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Wexford Football Championship

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Replying To Viking66:  "Improve things for who? The media? The spectators? What about improving the general standard of our countys playing pool?"
Viking, if you genuinely believe that having more teams in the senior grade would improve the counties playing pool, then why stop at 16?

Onfor15 (Wexford) - Posts: 418 - 29/08/2022 09:54:26    2438974

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There is no way at all that increasing the number of senior teams to 16 will improve things. Look at Kerry, bigger county geographically, and football dominated so in theory less overlap with having to accommodate dual clubs, yet they have their senior championship capped at eight clubs. I know they have the regional combined teams as well, but that's something that should be seriously considered here.

Have the dinosaur ACFL turned into something more tangible, whereby your performance in that determine your seeding in the championship. No need to conduct a championship draw so early as in the current format. Even something like if you win the league your guaranteed safety from relegation from your championship grade. Allow promotions so an up and coming lower grade team can improve themselves against higher-ranked sides.

Run off a districts championship in Oct-Nov, or maybe even the inter-county championship actually. I know you'll have the naysayers saying that the provincial championships start in the former time-frame, but that only affects a maximum of three clubs per code, and it'll only feature non-senior club players anyway. As for the latter timeframe, the majority of players in the county are largely sitting idle during then anyway.

WE NEED MORE QUALITY, MEANINGFUL GAMES NOT MORE TEAMS DILUTING IT.

One alarming thing I take from the weekend is the sheer volume of absentees across all the clubs. I believe St.James were the only senior side close to full-strength, and it can't be just a coincidence that so many lads, high-profile names too, decide to travel just when the football season is starting. There'd be a county board led enquiry if it was happening in hurling, but the game is being killed from within unknowingly.

However, there is simply no excuse for the likes of Starlights and St.Martins to be as ill-prepared as they looked, its not like they were given short-notice of the championship starting. Hurling exertions can't be offered as an excuse either- Ferns looked decent in their game.

beano (Wexford) - Posts: 1229 - 29/08/2022 10:43:38    2438986

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Replying To beano:  "There is no way at all that increasing the number of senior teams to 16 will improve things. Look at Kerry, bigger county geographically, and football dominated so in theory less overlap with having to accommodate dual clubs, yet they have their senior championship capped at eight clubs. I know they have the regional combined teams as well, but that's something that should be seriously considered here.

Have the dinosaur ACFL turned into something more tangible, whereby your performance in that determine your seeding in the championship. No need to conduct a championship draw so early as in the current format. Even something like if you win the league your guaranteed safety from relegation from your championship grade. Allow promotions so an up and coming lower grade team can improve themselves against higher-ranked sides.

Run off a districts championship in Oct-Nov, or maybe even the inter-county championship actually. I know you'll have the naysayers saying that the provincial championships start in the former time-frame, but that only affects a maximum of three clubs per code, and it'll only feature non-senior club players anyway. As for the latter timeframe, the majority of players in the county are largely sitting idle during then anyway.

WE NEED MORE QUALITY, MEANINGFUL GAMES NOT MORE TEAMS DILUTING IT.

One alarming thing I take from the weekend is the sheer volume of absentees across all the clubs. I believe St.James were the only senior side close to full-strength, and it can't be just a coincidence that so many lads, high-profile names too, decide to travel just when the football season is starting. There'd be a county board led enquiry if it was happening in hurling, but the game is being killed from within unknowingly.

However, there is simply no excuse for the likes of Starlights and St.Martins to be as ill-prepared as they looked, its not like they were given short-notice of the championship starting. Hurling exertions can't be offered as an excuse either- Ferns looked decent in their game."
With regard to the All County league, I can understand your first point, but the absence of intercounty players, not just senior but under 20 panelists aswell in both hurling and football means that clubs could be really understrength. That is why it would be completely unfair to have league results determine championship progression.

Definitely need to have promotion and relegation in the leagues, or else it simply isn't a league.

