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McDonagh Cup Link To All-Ireland To Be Removed?

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The GAA have written to the six McDonagh counties for next year to see if they are agreeable to cutting the link to the All-Ireland series. If agreed, the plan is to allow more rest weekends between games and for the McDonagh Cup final to be a curtain raiser for an All-Ireland semi-final.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8284 - 27/06/2023 13:56:36    2490067

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The GAA have written to the six McDonagh counties for next year to see if they are agreeable to cutting the link to the All-Ireland series. If agreed, the plan is to allow more rest weekends between games and for the McDonagh Cup final to be a curtain raiser for an All-Ireland semi-final."
Think they should agree to it really, its a really tough ask even for the winners of the Joe Mc to mentally get back to where they need to be in order to be competitive against either of the third place provincial teams. The extended timeframe should also allow for panels more time for recouperation from injuries etc. This could help better what is already a brilliant competition

keepitlit (Longford) - Posts: 37 - 27/06/2023 15:04:44    2490102

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There is already a link between the 2. Win the Joe Mac and you are in the Liam Mccarthy the following year. Is that not enough?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13862 - 27/06/2023 16:08:02    2490141

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Replying To Viking66:  "There is already a link between the 2. Win the Joe Mac and you are in the Liam Mccarthy the following year. Is that not enough?"
You could take a history lesson first to be fair. The McDonagh Cup was originally a qualifier group for the Leinster Championship. After a 4 team round robin, the top 2 qualified for the Leinster quarter-finals.
When the provincial round robins came in, it was no longer possible for the top 2 to enter Leinster quarter-finals. The compromise solution for the support of the qualifier group counties for the provincial round robin structure was that the McDonagh finalists would enter at the preliminary quarter-final stage.
So that is the history of the evolution of the McDonagh Cup. If the McDonagh Cup winners are to be promoted only for the following year, I am not against the idea. If it is another step in the evolution of the McDonagh Cup, so be it. The McDonagh final before an All-Ireland semi-final is a fair idea.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8284 - 27/06/2023 17:20:28    2490176

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Its not serving any purpose but how does the GAA propose Offaly and Carlow close the gap and get up to the standard of the top counties other than by hurling them?
The GAA care about the top 7-8 counties and the rest can go and take a hike.

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1259 - 27/06/2023 17:26:51    2490181

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "Its not serving any purpose but how does the GAA propose Offaly and Carlow close the gap and get up to the standard of the top counties other than by hurling them?
The GAA care about the top 7-8 counties and the rest can go and take a hike."
How exactly did that Tipp/Offaly game improve Offaly? Did nothing fie Tipp either.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1952 - 27/06/2023 17:37:20    2490188

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I understand where this is coming from, but it would effectively reduce the Liam McCarthy/AI series from 17 to 11 teams, which is a pity.
I have seen some people question the Joe McDonagh runners up going on to the AI series, which I can understand.
But I still think it would be good for the winners to go on to the AI series, although I'm not sure how that would be structured. The winners are going to have momentum after the Joe McDonagh final, Carlow were in it up to the very end against Dublin this year, and Laois won their pre-lim quarter final in 2019.

If the link is broken, then we'll have 5 stand-alone tiers in hurling. I think that has to be addressed, that much granularity can't be good for hurling overall

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 27/06/2023 17:59:26    2490206

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Replying To legendzxix:  "You could take a history lesson first to be fair. The McDonagh Cup was originally a qualifier group for the Leinster Championship. After a 4 team round robin, the top 2 qualified for the Leinster quarter-finals.
When the provincial round robins came in, it was no longer possible for the top 2 to enter Leinster quarter-finals. The compromise solution for the support of the qualifier group counties for the provincial round robin structure was that the McDonagh finalists would enter at the preliminary quarter-final stage.
So that is the history of the evolution of the McDonagh Cup. If the McDonagh Cup winners are to be promoted only for the following year, I am not against the idea. If it is another step in the evolution of the McDonagh Cup, so be it. The McDonagh final before an All-Ireland semi-final is a fair idea."
I know the history of the competition. As you well know also from numerous discussions we have had over the last year or 2, I am one of its biggest fans. I am also one of the biggest proponents on this forum of raising the standard of hurling in the middle tier counties, and countrywide in general, and have come up with numerous ideas to achieve this, from investment to training and education. Its just I don't see how getting walloped by whoever finishes 3rd in Leinster or Munster is any benefit to the Joe Mac counties. I personally feel that having the Joe Mac final before an AI semifinal or even the final will do the competition more good in the long run.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13862 - 27/06/2023 18:00:54    2490210

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Replying To legendzxix:  "You could take a history lesson first to be fair. The McDonagh Cup was originally a qualifier group for the Leinster Championship. After a 4 team round robin, the top 2 qualified for the Leinster quarter-finals.
When the provincial round robins came in, it was no longer possible for the top 2 to enter Leinster quarter-finals. The compromise solution for the support of the qualifier group counties for the provincial round robin structure was that the McDonagh finalists would enter at the preliminary quarter-final stage.
So that is the history of the evolution of the McDonagh Cup. If the McDonagh Cup winners are to be promoted only for the following year, I am not against the idea. If it is another step in the evolution of the McDonagh Cup, so be it. The McDonagh final before an All-Ireland semi-final is a fair idea."
Am afraid you're getting mixed up a bit.

