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Upcoming Special Congress

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Replying To legendzxix:  "If Ulster counties are happy enough for the qualifiers to sort out the cream rising to the latter stages, I'm ok with that.
I've said for years that the qualifier draws should be seeded based on the league.
Listening to my northern brethren, the solution seems to be a Final 16 in 4 groups of 4. Provincial winners guaranteed. The remaining 12 made up based on league placing and/or qualifiers."
Provincial winners guaranteed a spot with two of the provinces a non competition. And you come out with the cream rising to the top. No one's fault with the make up of provinces but the qualifiers take the advantage back a bit.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 1269 - 03/11/2021 11:54:08    2388258

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I have it said that that in the vote on Proposal B that quiet a few delegates from counties who were mandated to vote for Proposal B actually voted against it. If this is the case this is farcical. County votes should have been locked in as soon as a county decided on how to vote. At the very least all mandated votes should have been by public vote to ensure delegates who did not follow how they were supposedly obliged to vote were accountable for ignoring their mandate.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1060 - 03/11/2021 11:55:54    2388259

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Replying To Whammo86:  "To me that feels like it'd work well.

I think you'd also have to schedule the Provincials and League in parallel. That's crucial to the success of the new season in my eyes."
Hurling tried parallel competitions a few years back but it didn't gain traction and they reverted back.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6833 - 03/11/2021 12:54:42    2388267

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Hurling tried parallel competitions a few years back but it didn't gain traction and they reverted back."
It's different though if the 2 competitions have parity of esteem.

You couldn't have the All Ireland championship played in parallel to the other competitions but the league and provincials can go side by side.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3799 - 03/11/2021 13:39:36    2388274

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Replying To Whammo86:  "It's different though if the 2 competitions have parity of esteem.

You couldn't have the All Ireland championship played in parallel to the other competitions but the league and provincials can go side by side."
Playing the competitions in parallel is debatable. The league goes first as always next year, followed by the provincial championships when Division 3 and 4 counties will have to make the provincial finals.
Ideally the second tier would have groups of 4 as well, with a fair reward for the Tier 2 winner.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6833 - 03/11/2021 14:54:22    2388286

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "I have it said that that in the vote on Proposal B that quiet a few delegates from counties who were mandated to vote for Proposal B actually voted against it. If this is the case this is farcical. County votes should have been locked in as soon as a county decided on how to vote. At the very least all mandated votes should have been by public vote to ensure delegates who did not follow how they were supposedly obliged to vote were accountable for ignoring their mandate."
Luckily for GAA, people did vote against proposal B. If not we'd be stuck with a system that rewards lower level teams ahead or Div1 and 2 teams. The future is in the qualifiers where you have to earn your right to get to latter stages of championship.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 1269 - 03/11/2021 15:12:16    2388289

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Replying To Saynothing:  "Luckily for GAA, people did vote against proposal B. If not we'd be stuck with a system that rewards lower level teams ahead or Div1 and 2 teams. The future is in the qualifiers where you have to earn your right to get to latter stages of championship."
The national league would replace the qualifiers.

I think that's a very fair system.

National league with provincials played from February to Mid May then 2 tier 4 groups of 4 All Ireland series from Mid May to Mid July seems like a really good season to me.

Teams guaranteed 11 real fixtures.

Teams having to peak around the same time for the championship.

Yes Kerry and Dublin have an easy ride to provincial titles but all of division 1, All Ireland champions and the second tier champions have already qualified for the championship at the start of the season anyway.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3799 - 03/11/2021 18:00:26    2388326

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I like the Kerry SFC model - Rd of 16 had 11 clubs and 5 divisional teams.
Maybe the AIC could have the NFL top 12 as counties and 4 divisional teams (rest of each Prov).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2170 - 03/11/2021 18:06:08    2388328

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Replying To Saynothing:  "Luckily for GAA, people did vote against proposal B. If not we'd be stuck with a system that rewards lower level teams ahead or Div1 and 2 teams. The future is in the qualifiers where you have to earn your right to get to latter stages of championship."
Point I was making was the Congress vote was basically corrupted by what happened.
When a county at the county level voted for or against the proposal that should have been it, their Congress votes should have been locked in to vote that way.
Seems like a quiet a few congress delegates, who maybe think the provincial council model gives them a good chance for a provincial council job in the future (or maybe some were already involved with the provincial council) may have voted for what they think might be good for them rather than how they were mandated to vote.
This makes the decision making process a bit of a farce.
Some the announcements before hand that a county decided in favour of the proposal were in reality meaningless as some delegates hid behind the secret ballot to ignore their mandate.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1060 - 03/11/2021 19:06:56    2388339