Onfor15 (Wexford) - Posts: 418 - 29/08/2022 11:50:15    2438994

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Beano, agree with some of what you say. Game is certainly being harmed by our own county board placing it after a long and gruelling hurling championship. No doubt that has led to absences across most clubs whether that be through injury, travel, etc.
Now you also say Starlights and St Martin's have no reason to be Ill prepared. I would say they have every reason to not be well prepared. St Martin's had one week to prepare for example with it being impossible to train for football during the hurling championship with it being week in week out. You may say Starlights had a couple of weeks extra but is that few weeks enough to be ready to put on a quality show of senior football? Players are being flogged to death and given no chance to perform at their best in current system.

Ciotog10 (Wexford) - Posts: 5 - 29/08/2022 11:53:34    2438996

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Replying To beano:  "There is no way at all that increasing the number of senior teams to 16 will improve things. Look at Kerry, bigger county geographically, and football dominated so in theory less overlap with having to accommodate dual clubs, yet they have their senior championship capped at eight clubs. I know they have the regional combined teams as well, but that's something that should be seriously considered here.

Have the dinosaur ACFL turned into something more tangible, whereby your performance in that determine your seeding in the championship. No need to conduct a championship draw so early as in the current format. Even something like if you win the league your guaranteed safety from relegation from your championship grade. Allow promotions so an up and coming lower grade team can improve themselves against higher-ranked sides.

Run off a districts championship in Oct-Nov, or maybe even the inter-county championship actually. I know you'll have the naysayers saying that the provincial championships start in the former time-frame, but that only affects a maximum of three clubs per code, and it'll only feature non-senior club players anyway. As for the latter timeframe, the majority of players in the county are largely sitting idle during then anyway.

WE NEED MORE QUALITY, MEANINGFUL GAMES NOT MORE TEAMS DILUTING IT.

One alarming thing I take from the weekend is the sheer volume of absentees across all the clubs. I believe St.James were the only senior side close to full-strength, and it can't be just a coincidence that so many lads, high-profile names too, decide to travel just when the football season is starting. There'd be a county board led enquiry if it was happening in hurling, but the game is being killed from within unknowingly.

However, there is simply no excuse for the likes of Starlights and St.Martins to be as ill-prepared as they looked, its not like they were given short-notice of the championship starting. Hurling exertions can't be offered as an excuse either- Ferns looked decent in their game."
I agree with nearly all of this.

I do however think 16 teams in senior football would still be competitive, look at Ballymurn result this weekend and in reality i dont see Horeswood/fethard and an other diluting or weakening senior football significantly but can see the logic on both sides of that argument though.

I thoroughly agree with all the rest.

The split season as it stands with the current format is going to go a long way towards killing off football in this county and perhaps thats half the plan with a lot of people. If the season was flipped and this was happening there would be emergency meeting left right and centre.

tearintom (Wexford) - Posts: 1006 - 29/08/2022 12:18:23    2439008

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Replying To Onfor15:  "Viking, if you genuinely believe that having more teams in the senior grade would improve the counties playing pool, then why stop at 16?"
Any more than 16 becomes logistically difficult as regards having time for fixtures. Also I've took on board lads on this complaints about there being too much of a gap in standard. I genuinely don't believe there's much of a gap in hurling or football between the bottom senior teams and the top Intermediate ones. There might be too much of a gap between the 20th ranked teams and the very top ones. But bottom line is the new rule is no more than 16 in any case.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 5742 - 29/08/2022 12:28:11    2439010

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Replying To beano:  "There is no way at all that increasing the number of senior teams to 16 will improve things. Look at Kerry, bigger county geographically, and football dominated so in theory less overlap with having to accommodate dual clubs, yet they have their senior championship capped at eight clubs. I know they have the regional combined teams as well, but that's something that should be seriously considered here.

Have the dinosaur ACFL turned into something more tangible, whereby your performance in that determine your seeding in the championship. No need to conduct a championship draw so early as in the current format. Even something like if you win the league your guaranteed safety from relegation from your championship grade. Allow promotions so an up and coming lower grade team can improve themselves against higher-ranked sides.