The McDonagh Cup was only introduced at the same time as the provincial round-robins (2018), and it's always been on the current system of the finalists going into the All-Ireland series rather than being a qualifier for the Leinster Championship.

What you're thinking of is the system that operated for a few years prior to that, where there was first a preliminary round-robin in the Leinster Championship itself. For example, in 2017, teams taking part were Laois, Westmeath, Kerry and Meath, with the top two of them going into the Leinster quarter-finals.

But these teams only took part in the Leinster Senior Championship and not in anything else, such as the Christy Ring Cup, which was the second tier competition at the time.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2621 - 27/06/2023 18:09:48    2490216

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Tbf Carlow led Dublin for long periods but squad debt and experience playing at a higher level definitely pushed Dublin over the line. There is a large gap and the McDonagh Cup teams need to play the bigger teams more often if they are ever going to improve. From a carlow point of view we definitely need more people playing the game and more clubs imo. The player base is so small we are way exceeding where we should be but need the gaa to help push the game more if we are to continue never mind getting to liam Mccarthy level on a regular basis.

Unusedsub (Carlow) - Posts: 91 - 27/06/2023 18:21:18    2490222

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Put the 4th Munster team into a preliminary quarter final against the 3rd Leinster team.

KnockaineyAbú (Limerick) - Posts: 96 - 27/06/2023 19:25:21    2490236

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "Its not serving any purpose but how does the GAA propose Offaly and Carlow close the gap and get up to the standard of the top counties other than by hurling them?
The GAA care about the top 7-8 counties and the rest can go and take a hike."
If there were 12 in the All Ireland I think the developing counties overall would have the right deal for them. There'd be 3 places for developing teams each year. Carlow, Laois, Antrim, Westmeath and Offaly wouldn't be involved every year but when they were they'd get a good number of games and also a better shot at staying up and building over a number of years.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 27/06/2023 19:41:20    2490239

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The GAA have written to the six McDonagh counties for next year to see if they are agreeable to cutting the link to the All-Ireland series. If agreed, the plan is to allow more rest weekends between games and for the McDonagh Cup final to be a curtain raiser for an All-Ireland semi-final."
Going backwards again. 17 teams in the Liam McCarthy race brought down to 11 will not help the weaker counties improve as they are getting no exposure to the top level.

GaA247 (Cork) - Posts: 58 - 27/06/2023 21:51:15    2490257

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Replying To keepitlit:  "Think they should agree to it really, its a really tough ask even for the winners of the Joe Mc to mentally get back to where they need to be in order to be competitive against either of the third place provincial teams. The extended timeframe should also allow for panels more time for recouperation from injuries etc. This could help better what is already a brilliant competition"
I think it's worth considering. How do you bring the McDonagh Cup finalists to compete with the McCarthy Cup teams?

thelongridge (Offaly) - Posts: 1879 - 27/06/2023 21:54:17    2490258

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Replying To KnockaineyAbú:  "Put the 4th Munster team into a preliminary quarter final against the 3rd Leinster team."
I know.. why don't you let all of Munster through to the All ireland series.. tis kinda like Fr Ted... I think they should get both parachutes because they're so great !!

TomWex (Wexford) - Posts: 85 - 27/06/2023 22:18:41    2490261

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Replying To GaA247:  "Going backwards again. 17 teams in the Liam McCarthy race brought down to 11 will not help the weaker counties improve as they are getting no exposure to the top level."
Totally agree. It should be left as it is. It is unfortunate that Offaly got a hammering this year but I dont think it will happen to the same extent every year. The truth is, if they were facing Dublin they'd have been fancying themselves and would have been way more competitive. As well as probably being on a "downer" after losing to Carlow, they were unfortunate to have to face a highly motivated Tipp team intent on making a statement after losing to Waterford. Considering how "flat" Tipp subsequently were vs Galway , and how winning so easily vs Offaly is being touted as having been unhelpful for them (though I dont think myself it had any bearing at all on their performance vs Galway), I expect if they were to play Offaly again next year at the same stage they would be a lot less motivated, maybe play some of their reserves, and attempt to come into the quarter final as unimpressively as possible!

