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Replying To ExiledInWex: "On the topic of junior B, is there a reason why it is district based when every other grade is not?" Might sound trite, but essentially, the main reason is so that the District Committees still have something to do. Otherwise they'd lose all relevance altogether.
For instance, when I was playing underage (1980s era), all competitions up to minor were run on a District basis. Junior was as well, and remember this was when there was only four grades at adult level - Senior, Intermediate, Junior, and Junior B.
Bit by bit, all those things began to be operated on a countywide basis instead, so that now all that's left at District level is Junior B. I think clubs generally like it that way as they have more leeway in re-arranging fixtures and don't face long distances for matches (think Fethard v Kilanerin in one of those club grounds), but maybe eventually it'll go countywide as well, if there's appetite for it.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2257 - 24/08/2023 16:01:39
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Replying To ExiledInWex: "Not a clue. That stadium in Beckan cost 3m I think with the dome included. It would be well spent money in my opinion and removes many hurdles to the rushed nature of our club championship if the football championship could be played in a dome.
I not saying any of this is a cure all, but if Wexford is to remain a dual 50-50 county something has to be done differently. Because at the moment, the county is winning in nothing and regressing in both." I know that a few years ago, the Co. Board were exploring the possibility of developing a 4G pitch in conjunction with one or more of the secondary schools in Wexford town. The idea was that it would take less investment from any one particular body, and would get more use. On the downside, would involve at least double the amount of red tape.
Am unsure if the idea is still on the table at all or not.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2257 - 24/08/2023 16:03:38
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Might sound trite, but essentially, the main reason is so that the District Committees still have something to do. Otherwise they'd lose all relevance altogether.
For instance, when I was playing underage (1980s era), all competitions up to minor were run on a District basis. Junior was as well, and remember this was when there was only four grades at adult level - Senior, Intermediate, Junior, and Junior B.
Bit by bit, all those things began to be operated on a countywide basis instead, so that now all that's left at District level is Junior B. I think clubs generally like it that way as they have more leeway in re-arranging fixtures and don't face long distances for matches (think Fethard v Kilanerin in one of those club grounds), but maybe eventually it'll go countywide as well, if there's appetite for it." We had trips to the Alley and Askamore with the u12s this year. Great to have a reason to go to some of these grounds that you wouldn't get to see otherwise!
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12114 - 24/08/2023 17:36:05
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Replying To Viking66: "We had trips to the Alley and Askamore with the u12s this year. Great to have a reason to go to some of these grounds that you wouldn't get to see otherwise!" I sound like a real old man now, but wouldn't have happened back in my day!
I remember the whole way up through U12, U14 and U16, we only once got the chance to play a team from outside our own District. That was when we won our District Final at U14 and had a county semi-final against one of the other District winners. We lost.
Think it's a far better system all round at underage these days all right.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2257 - 25/08/2023 10:06:35
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Replying To Pikeman96: "I sound like a real old man now, but wouldn't have happened back in my day!
I remember the whole way up through U12, U14 and U16, we only once got the chance to play a team from outside our own District. That was when we won our District Final at U14 and had a county semi-final against one of the other District winners. We lost.
Think it's a far better system all round at underage these days all right." Definitely! Great for the young lads!
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12114 - 25/08/2023 12:27:57
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Yeah, it makes no sense to me. Even thinking now about Kilanerin or Castletown to teams in the south of the county, the travel times are much less since the M11 was extended.
ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1140 - 25/08/2023 14:03:50
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Replying To Pikeman96: "I sound like a real old man now, but wouldn't have happened back in my day!
I remember the whole way up through U12, U14 and U16, we only once got the chance to play a team from outside our own District. That was when we won our District Final at U14 and had a county semi-final against one of the other District winners. We lost.
Think it's a far better system all round at underage these days all right." It also allows for better tiering, its no wonder so many gave up the game.
zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1806 - 25/08/2023 14:27:26
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Maybe an idea to improve league and strecht out championship but lessen the load .
League winners represent the county at provincial level play league as normal top 2 in each goup play league semi final .
Div 1 same div 2 same div 3 same .
Play semis after county teams have exited championship
losing league semi finalists get bye into preliminary 1/4 finals . Finalist get bye into 1/4 played on 3rd weekend of championship .
2 groups 4 then start their championship proper at saame time as league semi finals 3 round Robin games each .
Top 2 in each group go into 1/4 finals
As do finalists in league
3rd place in groups play preliminary 1/4 finals v losing league semi finalist . .
Then start knock out phase ue. 1/4 finals 4th place on group relegation final . Could be run off in 7 weeks . Most teams having at least 1 week off. Would put meaning into a defunct league system .
Winners represent county at provincial level
Finalists get straight to 1/4 championship
Semi finalists preliminary 1/4 final
No relegation for league semi finalists .