Run off a districts championship in Oct-Nov, or maybe even the inter-county championship actually. I know you'll have the naysayers saying that the provincial championships start in the former time-frame, but that only affects a maximum of three clubs per code, and it'll only feature non-senior club players anyway. As for the latter timeframe, the majority of players in the county are largely sitting idle during then anyway.

WE NEED MORE QUALITY, MEANINGFUL GAMES NOT MORE TEAMS DILUTING IT.

One alarming thing I take from the weekend is the sheer volume of absentees across all the clubs. I believe St.James were the only senior side close to full-strength, and it can't be just a coincidence that so many lads, high-profile names too, decide to travel just when the football season is starting. There'd be a county board led enquiry if it was happening in hurling, but the game is being killed from within unknowingly.

However, there is simply no excuse for the likes of Starlights and St.Martins to be as ill-prepared as they looked, its not like they were given short-notice of the championship starting. Hurling exertions can't be offered as an excuse either- Ferns looked decent in their game."
Who needs more quality meaningful games Beano? Who does this benefit?
I agree more meaningful games are desirable. In a 4 group 16 team championship there will be more knockout games relative to group games which by their very definition would be more meaningful.
Ferns were playing Bannow. I don't think Bannow will be challenging for promotion this year. Taghmon weren't missing any players due to travelling. 3 lads were injured ok. But the lads only had a couple of training sessions in football and are largely the same panel and team as the hurling panel and team with possibly only 1 addition. I'm not sure if that's the case with Ferns.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 5742 - 29/08/2022 12:37:23    2439013

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Replying To Viking66:  "Any more than 16 becomes logistically difficult as regards having time for fixtures. Also I've took on board lads on this complaints about there being too much of a gap in standard. I genuinely don't believe there's much of a gap in hurling or football between the bottom senior teams and the top Intermediate ones. There might be too much of a gap between the 20th ranked teams and the very top ones. But bottom line is the new rule is no more than 16 in any case."
Any more than 16 doesn't make it more logistically difficult in the slightest. There are still the same number of teams to be catered for, and the same number of fixtures each weekend. They'd just be playing each other in different grades.

The fact that you don't think there is much difference in standard between the weakest senior teams and the top intermediate teams is actually an argument to reduce the numbers in senior rather than increase.

10 teams in each grade (2 groups of 5) would allow each team a week off in the group stages.

Top team into semis
2nd v 3rd in quarters
4th finished
5th relegation final.

Onfor15 (Wexford) - Posts: 418 - 29/08/2022 13:13:41    2439017

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Replying To Viking66:  "Who needs more quality meaningful games Beano? Who does this benefit?
I agree more meaningful games are desirable. In a 4 group 16 team championship there will be more knockout games relative to group games which by their very definition would be more meaningful.
Ferns were playing Bannow. I don't think Bannow will be challenging for promotion this year. Taghmon weren't missing any players due to travelling. 3 lads were injured ok. But the lads only had a couple of training sessions in football and are largely the same panel and team as the hurling panel and team with possibly only 1 addition. I'm not sure if that's the case with Ferns."
I was referring to the absences across the board in the senior, our premier competition.

My point is I think 16 teams are too much. For example, say last year they decided to bring up the four intermediate semi-finalists in prep for a 16-team format this year. Maudlintown got beaten in the final, I'd say they'd be around the same standard as their Wexford town rivals. Maybe win a game here or there and might sneak a quarter-final occasionally but invariably contending towards the lower end of the championship, and would be even more hampered by the soccer season. Duffry got beaten by penalties in the semi-final. I don't foresee them being in contention in intermediate this year, nevermind making the hypothetical step up to senior. Naomh Eanna were the other beaten semi-finalist last year. They find it hard to balance the two codes as it is, although admittedly are potentially a sleeping giant. Had some lads more interested in going to a concert this weekend.

