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McDonagh Cup Link To All-Ireland To Be Removed?

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Leinster has to expand to 8. I don't think there is any other viable option. The McDonagh would still contain Carlow and Westmeath battling for promotion.
The vanquished football format should be taken on my Leinster. 2 groups of 4. 2nd v 3rd in quarter finals.
If Kerry ever happen to win the McDonagh:
1. The Munster championship should have 6 teams for one year. The 6th placed team relegated after that year.
2. Leinster should always remain at 8 teams. The McDonagh should reduce from 6 to 5 for a year when Munster has 6. If Kerry win the McDonagh, noone relegated from Leinster in that year.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8965 - 17/06/2025 08:56:36    2618584

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Leinster has to expand to 8. I don't think there is any other viable option. The McDonagh would still contain Carlow and Westmeath battling for promotion.
The vanquished football format should be taken on my Leinster. 2 groups of 4. 2nd v 3rd in quarter finals.
If Kerry ever happen to win the McDonagh:
1. The Munster championship should have 6 teams for one year. The 6th placed team relegated after that year.
2. Leinster should always remain at 8 teams. The McDonagh should reduce from 6 to 5 for a year when Munster has 6. If Kerry win the McDonagh, noone relegated from Leinster in that year."
If Keery win the Joe Mac they should get at least 3 years in Munster to help them build

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 16367 - 17/06/2025 11:48:09    2618658

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Replying To Viking66:  "If Keery win the Joe Mac they should get at least 3 years in Munster to help them build"
If Carlow or Westmeath are only getting at least 1 year, Kerry should be no different.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8965 - 17/06/2025 12:43:44    2618687

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Leinster has to expand to 8. I don't think there is any other viable option. The McDonagh would still contain Carlow and Westmeath battling for promotion.
The vanquished football format should be taken on my Leinster. 2 groups of 4. 2nd v 3rd in quarter finals.
If Kerry ever happen to win the McDonagh:
1. The Munster championship should have 6 teams for one year. The 6th placed team relegated after that year.
2. Leinster should always remain at 8 teams. The McDonagh should reduce from 6 to 5 for a year when Munster has 6. If Kerry win the McDonagh, noone relegated from Leinster in that year."
All that will do is further weaken the Leinster counties chances of winning an All-Ireland if the opposition is as bad as it would be with 8 teams.
The logical thing is knock-out provincials then seeded groups.

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1876 - 17/06/2025 12:44:41    2618688

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Replying To StoreysTash:  "All that will do is further weaken the Leinster counties chances of winning an All-Ireland if the opposition is as bad as it would be with 8 teams.
The logical thing is knock-out provincials then seeded groups."
Would it though? After the group stage and quarters, the top 4 are in semi finals.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8965 - 17/06/2025 13:13:32    2618706

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Replying To legendzxix:  "If Carlow or Westmeath are only getting at least 1 year, Kerry should be no different."
There should be 8 counties in Leinster including Carlow and Westmeath. Galway would be better off in Munster as they are closer to there. Not sure where Antrim should be playing tbh.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 16367 - 17/06/2025 14:34:11    2618738

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Leinster has to expand to 8. I don't think there is any other viable option. The McDonagh would still contain Carlow and Westmeath battling for promotion.
The vanquished football format should be taken on my Leinster. 2 groups of 4. 2nd v 3rd in quarter finals.
If Kerry ever happen to win the McDonagh:
1. The Munster championship should have 6 teams for one year. The 6th placed team relegated after that year.
2. Leinster should always remain at 8 teams. The McDonagh should reduce from 6 to 5 for a year when Munster has 6. If Kerry win the McDonagh, noone relegated from Leinster in that year."
It's odd that you lambast the system of three qualifying from a group of four in football but think that it would be fine in hurling.
Similarly, you say that a team losing a third game in football should be out but the same rules don't apply to hurling where a team that loses four times in Leinster could still progress.

CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 152 - 17/06/2025 14:35:10    2618740

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Replying To CeachtPeile:  "It's odd that you lambast the system of three qualifying from a group of four in football but think that it would be fine in hurling.
Similarly, you say that a team losing a third game in football should be out but the same rules don't apply to hurling where a team that loses four times in Leinster could still progress."
You raise fair points.
1. Leinster will have relegation to McDonagh.
2. The 3rd placed teams will probably lose 2 games in the group stage. If a quarter final is their 3rd loss, they are out.
Group A: Kilkenny, Wexford, Kildare, Antrim.
Group B: Galway, Dublin, Offaly, Laois.
R1: Kilkenny v Kildare, Wexford v Antrim.
R2: Antrim v Kilkenny, Kildare v Wexford.
R3: Kilkenny v Wexford, Kildare v Antrim.
Kilkenny v Wexford essentially a playoff for direct route to the semi finals. Kildare v Antrim a quarter final playoff. Loser looking at a relegation playoff.
Quarter finals: Wexford v Offaly, Dublin v Kildare.
Semi finals: Kilkenny v Dublin, Galway v Wexford.
Final: Kilkenny v Galway
All Ireland Playoff: Wexford v Dublin... winner to All Ireland quarter finals.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8965 - 17/06/2025 16:29:48    2618777

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Replying To CeachtPeile:  "It's odd that you lambast the system of three qualifying from a group of four in football but think that it would be fine in hurling.
Similarly, you say that a team losing a third game in football should be out but the same rules don't apply to hurling where a team that loses four times in Leinster could still progress."
Realistically that's not likely. No team has ever lost 3 games in the Leinster Round Robin stage and progressed to a Leinster Final or AI series. And 3 qualify from a group of 5 or 6, not a group of 4.
If you want to compare apples with apples all the Football counties progress to an AI competition after the Provincial Championships, not one county is eliminated. Nearly half the hurling counties are eliminated altogether from AI competition after the Provincial series, and only a third of the number of counties as there are in Football get to play in Provincial competition to start with.
The systems are completely different, they are actually like comparing apples with oranges. There are some similarities though, the biggest being that there aren't many counties with much of a chance of winning Sam or Liam when the lads get back to intercounty training at the start of the year.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 16367 - 17/06/2025 16:36:53    2618781

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Leinster has to expand to 8. I don't think there is any other viable option. The McDonagh would still contain Carlow and Westmeath battling for promotion.
The vanquished football format should be taken on my Leinster. 2 groups of 4. 2nd v 3rd in quarter finals.
If Kerry ever happen to win the McDonagh:
1. The Munster championship should have 6 teams for one year. The 6th placed team relegated after that year.
2. Leinster should always remain at 8 teams. The McDonagh should reduce from 6 to 5 for a year when Munster has 6. If Kerry win the McDonagh, noone relegated from Leinster in that year."
The relegation system is pretty unsatisfactory. Kerry have a particularly difficult task relative to the Leinster counties.

I don't think it's great to have no relegation some seasons.

I do think there needs to be some sort of change though.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4586 - 17/06/2025 18:44:19    2618820

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Replying To Whammo86:  "The relegation system is pretty unsatisfactory. Kerry have a particularly difficult task relative to the Leinster counties.

I don't think it's great to have no relegation some seasons.

I do think there needs to be some sort of change though."
If Munster is free from relegation worries, why can't Leinster have that occasionally if things work out that way?

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8965 - 17/06/2025 21:29:16    2618855

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Would it though? After the group stage and quarters, the top 4 are in semi finals."
And they come up against a team who have played 4 Munster teams and get beaten out the gate.

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1876 - 18/06/2025 12:54:31    2618990

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Replying To legendzxix:  "If Munster is free from relegation worries, why can't Leinster have that occasionally if things work out that way?"
Munster shouldn't really be but at least the weakest team there is very likely to be one of the strongest 9 teams in the country. In Leinster I don't think it does anyone any favours to let a weaker team have a free shot at a season with no relegation jeopardy.

A bad precedent shouldn't be used to justify something worse again.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4586 - 18/06/2025 13:37:18    2619006

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Replying To Viking66:  "There should be 8 counties in Leinster including Carlow and Westmeath. Galway would be better off in Munster as they are closer to there. Not sure where Antrim should be playing tbh."
Your right about Galway viking then we deff qualify every year.