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Replying To Saynothing:  "Luckily for GAA, people did vote against proposal B. If not we'd be stuck with a system that rewards lower level teams ahead or Div1 and 2 teams. The future is in the qualifiers where you have to earn your right to get to latter stages of championship."
'The future is in the qualifiers', you basically saying keep things as they are?(or were before the pandemic), that is a recipe for the for a lot of players in a lot of counties to opt out of inter county game. We have to give players more games in the premier football competition if we expect them to put in the huge commitment needed for inter county football. It was interesting hearing Dessie Dolan saying many of the best players in his club would not make themselves available for the inter county team.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1060 - 03/11/2021 19:19:45    2388342

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Replying To Saynothing:  "Luckily for GAA, people did vote against proposal B. If not we'd be stuck with a system that rewards lower level teams ahead or Div1 and 2 teams. The future is in the qualifiers where you have to earn your right to get to latter stages of championship."
The qualifiers have been dying the slow death for a decade, whatever the system a radical change is needed.

bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 04/11/2021 08:17:04    2388351

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "'The future is in the qualifiers', you basically saying keep things as they are?(or were before the pandemic), that is a recipe for the for a lot of players in a lot of counties to opt out of inter county game. We have to give players more games in the premier football competition if we expect them to put in the huge commitment needed for inter county football. It was interesting hearing Dessie Dolan saying many of the best players in his club would not make themselves available for the inter county team."
Obviously I think it's well worth the effort of trying to improve things but I do wonder if it is just the case that the organisation of the association into rigidly defined counties is actually the root problem.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3799 - 04/11/2021 09:45:33    2388353

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To be fair to the GAA, they wanted to ensure that 16 teams entered the Tailteann Cup. It didn't receive backing at Special Congress 2019. The halfway house of 16 league teams plus Division 3 and 4 provincial finalists was agreed.
16 teams might consider the Tailteann Cup in 4 groups of 4, if the winner was guaranteed a Final 16 place in the following year.
The Final 16 can consist of the 4 provincial winners, 11 league teams and the Tier 2 winner from the previous year.
The Tailteann Cup and U20 finals could be hosted in Croke Park on the day before the All-Ireland final.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6833 - 04/11/2021 09:48:34    2388354

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Replying To legendzxix:  "To be fair to the GAA, they wanted to ensure that 16 teams entered the Tailteann Cup. It didn't receive backing at Special Congress 2019. The halfway house of 16 league teams plus Division 3 and 4 provincial finalists was agreed.
16 teams might consider the Tailteann Cup in 4 groups of 4, if the winner was guaranteed a Final 16 place in the following year.
The Final 16 can consist of the 4 provincial winners, 11 league teams and the Tier 2 winner from the previous year.
The Tailteann Cup and U20 finals could be hosted in Croke Park on the day before the All-Ireland final."
I feel a lot of people would back this motion.

It's simple enough, reasonably fair qualifying criteria.

The championships themselves then make a lot of sense.

A big win is that it actually increases the number of games and the games added are ones between teams around the same level.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3799 - 04/11/2021 10:48:41    2388362

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "Point I was making was the Congress vote was basically corrupted by what happened.
When a county at the county level voted for or against the proposal that should have been it, their Congress votes should have been locked in to vote that way.
Seems like a quiet a few congress delegates, who maybe think the provincial council model gives them a good chance for a provincial council job in the future (or maybe some were already involved with the provincial council) may have voted for what they think might be good for them rather than how they were mandated to vote.
This makes the decision making process a bit of a farce.
Some the announcements before hand that a county decided in favour of the proposal were in reality meaningless as some delegates hid behind the secret ballot to ignore their mandate."
It has been like that for decades & not just for this special Congress, the whole thing at all levels is rotten.
Go back over the history & you will see everything from senior political figures coming to Congress & looking for certain agendas passed in return for further funding of projects to fellas hiding in toilets avoiding votes.
Ironically the senior people who wanted this Proposal B passed sat back & watched the opportunity to have transparency in voting, be destroyed & mocked. How that has backfired on them now.
You reap what you sow.

moc.dna (Galway) - Posts: 1212 - 04/11/2021 11:14:44    2388365

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "'The future is in the qualifiers', you basically saying keep things as they are?(or were before the pandemic), that is a recipe for the for a lot of players in a lot of counties to opt out of inter county game. We have to give players more games in the premier football competition if we expect them to put in the huge commitment needed for inter county football. It was interesting hearing Dessie Dolan saying many of the best players in his club would not make themselves available for the inter county team."
The reason many players won't commit to Inter County is because it has become all consuming.