My point being, the senior championship is as competitive as we could ever hope for, and there isn't a thing wrong with the intermediate. In fact the twelve-team pathway in each grade is perfect as it stands. Can't let the odd team stinking the place out on a given year take from the fact there is generally all to play for by the final round of the group stages. The lack of quality isn't because there aren't enough teams playing senior, it's a county-board led dereliction of duty towards the sport.

And to answer a previous poster, how come Castletown (short players themselves) and Ferns (with all the post-match celebrations) can get their house in order for football championship, despite the former having a twelve-day gap between county final and first round, and the latter having thirteen days, but Starlights, with a week longer to recover, can't?

beano (Wexford) - Posts: 1229 - 29/08/2022 13:15:05    2439018

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Replying To Onfor15:  "With regard to the All County league, I can understand your first point, but the absence of intercounty players, not just senior but under 20 panelists aswell in both hurling and football means that clubs could be really understrength. That is why it would be completely unfair to have league results determine championship progression.

Definitely need to have promotion and relegation in the leagues, or else it simply isn't a league."
Well maybe stage them in down weeks for the county team, or midweek, and during the NFL/NHL when it's not the be all and end all (for most counties anyway). County managers can't dictate everything. There is no way a fella number 26-27 on a panel shouldn't be allowed play for his club in a league game just because he is needed to bulk up the numbers at county training.

beano (Wexford) - Posts: 1229 - 29/08/2022 13:17:58    2439020

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Replying To Onfor15:  "With regard to the All County league, I can understand your first point, but the absence of intercounty players, not just senior but under 20 panelists aswell in both hurling and football means that clubs could be really understrength. That is why it would be completely unfair to have league results determine championship progression.

Definitely need to have promotion and relegation in the leagues, or else it simply isn't a league."
Absolutely, re. the suggestion of league performance having an effect on the championship. A strong club could be short five or six players for the league, due to them being involved with county senior or U20 panels. Completely unfair then that their championship prospects would be at least partly determined by results of matches where they have to play without several of their top players, against other clubs who mightn't be short anybody for the same reason.

The promotion/relegation thing in the leagues is something that the clubs vote on each year, as is the next thing I'm about to post about here....

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 1037 - 29/08/2022 13:35:52    2439025

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Replying To Ciotog10:  "Beano, agree with some of what you say. Game is certainly being harmed by our own county board placing it after a long and gruelling hurling championship. No doubt that has led to absences across most clubs whether that be through injury, travel, etc.
Now you also say Starlights and St Martin's have no reason to be Ill prepared. I would say they have every reason to not be well prepared. St Martin's had one week to prepare for example with it being impossible to train for football during the hurling championship with it being week in week out. You may say Starlights had a couple of weeks extra but is that few weeks enough to be ready to put on a quality show of senior football? Players are being flogged to death and given no chance to perform at their best in current system."
Again, it was the clubs who voted for this structure this year, both in terms of their being two groups of six in both codes, and in terms of hurling being played first and football afterwards.

The system is not above criticism, but laying the blame at the feet of the County Board is misplaced.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 1037 - 29/08/2022 13:38:42    2439026

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Replying To beano:  "I was referring to the absences across the board in the senior, our premier competition.

My point is I think 16 teams are too much. For example, say last year they decided to bring up the four intermediate semi-finalists in prep for a 16-team format this year. Maudlintown got beaten in the final, I'd say they'd be around the same standard as their Wexford town rivals. Maybe win a game here or there and might sneak a quarter-final occasionally but invariably contending towards the lower end of the championship, and would be even more hampered by the soccer season. Duffry got beaten by penalties in the semi-final. I don't foresee them being in contention in intermediate this year, nevermind making the hypothetical step up to senior. Naomh Eanna were the other beaten semi-finalist last year. They find it hard to balance the two codes as it is, although admittedly are potentially a sleeping giant. Had some lads more interested in going to a concert this weekend.

