National Forum

Straight Knockout In SFC, Advantage Who?

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


I thought dubs might be caught this year but I really fancy them now with this setup

lilypad (Kildare) - Posts: 1358 - 26/06/2020 23:31:50    2281959

Link

Replying To football first:  "Why is there a backdoor option in hurling, but not in football? Seems very inconsistent, and unfair. From a football point of view, it only increases the gap between top and bottom, and has a hugely negative impact on weaker counties."
They wanted teams to be guaranteed 2 games from October onwards, with the national league been concluded football teams are guaranteed 2 games.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 2623 - 27/06/2020 00:08:30    2281965

Link

Replying To football first:  "Why is there a backdoor option in hurling, but not in football? Seems very inconsistent, and unfair. From a football point of view, it only increases the gap between top and bottom, and has a hugely negative impact on weaker counties."
Most likely about the number of games it takes to run off the hurling. Even with backdoor it only something like 16 games.

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1106 - 27/06/2020 00:25:31    2281966

Link

Replying To football first:  "Why is there a backdoor option in hurling, but not in football? Seems very inconsistent, and unfair. From a football point of view, it only increases the gap between top and bottom, and has a hugely negative impact on weaker counties."
Because there are only 10 teams playing in the Liam McCarthy. It means there are enough weekends to fit in backdoor games.
With 32 teams in football, it just isn't possible to fit in the amount of backdoor rounds needed.
An argument can also be made that the straight knockout system benefits the underdog. If they catch a big team on a given day and beat them, then that's it, they're out. With the backdoor, the bigger team gets a second chance and would almost certainly win if they meet again.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 879 - 27/06/2020 01:54:13    2281971

Link

Not much advantage for Donegal v Tyrone meeting in PR of Ulster.

Byanthon (Tyrone) - Posts: 1644 - 27/06/2020 08:01:40    2281972

Link

Replying To lilypad:  "I thought dubs might be caught this year but I really fancy them now with this setup"
Ahh forget about the dubs. Which one of us will play them in Leinster final?? All going to plan it's Meath v Kildare in semi. Bit of fun on here as the winter rolls in lol

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 17037 - 27/06/2020 08:13:25    2281973

Link

It should give the chasing pack behind Dublin a better chance because everyone knew that a team that good were definitely gonna be around until the AI semi final before as there was no way they were gonna slip up twice before then

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1106 - 27/06/2020 08:58:31    2281975

Link

Replying To WanPintWin:  "Because there are only 10 teams playing in the Liam McCarthy. It means there are enough weekends to fit in backdoor games.
With 32 teams in football, it just isn't possible to fit in the amount of backdoor rounds needed.
An argument can also be made that the straight knockout system benefits the underdog. If they catch a big team on a given day and beat them, then that's it, they're out. With the backdoor, the bigger team gets a second chance and would almost certainly win if they meet again."
The footballers are getting 2 rounds of league in first.

This was a way to guarantee 2 games for hurling counties.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3121 - 27/06/2020 09:56:49    2281978

Link

Not sure who has an advantage, if any, but it's certainly not Tyrone or Donegal. One of the top contenders here will be gone the first week, while the winners will still have a couple of awkward games in order to escape the Ulster minefield. The Kerry-Cork game should be interesting but at least the winners here are fairly sure of an All-Ireland semi-final place, with all due respect to the other Munster teams. Realistically, Dublin should get to the Leinster final handily enough, where neither Meath nor Kildare are likely to cause an upset. If pushed to predict the semi-final line up I would go for Dublin v Donegal (with Tyrone or Monaghan strong possibilities) and Kerry v Galway (not dismissing the credentials of Cork, Mayo or Roscommon). We could be looking at another Dublin-Kerry final but then again a second wave of Covid 19 (God forbid) would render all of this speculation irrelevant.

midlands (Westmeath) - Posts: 222 - 27/06/2020 10:22:38    2281980

Link

An open draw with at least 2 matches guaranteed would be best.

How is anyone supposed to motivate for significant training for the All Ireland if their team quite possibly has only one game. One of Tyrone v Donegal under the current setup will be gone after one match.

I see some people saying it's good to see knockout provincial matches back. Then they tell us they've been watching the premiership on sky sports.

That's who actually benefits from the GAA's amateur approach to promotion. Soccer and Sky Sports.

tyroneed (Tyrone) - Posts: 700 - 27/06/2020 11:21:57    2281990

Link

With the tight schedule and so little recovery time injuries picked up will be a bigger than usual factor. Even minor enough knocks could prove fatal if they take out a couple of key players. A Donegal team without Murphy or the Dubs without Fenton and McCarthy would still be tough opposition but these players always find something extra and every side has their own reliables.

For teams like Donegal and Tyrone who are due to meet twice in league and championship within a fortnight the temptation is bound to be there to hold a lot back for the knockout Ulster game and rely on Galway beating Mayo to secure Div 1 status for the two of them. The Ulster meeting will surely be their sole focus... a massive game but the end of the championship for one them.

Pericles (Mayo) - Posts: 2202 - 27/06/2020 11:52:45    2281993

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "The footballers are getting 2 rounds of league in first.

This was a way to guarantee 2 games for hurling counties."
But the goal is to give teams at least 2 championship games. Why would giving them a league game be better than a second championship game?
There are few enough teams in the Liam McCarthy that they can manage to fit in the back door. Why would they throw that benefit away by playing meaningless league games?
The issue is on the football side. There are 3 times as many teams competing and there isn't enough time in the window to get the qualifier rounds in. Finishing the league in football is also more meaningful as it has a bearing on the future championship structure.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 879 - 27/06/2020 11:58:00    2281994

Link

Replying To royaldunne:  "Nah Meath will beat Donegal in the semi."
Are the games going down to 60 mins or something?;)

achara (Monaghan) - Posts: 451 - 27/06/2020 12:18:31    2281997

Link

Replying To tyroneed:  "An open draw with at least 2 matches guaranteed would be best.

