don't have the players there is always going to be a ceiling on what you can achieve.

I think Dublin were entering a golden period this decade regardless of who was managing them. The players were there and any good manager would have had success. But to keep the team at such a high level for so long was incredibly impressive. He doesn't get the credit he deserves for that side of his management, keeping the players so highly motivated and focused after so much success. I didn't think they could do the five in a row, I was convinced they'd get caught at some point and they nearly were a couple of times but they always had that edge and resilience and downright refusal to be beaten. That is at least partly a reflection of the man on the sideline.

Boylan and Micko right up there with him of course. You could argue for any and all being the best depending on your point of view. Truly great football men all three."
if its all down to the manager john kiely must be right up there so....first all ireland in 45 yrs and first league in 22 yrs. he is a great manager but you have to have the talent aswell.....limerick have a special bunch of players at the moment.

munsterchamps (Limerick) - Posts: 846 - 22/05/2020 09:12:46    2278965

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Laughing here, definition of off the cuff football, 15 men behind the ball.

Teams are afraid of their lives to open up against Dublin.

Dublin were a level ahead of all the chasing pack, Kerry, Tyrone, Mayo, Galway, Donegal, Mongahan etc all came up to Croke Park put a defensive shield in place and Dublin asked to break them down. I think the teams that were in the pack were very evenly matched. Only Mayo got close to us really. Donegal were deserved winners in 2014 and that became the archetypal way to play Dublin that has continued to now, it only worked once.

Games are a two way process really, when you play blanket stuff your proposing a style of a game. All Dublin can do is squeeze the pips. Take this years final, in the end it was easy, 6 points ahead, nonchalantly knocking the ball in front of a Kerry blanket defense. Begging them to come meet you in open play, didnt happen and so the five in a row was surrendered. Dublin had to develop and did develop a skill set around the blanket. But Dublin can and have play the game anywhere.

I think their hasnt ever been a more creative and offensive team, i havnt seen a better one, that is annoying for others i suspect.

Dublin are different, some counties rely in the main of a key player, Clifford, Murphy etc etc, better counties two or three. The focus of the game is all around these players and letting them the ball, Clifford and Kerry are a perfect example, which is why i dont think they will be a great thing when they eventually dsoo win the All Ireland.

Dublin are different, when you look at star players over these years, Brogans, Connollys, Flynns Kilkennys, Mannions, Rocks, King Cons. Other counties are happy to play through their one or two cult players. Its not about the player its about the collective. That makes Dublin collectively different offensively to any side ever and produced a beautiful brand of football, whee space just appears. Why? because making the gap is as good a goal. Look at the scoring charts, bring your best and it doesn't compare.

I was looking at the Chicago Bulls thing on Netflix the other day and when their coach came in, the empahiss became less on Jordan on the ball and more on the collective and the method achieving that as a unit, space, motion, combinations of both. That is exactly what Dublin have did. Im not sure Dessie will go down that route, but Dublin impact on the evolution of the game and attacking play has been revolutionary. Other counties couldn't keep up or had the players to. The result was essentially the mass panic, blanket defense and hope for counter. The only team ive seen who came to Dublin and opened up were Cork last year fair play to them. Ive left grounds, being dissapointed thinking counties were better then they were, but coming up and changing their way and style of playing to play Dublin and the inevitable happens.

That is one of the differences that saw Dublin become the greatest Gaelic team of all time. There isnt a team in GAA i look at think the were more creative and expansive then Dublin really.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 3480 - 22/05/2020 10:54:05    2278970

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Laughing here, definition of off the cuff football, 15 men behind the ball.

Teams are afraid of their lives to open up against Dublin.

Dublin were a level ahead of all the chasing pack, Kerry, Tyrone, Mayo, Galway, Donegal, Mongahan etc all came up to Croke Park put a defensive shield in place and Dublin asked to break them down. I think the teams that were in the pack were very evenly matched. Only Mayo got close to us really. Donegal were deserved winners in 2014 and that became the archetypal way to play Dublin that has continued to now, it only worked once.

Games are a two way process really, when you play blanket stuff your proposing a style of a game. All Dublin can do is squeeze the pips. Take this years final, in the end it was easy, 6 points ahead, nonchalantly knocking the ball in front of a Kerry blanket defense. Begging them to come meet you in open play, didnt happen and so the five in a row was surrendered. Dublin had to develop and did develop a skill set around the blanket. But Dublin can and have play the game anywhere.

I think their hasnt ever been a more creative and offensive team, i havnt seen a better one, that is annoying for others i suspect.

Dublin are different, some counties rely in the main of a key player, Clifford, Murphy etc etc, better counties two or three. The focus of the game is all around these players and letting them the ball, Clifford and Kerry are a perfect example, which is why i dont think they will be a great thing when they eventually dsoo win the All Ireland.

Dublin are different, when you look at star players over these years, Brogans, Connollys, Flynns Kilkennys, Mannions, Rocks, King Cons. Other counties are happy to play through their one or two cult players. Its not about the player its about the collective. That makes Dublin collectively different offensively to any side ever and produced a beautiful brand of football, whee space just appears. Why? because making the gap is as good a goal. Look at the scoring charts, bring your best and it doesn't compare.

I was looking at the Chicago Bulls thing on Netflix the other day and when their coach came in, the empahiss became less on Jordan on the ball and more on the collective and the method achieving that as a unit, space, motion, combinations of both. That is exactly what Dublin have did. Im not sure Dessie will go down that route, but Dublin impact on the evolution of the game and attacking play has been revolutionary. Other counties couldn't keep up or had the players to. The result was essentially the mass panic, blanket defense and hope for counter. The only team ive seen who came to Dublin and opened up were Cork last year fair play to them. Ive left grounds, being dissapointed thinking counties were better then they were, but coming up and changing their way and style of playing to play Dublin and the inevitable happens.

That is one of the differences that saw Dublin become the greatest Gaelic team of all time. There isnt a team in GAA i look at think the were more creative and expansive then Dublin really."
Just on your point about star players and how other counties generally rely on one (Clifford/Murphy), that is emphasising the fact that Dublin have had generational talent coming through all at the same time, backboned by a huge number of under-age players and enviable resources in every way imaginable.

I do understand that most successful teams have that element of luck in that the right players coming around at the right time, but never has it been more evident than with the current Dublin set-up.

They have every advantage going for them too: without even mentioning the disparity in money the receive that is the elephant in the room that most sympathisers tend to ignore. Relatively small geography compared to other counties, so its easier to adopt a 'professional' camp (meals delivered to players at work etc.). Its rare to see any Dublin player having to commute to work either, so again they have the luxury of being able to get a nap-in before training or go see their physio during lunch or whatever.

I'm not downplaying their achievements by the way, as I didn't think I would ever see a five-in-a-row after that Kilkenny side failed at the final hurdle, but there are so many socio-economic factors at play that it has to be taken with a pinch of salt. Transplant Gavin into the same dressing-room as Gilroy inherited and I don't think he'd have achieved any more than Pat did- put Gilroy in in from 2013 onwards, and I think the All-Ireland tally would be the same.

beano (Wexford) - Posts: 560 - 22/05/2020 11:45:03    2278974

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