My point being, the senior championship is as competitive as we could ever hope for, and there isn't a thing wrong with the intermediate. In fact the twelve-team pathway in each grade is perfect as it stands. Can't let the odd team stinking the place out on a given year take from the fact there is generally all to play for by the final round of the group stages. The lack of quality isn't because there aren't enough teams playing senior, it's a county-board led dereliction of duty towards the sport.

And to answer a previous poster, how come Castletown (short players themselves) and Ferns (with all the post-match celebrations) can get their house in order for football championship, despite the former having a twelve-day gap between county final and first round, and the latter having thirteen days, but Starlights, with a week longer to recover, can't?"
Add to that Horeswood and Taghmon, both of whom had fourteen days, but realistically less to prepare, and whom have a large turnover of players across both codes.

beano (Wexford) - Posts: 1229 - 29/08/2022 13:58:38    2439030

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Replying To Onfor15:  "Any more than 16 doesn't make it more logistically difficult in the slightest. There are still the same number of teams to be catered for, and the same number of fixtures each weekend. They'd just be playing each other in different grades.

The fact that you don't think there is much difference in standard between the weakest senior teams and the top intermediate teams is actually an argument to reduce the numbers in senior rather than increase.

10 teams in each grade (2 groups of 5) would allow each team a week off in the group stages.

Top team into semis
2nd v 3rd in quarters
4th finished
5th relegation final."
How does that get more players playing against the best players in the county and therefore improve their own standard?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 5742 - 29/08/2022 14:54:44    2439043

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Replying To beano:  "I was referring to the absences across the board in the senior, our premier competition.

My point is I think 16 teams are too much. For example, say last year they decided to bring up the four intermediate semi-finalists in prep for a 16-team format this year. Maudlintown got beaten in the final, I'd say they'd be around the same standard as their Wexford town rivals. Maybe win a game here or there and might sneak a quarter-final occasionally but invariably contending towards the lower end of the championship, and would be even more hampered by the soccer season. Duffry got beaten by penalties in the semi-final. I don't foresee them being in contention in intermediate this year, nevermind making the hypothetical step up to senior. Naomh Eanna were the other beaten semi-finalist last year. They find it hard to balance the two codes as it is, although admittedly are potentially a sleeping giant. Had some lads more interested in going to a concert this weekend.

My point being, the senior championship is as competitive as we could ever hope for, and there isn't a thing wrong with the intermediate. In fact the twelve-team pathway in each grade is perfect as it stands. Can't let the odd team stinking the place out on a given year take from the fact there is generally all to play for by the final round of the group stages. The lack of quality isn't because there aren't enough teams playing senior, it's a county-board led dereliction of duty towards the sport.

And to answer a previous poster, how come Castletown (short players themselves) and Ferns (with all the post-match celebrations) can get their house in order for football championship, despite the former having a twelve-day gap between county final and first round, and the latter having thirteen days, but Starlights, with a week longer to recover, can't?"
The 12 team system is better for us spectators hurling and kicking ball on the ditch or this forum. I'm not arguing with you on that. In fact an 8 or 10 team senior championship would probably be better again for us. I'm only proposing a 16 team championship to improve the players who might improve by playing on better opponents. And that's not neccessarily all the extra players, only the ones who think alot about the game they play and how they might play it better. And if only 2 or 3 of these actually made it to be top intercounty players because of this it would be worth it. Our Senior hurling team last year were probably only 2 or 3 more top players short of winning Leinster or at least beating Clare in the AIQF. And our footballers, who have become experts in losing every close League game I've been to the last few years, usually after being the better team but making a couple of really bad mistakes that led to goals conceded, would surely benefit from a few extra lads improving their games by playing on better opponents more often.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 5742 - 29/08/2022 15:02:58    2439046

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Replying To beano:  "Add to that Horeswood and Taghmon, both of whom had fourteen days, but realistically less to prepare, and whom have a large turnover of players across both codes."
Realistically both only had a week. And both have mostly the same 1st team in both codes. Martins, Shels etc probably that figure is nearer half. Castletown had players hurling in the final against Horeswood who won't be kicking Senior football for their 1st team I'd imagine also. Gorey looked like they had more than half of their football team who didn't hurl Senior club. The bigger clubs will always have that advantage at the start of their football season. Or should have. Hopefully it will be less of an advantage for them as the season proceeds.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 5742 - 29/08/2022 15:08:57    2439047

