National Forum

Is It Time To Bury Provincial Hurling Championships- At Senior Level

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Replying To omahant:  "To your earlier point - as I have inter group here, best to have KO of top 4 or 6 overall in lieu of 2 or 3 from each group- and former lessens dead rubbers too.
Would GAA or fans go for exclusive cross over inter group - that's unheard of too ?"
I don't see the point of American style cross over games in a group stage. If teams have to play teams outside their conference then why have conferences at all

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1106 - 30/01/2020 17:12:47    2263826

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Replying To Ej:  "Who wants to see the end of their provincial championship? The supporters of Limerick? Tipp? Clare? Cork? Waterford? Kilkenny? Dublin? Wexford?

Galway don't have a provincial championship of their own. They are the only realistic contender for an all Ireland outside of Munster and Leinster.

The league is and always has been a valuable testing ground for teams to experiment and blood new players and systems. My own county is a good example: we tried Kevin Foley as 'sweeper' and moved Shaun Murphy into the half backs. The league gave us the opportunity to see if it could work and to bed it in.

My issue with it is that it drags on for too long. After 5 games county panels and their team set up have been determined and by then everything is gearing towards the championship.

The provincial championship in my opinion works just fine. If last year is anything to go by, the best 2 teams in both provinces in 2019 got to their respective finals."
Yeah it is just fine.

I just think it could be better. The Provincial championships can actually be built into the wider All Ireland very easily if necessary.

Bedding in of players can be tested in championship too. Maybe against a weaker team at some point. Maybe as part of some rotation in the line up. There'd be 11 games, no one game is going to be the making or breaking of a season, there's room for a degree of trial and error.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3121 - 30/01/2020 17:37:20    2263829

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Yeah it is just fine.

I just think it could be better. The Provincial championships can actually be built into the wider All Ireland very easily if necessary.

Bedding in of players can be tested in championship too. Maybe against a weaker team at some point. Maybe as part of some rotation in the line up. There'd be 11 games, no one game is going to be the making or breaking of a season, there's room for a degree of trial and error."
The provincial championship is already integrated into the all Ireland. Just ask anyone from Galway, Carlow, Clare or Waterford

Ej (Wexford) - Posts: 352 - 30/01/2020 18:35:35    2263837

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Replying To Ej:  "The provincial championship is already integrated into the all Ireland. Just ask anyone from Galway, Carlow, Clare or Waterford"
Yes, you don't have to lose that. You can add games to that though.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3121 - 30/01/2020 19:21:01    2263850

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Yes, you don't have to lose that. You can add games to that though."
I personally don't see why you think we need to add more games to an already congested calendar

Ej (Wexford) - Posts: 352 - 30/01/2020 19:53:18    2263863

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Yes, you don't have to lose that. You can add games to that though."
There are enough games

Tadhgmacda (Limerick) - Posts: 99 - 30/01/2020 19:58:57    2263864

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Replying To Tadhgmacda:  "There are enough games"
Theres room for more games with better scheduling.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3121 - 30/01/2020 20:15:49    2263868

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It would be better to split emerging teams among the provinces. I'd ditch the provincial finals. The top placed team are the provincial champions and receive a bye to the semi-finals. The 2nd and 3rd placed teams go into the quarter-finals. The provincial champions have a two week break at most. The League should revert to the previous format. That gives the weaker teams competitive games and the stronger teams to blood new players against eachother. Most of the counties couldn't care less about developing hurling. That shows in their actions. There are few exceptions. Sligo comes to mind.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 30/01/2020 21:14:52    2263879

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "It would be better to split emerging teams among the provinces. I'd ditch the provincial finals. The top placed team are the provincial champions and receive a bye to the semi-finals. The 2nd and 3rd placed teams go into the quarter-finals. The provincial champions have a two week break at most. The League should revert to the previous format. That gives the weaker teams competitive games and the stronger teams to blood new players against eachother. Most of the counties couldn't care less about developing hurling. That shows in their actions. There are few exceptions. Sligo comes to mind."
Going only by this forum youde swear that the prov finals were some barely attended widely reviled nonsense rather than the truth which is they are huge well attended much loved events on the Irish sporting calender

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1106 - 30/01/2020 21:51:51    2263888

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Replying To Breezy:  "Going only by this forum youde swear that the prov finals were some barely attended widely reviled nonsense rather than the truth which is they are huge well attended much loved events on the Irish sporting calender"
Agreed, all any of these suggestions do is water down the quality of the championship. Leave it alone. It's working fine. All it needs is another week rest added in to ensure noone plays three weeks in a row.

Tadhgmacda (Limerick) - Posts: 99 - 30/01/2020 22:56:54    2263901

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Replying To Ej:  "How many game weeks will this take to complete?"
Max 12 matches req'd.
Teams guaranteed 8 matches via 8v8 (already includes Prov QFs, SFs, Final).
Max 4 KO rds from a 12-team KO.
Spread the 12 matches over the 26-week interval March-August.
Very manageable.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1826 - 30/01/2020 23:03:58    2263904

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For those of you who are wedded to traditional round robin groups (re-copied from page 7
earlier) - for AI SHC -
Make it 2 mixed groups of 6.
Put Muns 1,4,5 seeds and Lein 2,3,6 seeds in Group A (others to Group B, where Muns 6th could be a Lein team).