How is anyone supposed to motivate for significant training for the All Ireland if their team quite possibly has only one game. One of Tyrone v Donegal under the current setup will be gone after one match.

I see some people saying it's good to see knockout provincial matches back. Then they tell us they've been watching the premiership on sky sports.

That's who actually benefits from the GAA's amateur approach to promotion. Soccer and Sky Sports."
There just aren't enough weekends for an open draw with 2 games for everyone, unless you want take back some of the club allocated weeks.
It's not as if the GAA decided for the craic to go with straight knockout. It's in nobody's interest.
We're dealing with an unprecedented global situation, so it's the best that can be done in the circumstances. It's very tough in Donegal and Tyrone, but there isn't much alternative.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 879 - 27/06/2020 12:55:06    2281998

Link

It's a system that has benefited Kerry for decades prior to 2000. They can start their preparation now to peak for the start of December; a full 6 months of preparing for an All Ireland semi final they're guaranteed to be playing in.

Compare that to Donegal and Tyrone's preparation; having to peak for the 31st Oct/1st November; at this level that 4 week difference and upto 4 intense games in a short space of time is significant especially at that time of the year.

The Ulster Champions (likely Donegal or Tyrone) will arrive in Dublin at the start of December battle hardened but almost finished battling through games on heavy pitches wheras Kerry will arrive fresh and well prepared/drilled for a two game mini tournament.

The current Dublin team speaks for itself and they'd likely win the All Ireland no matter what system is in place. However the 2020 system gives Kerry a real chance of stopping them; they can now prepare for that mini tournament in December concentrating very much on Dublin. To be fair Kerry have a good team at the minute and that along with freshness will give them a chance.

I fancy Donegal to win Ulster but the fixtures and amount of hard battles in late Autumn conditions over just a few weeks will count them out of even getting to the AL final never mind winning it.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 712 - 27/06/2020 13:18:13    2282002

Link

Really looking forward to an old fashioned straight KO championship, every game is do or die, cup football at its best.

I don't think that it will change much in who it favours, Dublin hopefully will get a stronger challenge in Leinster because there's no safety net for the rest of us, we have to win.

But regardless of format, the better teams will still be there at the latter stages.

Of course all the above is completely dependent on us staying on top of the pandemic, if we slip and there's a second wave then no championship this season, simple as that. So fingers crossed we continue to do our best.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8583 - 27/06/2020 13:23:10    2282005

Link

Replying To WanPintWin:  "But the goal is to give teams at least 2 championship games. Why would giving them a league game be better than a second championship game?
There are few enough teams in the Liam McCarthy that they can manage to fit in the back door. Why would they throw that benefit away by playing meaningless league games?
The issue is on the football side. There are 3 times as many teams competing and there isn't enough time in the window to get the qualifier rounds in. Finishing the league in football is also more meaningful as it has a bearing on the future championship structure."
I think they've done the right thing in both codes.

Football teams get 3 games, the league is more important for a lot of teams than the qualifiers.

The hurling they've done the right thing having 2 championship games.

I think it's well organised.

I wasn't disagreeing with your earlier comment, just adding to it.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3121 - 27/06/2020 13:32:09    2282006

Link

In 2018 it was Donegal V Dublin in super eights as ulster and leinster champions, Last year it was Kerry v Donegal in super 8 as munster and ulster champions This year it has to be ulster v connaught champions in semi-final. Surely to god that's only fair. If the gaa set it up any other way then they have lost serious creditablitiy.

RoryGall35 (Donegal) - Posts: 98 - 27/06/2020 13:34:27    2282007

Link

Replying To sam1884:  "It's a system that has benefited Kerry for decades prior to 2000. They can start their preparation now to peak for the start of December; a full 6 months of preparing for an All Ireland semi final they're guaranteed to be playing in.

Compare that to Donegal and Tyrone's preparation; having to peak for the 31st Oct/1st November; at this level that 4 week difference and upto 4 intense games in a short space of time is significant especially at that time of the year.

The Ulster Champions (likely Donegal or Tyrone) will arrive in Dublin at the start of December battle hardened but almost finished battling through games on heavy pitches wheras Kerry will arrive fresh and well prepared/drilled for a two game mini tournament.

The current Dublin team speaks for itself and they'd likely win the All Ireland no matter what system is in place. However the 2020 system gives Kerry a real chance of stopping them; they can now prepare for that mini tournament in December concentrating very much on Dublin. To be fair Kerry have a good team at the minute and that along with freshness will give them a chance.

I fancy Donegal to win Ulster but the fixtures and amount of hard battles in late Autumn conditions over just a few weeks will count them out of even getting to the AL final never mind winning it."
Yeah, I think this system clearly benefits Kerry.

Dublin will be favourites still but Kerry will be closer due to the format than they would have been otherwise.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3121 - 27/06/2020 13:34:55    2282008

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "I think they've done the right thing in both codes.

Football teams get 3 games, the league is more important for a lot of teams than the qualifiers.

The hurling they've done the right thing having 2 championship games.

I think it's well organised.

I wasn't disagreeing with your earlier comment, just adding to it."
Gotcha. Apologies, I had read it has giving the hurlers league games would be a way of guaranteeing them 2 games, instead of the backdoor. Agreed, that there weren't many other options.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 879 - 27/06/2020 14:25:13    2282018

Link