PoolSturgeon (Galway) - Posts: 1953 - 27/06/2023 22:43:20    2490268

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Replying To Unusedsub:  "Tbf Carlow led Dublin for long periods but squad debt and experience playing at a higher level definitely pushed Dublin over the line. There is a large gap and the McDonagh Cup teams need to play the bigger teams more often if they are ever going to improve. From a carlow point of view we definitely need more people playing the game and more clubs imo. The player base is so small we are way exceeding where we should be but need the gaa to help push the game more if we are to continue never mind getting to liam Mccarthy level on a regular basis."
I think the 'McDonagh Cup' teams could be brought further into the fold. Recently, I found the 'Johnny Kelly Plan' (Offaly Manager) interesting with its main goal of giving such "squeezed middle" teams an opportunity to compete against stronger teams on an ongoing basis.

With that goal and mitigation of 'mismatch / blowout risk' in mind, I present / would trial the following:

- 16 team League Div 1, with three hierarchical / ranked Groups 1A, 1B & 1C, of 5, 6 & 5 teams, respectively.

- For a 10-match schedule, teams in Group 1A play those in Groups 1A & 1B; Group 1B plays Groups 1A & 1C; and Group 1C plays Groups 1B & 1C.

- One up / one down, with no League KO stage.

- Top 11 (Groups 1A & 1B teams at the beginning of the League) enter straight KO Provincial & AI Championships, with the Next 6 (Group 1C teams & Div 2 Champ) contesting the KO McDonagh Cup.

- To limit match quantity, consider if certain matches could 'double up' as Provincial KO and League ties (where possible, avoid all-Group 1B Provincial ties, as these cannot double up, and would need to be played separately).

In this, my 'quirky' 16-team Div 1 structure, 'lower McCarthy Cup teams' (Group 1B) straddle the 'bigger teams' (Group 1A) and 'McDonagh Cup teams' (Group 1C) providing all counties with a 'mixed quality' schedule and an opportunity to develop. Of note, promoted and relegated teams continue to 'repeat play' six of their 10 opponents in consecutive seasons.

Does this make any sense?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2889 - 28/06/2023 02:16:48    2490294

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "Am afraid you're getting mixed up a bit.

The McDonagh Cup was only introduced at the same time as the provincial round-robins (2018), and it's always been on the current system of the finalists going into the All-Ireland series rather than being a qualifier for the Leinster Championship.

What you're thinking of is the system that operated for a few years prior to that, where there was first a preliminary round-robin in the Leinster Championship itself. For example, in 2017, teams taking part were Laois, Westmeath, Kerry and Meath, with the top two of them going into the Leinster quarter-finals.

But these teams only took part in the Leinster Senior Championship and not in anything else, such as the Christy Ring Cup, which was the second tier competition at the time."
Respectfully it is the other way around. You are getting mixed up on this one. The qualifier group became the McDonagh Cup under the 2018 changes.
"An amendment put forward by Laois, Offaly and Meath means that there will be a change to the All-Ireland quarter final stage.
The third-place team in the provincial group shall play a Preliminary Quarter Final against one of the Tier 2 Championship finalists with Tier 2 teams having home advantage.
A new Tier 2 Championship will be contested by counties that previously competed in the Qualifer Round-Robin section of the Leinster Senior Hurling Championship."

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8284 - 28/06/2023 07:13:21    2490298

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Replying To Marlon_JD:  "I understand where this is coming from, but it would effectively reduce the Liam McCarthy/AI series from 17 to 11 teams, which is a pity.
I have seen some people question the Joe McDonagh runners up going on to the AI series, which I can understand.
But I still think it would be good for the winners to go on to the AI series, although I'm not sure how that would be structured. The winners are going to have momentum after the Joe McDonagh final, Carlow were in it up to the very end against Dublin this year, and Laois won their pre-lim quarter final in 2019.

If the link is broken, then we'll have 5 stand-alone tiers in hurling. I think that has to be addressed, that much granularity can't be good for hurling overall"
I'd be in favour of expanding the McDonagh to 8 teams. After 7 rounds, the top 4 can contest semi-finals, with the top 2 getting home advantage.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8284 - 28/06/2023 07:16:12    2490299

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Replying To Whammo86:  "If there were 12 in the All Ireland I think the developing counties overall would have the right deal for them. There'd be 3 places for developing teams each year. Carlow, Laois, Antrim, Westmeath and Offaly wouldn't be involved every year but when they were they'd get a good number of games and also a better shot at staying up and building over a number of years."
5 divisions of 7 team with 2 up and down might be the solution to offer the better McDonagh counties some tougher league games.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8284 - 28/06/2023 07:25:04    2490300

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