GAA & GPA are looking for more & more games which means even greater pressures on players. Players will also be under extreme pressure from managers who are on large "expenses" & wanting results to justify their "expenses", they have no interest in player welfare & neither do the GAA, it is all about finance now.
The advent of Pro or Semi Pro is very close if more Inter County games are added as players would not be able to sustain the commitment needed for same. It will eventually be a Super 8 or 12 Pro set up & the rest of the counties as stands now or semi pro. It is heading the same road as League of Ireland & the Rugby scene when it went Pro years ago.
When it does go this way, it will lead to many dropping out of the Association, which was built on volunteerism & resulted in putting the GAA where it is today.

Many involved now are only in it for themselves & what they can get out of it, whether it's the manager at club level or county level cleaning out large sums of cash into their pockets & moving on, to the paid back room people & the people who are using the Association to advance themselves at local & national politics or climbing the GAA ladder. Huge vested interests making money, from TV Rights, Print Media, Social Media, Backroom Staff, full time staff of the Association, GPA with their percentage of all commercial revenue & their full time staff, these are all lobbying & dictating the direction of the Association, not the members.

Gone are the days of the volunteer, selflessness, togetherness, doing it for the love of it, not for what is out of it.
Personally I believe there should be less Inter County games over a shorter season, it allows players to have personal lives, play with their clubs & doesn't impinge on their mental & physical health.
The lack of leadership & the ability to be able to say no or to say stop, let's look at this in more detail & look at the pros & cons, means that Gaelic Football has become fragmented & destroyed by constant change. The only vestige of normality left is the Hurling which most football people now prefer to watch. Hurling is also now on the edge as there are more & more trying to add change annually to the game, they need to hold out as it is the last true spirit of the GAA left.

moc.dna (Galway) - Posts: 1212 - 04/11/2021 11:45:30    2388372

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I feel a lot of people would back this motion.

It's simple enough, reasonably fair qualifying criteria.

The championships themselves then make a lot of sense.

A big win is that it actually increases the number of games and the games added are ones between teams around the same level."
In such a scenario, I'd imagine provincial champions would be top seeds? Top 2 seeds in each group of both competitions rewarded with 2 home games?

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6833 - 04/11/2021 11:45:40    2388373

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Replying To legendzxix:  "To be fair to the GAA, they wanted to ensure that 16 teams entered the Tailteann Cup. It didn't receive backing at Special Congress 2019. The halfway house of 16 league teams plus Division 3 and 4 provincial finalists was agreed.
16 teams might consider the Tailteann Cup in 4 groups of 4, if the winner was guaranteed a Final 16 place in the following year.
The Final 16 can consist of the 4 provincial winners, 11 league teams and the Tier 2 winner from the previous year.
The Tailteann Cup and U20 finals could be hosted in Croke Park on the day before the All-Ireland final."
Your right about the GAA trying their best, but they can't make a bad team into winners. Lower teams want a token pass into championship, yet don't want qualifiers. Div 1 and 2 All Ireland, 3 an4 Tailteann cup or else Div 3 and 4 play off matches and last 4 or 8 join the other 16 for All Ireland. Although the status quo does the job.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 1269 - 04/11/2021 11:47:20    2388374

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Obviously I think it's well worth the effort of trying to improve things but I do wonder if it is just the case that the organisation of the association into rigidly defined counties is actually the root problem."
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Now Whammo , steady on there. We will have enough trouble with borders in the near future without you making jokey comments!

Can you imagine trying to move part of Tyrone into Derry or vice versa.
In any case the GAA lads would ignore it. Dillon, father of a future FG leader (they really do have form) , moved Ballaghaderreen from Mayo into Roscommon in the 1890's.
The local club weren't having it - much to the Rossies continuing displeasure.
Ask Andy Moran about it!

Q. Do the22 Tailteann winners get into the champo in 23 ?
Q2 What Prop B was voted on - permanent change or 2 year trial?

timmyhogan (UK) - Posts: 290 - 04/11/2021 14:07:17    2388388

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There is a format where there could be 20 teams in 5 groups of 4;
Week 1: 5v1, 2v3
Week 2: 4v5
Week 3: 1v2, 3v4
Week 4: 5v3
Week 5: 2v5, 1v4
Week 6: 3v1, 4v2.
All teams get 2 home games and no team plays more than 2 weeks in a row.
Top 2 to quarter-finals. The league would have to be restructured so that teams play no more than 6 matches.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6833 - 04/11/2021 15:01:08    2388394

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