Tiger1 (Wexford) - Posts: 402 - 18/06/2025 15:06:02    2619021

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Replying To StoreysTash:  "And they come up against a team who have played 4 Munster teams and get beaten out the gate."
I take your point. It is a conundrum. A competitive Leinster for say the top 4 or 5 but allowing the next 3 to 5 access to a higher level of hurling.
In the suggested format anyway the top 4 will have tough games in Round 3, semi finals and final or playoff. 3 games to have them as well prepared as possible for the All Ireland. Rounds 1 and 2 would be a trade off for not having a closed shop.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8965 - 18/06/2025 16:11:09    2619051

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I personally don't mind what system is used but the gap between the McDonagh and at least the non qualifying teams out of Munster and a hybrid Leinster. Neither do I begrudge any team when better than Waterford their place in the All-Ireland series but what is going on at the moment is ridiculous. Is the intent to lower the standard in some counties by denying them access and giving it to teams not close to them. Again the goal has to be getting the teams in the second tier to a higher standard and yes they have to play better teams but number one can they dominate the McDonagh. Your not coming up except you can and when up not going down next year so you continue for at least two seasons playing a higher level. Antrim needs to dominate next two seasons and Kildare need time to acclimatize. They are a good team and hurling could do with expanding the competition. The opportunity to do this is in Leinster. Offaly on their way. Imagine if Kildare were also. The talk would not be about the Munster Championship. Up and down is no help.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 3116 - 18/06/2025 19:16:29    2619089

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Replying To Canuck:  "I personally don't mind what system is used but the gap between the McDonagh and at least the non qualifying teams out of Munster and a hybrid Leinster. Neither do I begrudge any team when better than Waterford their place in the All-Ireland series but what is going on at the moment is ridiculous. Is the intent to lower the standard in some counties by denying them access and giving it to teams not close to them. Again the goal has to be getting the teams in the second tier to a higher standard and yes they have to play better teams but number one can they dominate the McDonagh. Your not coming up except you can and when up not going down next year so you continue for at least two seasons playing a higher level. Antrim needs to dominate next two seasons and Kildare need time to acclimatize. They are a good team and hurling could do with expanding the competition. The opportunity to do this is in Leinster. Offaly on their way. Imagine if Kildare were also. The talk would not be about the Munster Championship. Up and down is no help."
I think the recent changes to the league will certainly help to bridge the gap. Division 1B will become the place where the better McDonagh teams meet the lower McCarthy teams.

But ultimately the place to build is through the club game. While there was a good spread of players on the Kildare team from different clubs; Naas had by far the most and have won the last 3 county finals by 8, 11 and 16 points. We need other clubs to step up to that level. It takes 3/4 clubs in the county to keep driving the standards on against each other.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 473 - 19/06/2025 09:27:54    2619147

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A competitive Leinster would be Kilkenny, Galway, Wexford and Dublin battling for top 2 of 4. None of the 4 would want to be dropping down to the McDonagh upon finishing 4th. The next counties on the ranking understandably want to be competing at a higher level.
The Leinster round robin started with 5. Expanded to 6. Ending the preliminary quarter-finals should have the trade off of at least two more joining the Leinster party. Striking a balance between top 4 and the next 4 getting the competitive games they need then is where a solution and compromise has to be found.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8965 - 19/06/2025 12:09:44    2619192

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Replying To legendzxix:  "A competitive Leinster would be Kilkenny, Galway, Wexford and Dublin battling for top 2 of 4. None of the 4 would want to be dropping down to the McDonagh upon finishing 4th. The next counties on the ranking understandably want to be competing at a higher level.
The Leinster round robin started with 5. Expanded to 6. Ending the preliminary quarter-finals should have the trade off of at least two more joining the Leinster party. Striking a balance between top 4 and the next 4 getting the competitive games they need then is where a solution and compromise has to be found."
I personally would agree with having the 8 top Leinster counties in the Leinster Championship. If you reduce it to 4 then there'd be no relegation as there is in Munster, that would be a disaster for the game of hurling as a whole.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 16367 - 19/06/2025 14:37:59    2619261

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Replying To legendzxix:  "A competitive Leinster would be Kilkenny, Galway, Wexford and Dublin battling for top 2 of 4. None of the 4 would want to be dropping down to the McDonagh upon finishing 4th. The next counties on the ranking understandably want to be competing at a higher level.
The Leinster round robin started with 5. Expanded to 6. Ending the preliminary quarter-finals should have the trade off of at least two more joining the Leinster party. Striking a balance between top 4 and the next 4 getting the competitive games they need then is where a solution and compromise has to be found."
I don't know. While Leinster has done a lot for developing counties I don't think we need to further dilute the Leinster championship.

Munster counties hold the advantage now being more battle hardened.

You could argue the current format has damaged Dublin, Galway and Wexford.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3751 - 20/06/2025 11:14:31    2619424

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