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sarsfields have the makings of a good team, will learn a lot from yesterday, they wont be in relegation this year id say

Stmunnsriver (Wexford) - Posts: 2422 - 29/08/2022 16:38:04    2439069

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "Again, it was the clubs who voted for this structure this year, both in terms of their being two groups of six in both codes, and in terms of hurling being played first and football afterwards.

The system is not above criticism, but laying the blame at the feet of the County Board is misplaced."
Why not appoint a committee to decide on championship structure then rather than clubs? Clubs pushing for this system either out of touch with players or couldn't give a damn about football. Because this system may suit a majority hurling club who doesn't have a high turnover of dual players but it certainly doesn't suit a club who relies on the same players for both and wants to put a good effort into both. While this is a democratic system in name, it is anything but in practicality. A great system if you want your county team and club players to be injured or burnt out though! Too many games in too short a time frame.

Ciotog10 (Wexford) - Posts: 5 - 29/08/2022 17:00:37    2439073

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Got to my first Football championship games on Sunday in Wexford Park. Crossabeg were fully deserving winners over Starlights. Starlights looked very disorganised and looked void of ideas. Paudie Foley was very good in midfield and up front Andy butler and Mark Byrne were very good. In the second game Sarsfields played very well for long parts only too concede soft goals at the end. Shels looked sluggish but done enough with Glen Malone and Brian Malone to the fore along with Tiernan Neville. Eoin Roche kicked some very good scores for Sarsfields.

WexMurph (Wexford) - Posts: 5 - 29/08/2022 18:00:11    2439086

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3 groups of 5
Top 5 in each group 2022 stay senior
Bottom 2 go into 3rd group
Made up of 2 bottom teams in 2022 and top 2 intermediate ie co finalists
Playoff between losing semi finalist to make up 5th spot
Format for 2023
Top 2 groups of 5
after round Robin
Top 3 into quater finals
4th place teams play off against top 2 in
group 3 done by open draw losers are out winners into senior quarter final
3rd and 4th in group 3 drop to intermediate where they play 4th place team into preliminary quarter final winners into intermediate quarter final proper Bottom team out and relegated to intermediate for following year
Bottom 2 in intermediate group 4 and 5 play relegation final
Bottom team in group 1 and 2 relegated into group 3 for following year intermediate finalists go up to group 3 for following year and again play off for 5th spot in group 3 between losing semi finalist in intermediate
Pluses a week off fo top 6 teams in both intermediate and senior gives more competitive games to group 3 where anyone in that group has chance of either senior or intermediate championships giving 15 teams chance of senior success without possibly dead rubber uncompetitive games in groups . Being relegated from top 2 group gives you a chance to regroup and build without dropping out entirely if yiu finish Bottom in group 3 you prob don't deserve to stay up after 2nd year . Could have play off for final spot in group with winner of intermediate semi final playoff either . Gives every team at least 5 games plus every game will count in round Robin.
Sounds complicated but it's not really .
Group 3 is kind of risk and reward giving intermediate teams chance to establish themselves and relegated teams a chance to rebuild .
Hurling would look like this
Group 1 ferns
Naomh eanna
Shels
Harriers
Crissabeg
Group 2 martins
Anne's
Glynn
Rapps
Oylgate
Group 3 oulart
Taghmon
Rathnure
Clouhhbawn
Alley or kilrush

Would whet my appetite anyway thats for sure iin each of the 3 groups only problem would take an extra week with preliminary quarter finals
Hard to see oulart or rathure agreeing but other 3 in group 3 would jump at the chance I d imagine

Formertownie (Wexford) - Posts: 14 - 29/08/2022 20:31:39    2439096

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