County players back for league semi finalis
Extended county panel members could be relesadecfor league games bar 25 in match day panels .
Would not have to be finished championship before provincials start . Can work around fixture clashes if needs be .
Can still do split season or week h week f or 2 week blocks . Whichever is voted for
Just an idea have nt put too much thought into down side I leave that to some of ye .
Formertownie (Wexford) - Posts: 184 - 25/08/2023 15:06:21
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Replying To ExiledInWex: "Yeah, it makes no sense to me. Even thinking now about Kilanerin or Castletown to teams in the south of the county, the travel times are much less since the M11 was extended." Yes you are spot on Exiled. While I wouldn't use the M11 to go to Castletown, I go Adamstown, Enniscorthy bypass, Ferns, Camolin, Gorey, the M11 has reduced travel times because Gorey isn't the nightmare it used to be to get though after 6.30 in the evening, and the new link road/bypass from the Ross Road around to to Scarawalsh means I don't have to go through Enniscorthy.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12114 - 25/08/2023 15:16:45
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Replying To Formertownie: "Maybe an idea to improve league and strecht out championship but lessen the load .
League winners represent the county at provincial level play league as normal top 2 in each goup play league semi final .
Div 1 same div 2 same div 3 same .
Play semis after county teams have exited championship
losing league semi finalists get bye into preliminary 1/4 finals . Finalist get bye into 1/4 played on 3rd weekend of championship .
2 groups 4 then start their championship proper at saame time as league semi finals 3 round Robin games each .
Top 2 in each group go into 1/4 finals
As do finalists in league
3rd place in groups play preliminary 1/4 finals v losing league semi finalist . .
Then start knock out phase ue. 1/4 finals 4th place on group relegation final . Could be run off in 7 weeks . Most teams having at least 1 week off. Would put meaning into a defunct league system .
Winners represent county at provincial level
Finalists get straight to 1/4 championship
Semi finalists preliminary 1/4 final
No relegation for league semi finalists .
County players back for league semi finalis
Extended county panel members could be relesadecfor league games bar 25 in match day panels .
Would not have to be finished championship before provincials start . Can work around fixture clashes if needs be .
Can still do split season or week h week f or 2 week blocks . Whichever is voted for
Just an idea have nt put too much thought into down side I leave that to some of ye ." That's a good idea. Will give the League more relevance as it determines provincial and Championship qualification, and the pressure to get finished by October will be off. When would you be proposing to start the League part? Around April? And how many teams in each division?
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12114 - 26/08/2023 07:25:53
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Replying To Viking66: "That's a good idea. Will give the League more relevance as it determines provincial and Championship qualification, and the pressure to get finished by October will be off. When would you be proposing to start the League part? Around April? And how many teams in each division?" Two big problems with it.
1 - You can't enter League champions into the provincial championships. Your representatives in the provincial championships must be your own club championships winners. It's the same rule that means you can't nominate another club (e.g. last year's champions) to take part this year if this year's championships are not finished on time.
2 - You'd still be tying championship progress to finishing positions in a league where clubs would have to play without their inter-county players, and I simply can't seen clubs ever going for this. In football this year, for example, Castletown and Kilanerin would both have been down five or six players for the league matches.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2257 - 26/08/2023 18:42:30
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Two big problems with it.
1 - You can't enter League champions into the provincial championships. Your representatives in the provincial championships must be your own club championships winners. It's the same rule that means you can't nominate another club (e.g. last year's champions) to take part this year if this year's championships are not finished on time.
2 - You'd still be tying championship progress to finishing positions in a league where clubs would have to play without their inter-county players, and I simply can't seen clubs ever going for this. In football this year, for example, Castletown and Kilanerin would both have been down five or six players for the league matches." Ah ok. On point 2 though the clubs would have their county players back for the end of the League stages? So would likely qualify for the knockouts anyway?
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12114 - 26/08/2023 19:29:53
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Two big problems with it.
1 - You can't enter League champions into the provincial championships. Your representatives in the provincial championships must be your own club championships winners. It's the same rule that means you can't nominate another club (e.g. last year's champions) to take part this year if this year's championships are not finished on time.
2 - You'd still be tying championship progress to finishing positions in a league where clubs would have to play without their inter-county players, and I simply can't seen clubs ever going for this. In football this year, for example, Castletown and Kilanerin would both have been down five or six players for the league matches." Kilanerin still won the league Castletown beaten semi finalists . Naomh eanna won hurling
Was nt sure if league winners could represent at provincials just an idea that hit me thats all . Take out the provincial representation . Could still work . Yes it's tied to championship . Biggest carrot less games guaranteed preliminary 1/4 final and no relegation I m sure it could work but then that's not up to me .
Maybe it may give clubs back a little bit of loyalty and balance. Point is it was an idea .