After 5-match round robin, the highest Muns and Lein team in BOTH groups play Prov Finals (or if you prefer, treat the 1,4 and 2,3 group pairings as Prov KO SFs as well to determine 4 Finalists).
Two Champs join top 3 from each group in AI KO QFs (most likely, Prov Champs get a bye to SFs instead, like now).

You get the best of both worlds - refreshed groups each year with the big Prov Final days retained.

Could do similar split Prov groups in football -
Group UL - Uls 1,4 with Lein 2,3;
Group LM - Lein 1,4 with Muns 2,3;
Group MC - Muns 1,4 with Conn 2,3;
Group CU - Conn 1,4 with Uls 2,3.

Add another 4 NFL highest-ranked teams added above to form 4 groups of 5.
Similar to hurling - have 4 Prov Finals - 4 Champs and each top 3 to AI KO 16 (likely less due to byes).
For fixture variety - group letters are reversed in EVEN yrs) - so Groups UC (Uls 1,4 with Conn 2,3), CM, ML and LU.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1826 - 30/01/2020 23:23:27    2263909

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Replying To Tadhgmacda:  "Agreed, all any of these suggestions do is water down the quality of the championship. Leave it alone. It's working fine. All it needs is another week rest added in to ensure noone plays three weeks in a row."
Why would they water down the quality of the championship?

You'd still have the top teams going toe to toe playing more big matches.

There was a fear before the Provincial round robins that there wouldn't be the cut and thrust of knockout championship and that more matches would mean less interest per game.

The opposite has happened. More games, more good quality games has only heightened the excitement levels.

Games between teams are showing increased attendances in the Provincial groups compared to the old system.

People like watching games, players like playing games, games are the best advertisement going for the sport.

There's a weird thing in the GAA where we're scared of playing games of meaning.

We'll have a tonne of shadow boxing but we can't have too much real stuff.

There's good evidence that people want more real games.

I'd love to see Tipp v Kilkenny in the championship guaranteed to play each other every year.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3121 - 31/01/2020 10:02:58    2263932

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Replying To omahant:  "For those of you who are wedded to traditional round robin groups (re-copied from page 7
earlier) - for AI SHC -
Make it 2 mixed groups of 6.
Put Muns 1,4,5 seeds and Lein 2,3,6 seeds in Group A (others to Group B, where Muns 6th could be a Lein team).

After 5-match round robin, the highest Muns and Lein team in BOTH groups play Prov Finals (or if you prefer, treat the 1,4 and 2,3 group pairings as Prov KO SFs as well to determine 4 Finalists).
Two Champs join top 3 from each group in AI KO QFs (most likely, Prov Champs get a bye to SFs instead, like now).

You get the best of both worlds - refreshed groups each year with the big Prov Final days retained.

Could do similar split Prov groups in football -
Group UL - Uls 1,4 with Lein 2,3;
Group LM - Lein 1,4 with Muns 2,3;
Group MC - Muns 1,4 with Conn 2,3;
Group CU - Conn 1,4 with Uls 2,3.

Add another 4 NFL highest-ranked teams added above to form 4 groups of 5.
Similar to hurling - have 4 Prov Finals - 4 Champs and each top 3 to AI KO 16 (likely less due to byes).
For fixture variety - group letters are reversed in EVEN yrs) - so Groups UC (Uls 1,4 with Conn 2,3), CM, ML and LU."
" traditional round robin groups" they have been in place for 2 years what tradition?

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1106 - 31/01/2020 20:57:22    2264073

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I meant in the wider sense - e.g. World Cup groups etc..

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1826 - 01/02/2020 00:06:17    2264101

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..as opposed to my inter-group or other uncommon structures.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1826 - 01/02/2020 00:17:35    2264102

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Replying To Breezy:  "" traditional round robin groups" they have been in place for 2 years what tradition?"
He's talking about round robins generally as a tournament format rather than specifically the Munster and Leinster round robins.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3121 - 01/02/2020 05:28:02    2264110

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To complete the story....16 teams outside the top 4 in each Prov play 2 seeded KO rds to determine the Last 4 who complete the 4 groups of 5. Other 12 could play a Tier 2, if desired.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1826 - 03/02/2020 23:04:15    2264978

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I personally am still baffled as to why people think the current system should be so drastically altered.
Yes, I would like to see 6 teams in each province and just have the top 2 going straight to the all Ireland semi final after their provincial final.
But other than that, just leave it alone.

Ej (Wexford) - Posts: 352 - 04/02/2020 00:52:36    2264990

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Replying To Ej:  "I personally am still baffled as to why people think the current system should be so drastically altered.
Yes, I would like to see 6 teams in each province and just have the top 2 going straight to the all Ireland semi final after their provincial final.
But other than that, just leave it alone."
The Provincial system doesn't suit well.

You have 6 in each Province but Kerry probably aren't as good as the 7th best team that would be in Leinster.

The Leinster championship isn't the Leinster championship, it's the All Ireland minus Munster.

I'd just think 12 teams and the best 12 teams should be in the top tier All Ireland.

I think the NHL is a bit silly now. So there's room for more games in the hurling round robin.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3121 - 04/02/2020 10:25:11    2265022

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