Formertownie (Wexford) - Posts: 184 - 26/08/2023 20:01:52
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https://scoreline.ie/its-probably-no-ones-fault-tullaroan-boss-ken-coogan-comments-on-friday-fixtures-going-ahead-amid-weather-warnings/
Fixture congestion not just a Wexford issue.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12114 - 27/08/2023 09:11:19
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Two big problems with it.
1 - You can't enter League champions into the provincial championships. Your representatives in the provincial championships must be your own club championships winners. It's the same rule that means you can't nominate another club (e.g. last year's champions) to take part this year if this year's championships are not finished on time.
2 - You'd still be tying championship progress to finishing positions in a league where clubs would have to play without their inter-county players, and I simply can't seen clubs ever going for this. In football this year, for example, Castletown and Kilanerin would both have been down five or six players for the league matches." Obviously all hypothetical but What about starting county in March and finish in June. Then could play a league of all teams in senior of 11 games first 5 games during between March and June without the intercounty players with alternating weeks hurling and football. Then the remaining 5 with the intercounty players. Could even take a break for June for leaving cert and allow county players a break and to get back with their clubs. At end of 11 games top 4 teams through to quarter finals and bottom 8 into preliminary. 4 winners through to quarters and 4 losers into relegation semis. Could have with the first 5 games players don't lose their status if players play with the first team.
Could also get rid of provincial club competitions and just have a draw of all 17 teams in hurling and 32 teams in football so all Ireland club championship can be played in 7 or 8 weeks so whole championship will be over by end October.
What's your thoughts on this?
camánouttathat (Wexford) - Posts: 47 - 27/08/2023 11:13:08
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Replying To Formertownie: " Replying To Pikeman96: "Two big problems with it.
1 - You can't enter League champions into the provincial championships. Your representatives in the provincial championships must be your own club championships winners. It's the same rule that means you can't nominate another club (e.g. last year's champions) to take part this year if this year's championships are not finished on time.
2 - You'd still be tying championship progress to finishing positions in a league where clubs would have to play without their inter-county players, and I simply can't seen clubs ever going for this. In football this year, for example, Castletown and Kilanerin would both have been down five or six players for the league matches." Kilanerin still won the league Castletown beaten semi finalists . Naomh eanna won hurling Was nt sure if league winners could represent at provincials just an idea that hit me thats all . Take out the provincial representation . Could still work . Yes it's tied to championship . Biggest carrot less games guaranteed preliminary 1/4 final and no relegation I m sure it could work but then that's not up to me . Maybe it may give clubs back a little bit of loyalty and balance. Point is it was an idea ."
Same thing applies to a lesser extent in the hurling.
That would surely change if the League instead offered a direct route to the play-off stages of the championship, and then clubs who'd have to play the League without several inter-county players would be at a significant disadvantage.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2257 - 27/08/2023 13:15:01
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Replying To camánouttathat: " Replying To Pikeman96: "Two big problems with it.
1 - You can't enter League champions into the provincial championships. Your representatives in the provincial championships must be your own club championships winners. It's the same rule that means you can't nominate another club (e.g. last year's champions) to take part this year if this year's championships are not finished on time.
2 - You'd still be tying championship progress to finishing positions in a league where clubs would have to play without their inter-county players, and I simply can't seen clubs ever going for this. In football this year, for example, Castletown and Kilanerin would both have been down five or six players for the league matches." Obviously all hypothetical but What about starting county in March and finish in June. Then could play a league of all teams in senior of 11 games first 5 games during between March and June without the intercounty players with alternating weeks hurling and football. Then the remaining 5 with the intercounty players. Could even take a break for June for leaving cert and allow county players a break and to get back with their clubs. At end of 11 games top 4 teams through to quarter finals and bottom 8 into preliminary. 4 winners through to quarters and 4 losers into relegation semis. Could have with the first 5 games players don't lose their status if players play with the first team. Could also get rid of provincial club competitions and just have a draw of all 17 teams in hurling and 32 teams in football so all Ireland club championship can be played in 7 or 8 weeks so whole championship will be over by end October. What's your thoughts on this?"
Bear in mind too that it would mean Wexford would be out of inter-county hurling by June Bank Holiday weekend even in a relatively good year of reaching an All-Ireland semi-final (based on an assumption of hurling semi-finals that weekend, followed by football semi-finals the next weekend, then hurling final, and then football final on the fourth Sunday of June).
Having said that, I did once tease out a similar idea myself. Potential issue is that it's not a level playing field. For example, in football, Team A could play Castletown in Round 2 of the League when they're down six county players, while Team B could play them in Round 9 when they have their county players back.
Also issues over things like venues, match officials, and let's face it, revenue:
- If all these league matches become de facto preliminary championship matches, are they played home/away in club grounds like league matches currently are, or do they need to be fixed for netural venues like championship group games?
- For similar reasons, surely all league matches (in the higher grades anyway) would need the full complement of referee, two official linesmen, and four official umpires?
- Would you charge into all these league matches, or would revenue just come from the preliminary quarter-finals stage onwards?
There may well be ways of dealing with such things, but they're examples of important things that would have to be considered along the way.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2257 - 27/08/2023 13:33:57
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I was chatting to a few managers and selectors from traditional hurling clubs over the last few weeks. They think the current format works. No need to change it.
Yellowhelmet (Australia) - Posts: 89 - 27/08/2023 18:30:43
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Replying To Pikeman96: " Replying To camánouttathat: "[quote=Pikeman96: "Two big problems with it.
1 - You can't enter League champions into the provincial championships. Your representatives in the provincial championships must be your own club championships winners. It's the same rule that means you can't nominate another club (e.g. last year's champions) to take part this year if this year's championships are not finished on time.
2 - You'd still be tying championship progress to finishing positions in a league where clubs would have to play without their inter-county players, and I simply can't seen clubs ever going for this. In football this year, for example, Castletown and Kilanerin would both have been down five or six players for the league matches." Obviously all hypothetical but What about starting county in March and finish in June. Then could play a league of all teams in senior of 11 games first 5 games during between March and June without the intercounty players with alternating weeks hurling and football. Then the remaining 5 with the intercounty players. Could even take a break for June for leaving cert and allow county players a break and to get back with their clubs. At end of 11 games top 4 teams through to quarter finals and bottom 8 into preliminary. 4 winners through to quarters and 4 losers into relegation semis. Could have with the first 5 games players don't lose their status if players play with the first team. Could also get rid of provincial club competitions and just have a draw of all 17 teams in hurling and 32 teams in football so all Ireland club championship can be played in 7 or 8 weeks so whole championship will be over by end October. What's your thoughts on this?"
Bear in mind too that it would mean Wexford would be out of inter-county hurling by June Bank Holiday weekend even in a relatively good year of reaching an All-Ireland semi-final (based on an assumption of hurling semi-finals that weekend, followed by football semi-finals the next weekend, then hurling final, and then football final on the fourth Sunday of June).
Having said that, I did once tease out a similar idea myself. Potential issue is that it's not a level playing field. For example, in football, Team A could play Castletown in Round 2 of the League when they're down six county players, while Team B could play them in Round 9 when they have their county players back.
Also issues over things like venues, match officials, and let's face it, revenue:
- If all these league matches become de facto preliminary championship matches, are they played home/away in club grounds like league matches currently are, or do they need to be fixed for netural venues like championship group games?
- For similar reasons, surely all league matches (in the higher grades anyway) would need the full complement of referee, two official linesmen, and four official umpires?
- Would you charge into all these league matches, or would revenue just come from the preliminary quarter-finals stage onwards?
There may well be ways of dealing with such things, but they're examples of important things that would have to be considered along the way."]With Wexford been out of championship in June with a good year I don't really a problem with that. Championship at the moment is over in July and to be fair we live in hope rather than expectation to see Wexford playing in July hurling or football.
With the level playing field I think that for the Castletown example,they still have 6 games with their county players and even after that they have another chance of getting into a quarter final and have 2 chances of not been relegated. And for the teams who have to play them say in games 9,10,11 I think that you have to beat the best teams in the county to win a county championship and if you don't play them in the league you still have to get past them in knockout stages .Gorey this year beat the Martins and Rapps. And also just a case in point St Martin's hurling team that they were without both ROC and JOC last year and got to a final and had them this year but looked worse off.
With officials I don't know if it would be too much to ask officials to do longer spell of a championship and that might be an unseen problem. How many refs are there that ref both hurling and football?
camánouttathat (Wexford) - Posts: 47 - 27/08/2023 19:23:47
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Roughly 60 refs this year at adult level. Four or five of them do hurling only, and another four or five do football only.
There should be about 15 more coming on board next year - they're the new refs this year, who were only doing Coiste na nÓg this year, but who should graduate to adult matches next year as well.
If you need three per fixture (referee plus two official linesmen), probably answers my earlier question about where you'd play those League matches, since probably wouldn't be enough to go around if all those games played individually at club grounds. One of the reasons why double-headers are played is it makes easier to have officials - e.g. somebody can referee the first match and do the line in the second one, or you could have the same linesmen at both.
Incidentally, another point on your initial suggestion about player grading, that the first half of the League (without inter-county players) wouldn't affect it, but the second half would - am afraid it's also a non-runner.
All those games would have to constitute either a League (i.e. a separate competition, where player grading isn't affected by any of them), or the round-robin stages of a championship, where every match would affect grading. You couldn't play half of it with one system and the other half with a different system.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2257 - 27/08/2023 21:00:03
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