National Forum

Upcoming Special Congress

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


Replying To legendzxix:  "In such a scenario, I'd imagine provincial champions would be top seeds? Top 2 seeds in each group of both competitions rewarded with 2 home games?"
I think you'd do it so that each group has a provincial champion but also that top 4 teams from the league are kept apart.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3799 - 04/11/2021 15:07:28    2388395

Link

Haven't posted on this thread in a while. If provincial championships are going to be accommodated in any new format I don't think they should be given equal status for obvious reasons. The runners up in Ulster and Leinster (and possibly third ranked there) should be given a leg up in a way.
Proposal B is probably the framework moving on but appeasing all sides is going to be a massive issue.

whoareya (Donegal) - Posts: 75 - 04/11/2021 15:51:08    2388404

Link

Replying To whoareya:  "Haven't posted on this thread in a while. If provincial championships are going to be accommodated in any new format I don't think they should be given equal status for obvious reasons. The runners up in Ulster and Leinster (and possibly third ranked there) should be given a leg up in a way.
Proposal B is probably the framework moving on but appeasing all sides is going to be a massive issue."
I think Option B needs to be dispensed with. I think they need to start again. If they do that then they have a completely blank canvas. Play the existing structures for one more year and give those who are developing a new structure the time and space to try to accommodate the different criteria in the new structure. I believe the National League should be retained as a stand alone competition.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5796 - 04/11/2021 16:44:00    2388413

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "I think you'd do it so that each group has a provincial champion but also that top 4 teams from the league are kept apart."
The following achieves this for the All-Ireland Final 16;
Pot 1: Provincial winners. Home v 2 and 3.
Pot 2: League teams 1 to 4. Home v 3 and 4.
Pot 3: League teams 5 to 8. Home v 4.
Pot 4: League teams 9 to 12. Home v 1.

The Tailteann Cup;
Pot 1: League teams 13 to 16. Home v 2 and 3.
Pot 2: League teams 17 to 20. Home v 3 and 4.
Pot 3: League teams 21 to 24. Home v 4.
Pot 4: League teams 25 to 28. Home v 1.

* League ranking 1 to 28 is based on teams outside of the provincial winners.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6832 - 04/11/2021 18:05:00    2388422

Link

Replying To whoareya:  "Haven't posted on this thread in a while. If provincial championships are going to be accommodated in any new format I don't think they should be given equal status for obvious reasons. The runners up in Ulster and Leinster (and possibly third ranked there) should be given a leg up in a way.
Proposal B is probably the framework moving on but appeasing all sides is going to be a massive issue."
I'd make the provincial entry for winners only. It would be very hard to take if any team won a provincial championship but didn't get knock out All Ireland football - the current system that also advances the provincial runner up often due to an easier draw or less competitive province is the unfairest part of the setup in my opinion.

Proposal B with provincial champions advanced rather than Div 3 & 4 teams is the way ahead for me. I'd be in favour of that even if there were oddities like the 6th best team in the country being left out.

Better still - if the league is becoming the championship we should go back to the 1A & 1B / 2A & 2B formats. That would make it a lot easier to seed say the top 8/10 teams (or however many to make it competitive) along with the provincial champions.

I hadn't posted here for a while either - I guess we'll wait and see what the powers that be come back with.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 189 - 05/11/2021 09:51:55    2388442

Link

Bringing back Div 2A and 2B means that current 4th Div teams have no chance of a trophy or promotion.
KEEP DIVISION 4 please!!

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 369 - 05/11/2021 11:05:17    2388451

Link

Lessons can be learned from hurling? 2 even leagues of 6 each in Division 1. At least 2 home games in the championship group stage.

Football league;
Division 1: 2 groups of 6. Top team in each group into the final. Bottom team in each group relegated.
Division 2: 2 groups of 6. Top team in each group into the final and both promoted. Bottom team in each group relegated.
Division 3: 2 groups of 4. Top team in each group into the final and both promoted. (Possibly allow some cross group games to guarantee at least 4 or 5 games each.)

Football championship;
20 teams: 4 provincial winners, 1 Tier 2 winner from previous year and 15 highest league teams.
4 groups of 5. Top 2 into quarter-finals.

Tailteann Cup;
2 groups of 6. Top 2 into semi-finals.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6832 - 05/11/2021 11:13:47    2388452

Link

Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Bringing back Div 2A and 2B means that current 4th Div teams have no chance of a trophy or promotion.
KEEP DIVISION 4 please!!"
Couldn't agree less.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3799 - 05/11/2021 13:56:38    2388477

Link

Replying To brianb:  "I'd make the provincial entry for winners only. It would be very hard to take if any team won a provincial championship but didn't get knock out All Ireland football - the current system that also advances the provincial runner up often due to an easier draw or less competitive province is the unfairest part of the setup in my opinion.

Proposal B with provincial champions advanced rather than Div 3 & 4 teams is the way ahead for me. I'd be in favour of that even if there were oddities like the 6th best team in the country being left out.

Better still - if the league is becoming the championship we should go back to the 1A & 1B / 2A & 2B formats. That would make it a lot easier to seed say the top 8/10 teams (or however many to make it competitive) along with the provincial champions.

I hadn't posted here for a while either - I guess we'll wait and see what the powers that be come back with."
I think proposal B and work from there would be the way forward. Be a lot of hassle starting again and trying to get something else through.

A quick idea thrown together, proposal B mixed with McGuinness's proposal!
Proposal B and then at end of league campaign:

Pot A: 1-8 Top 5/6 in 1 and top 2/3 in 2 - home advantage in last 16 knock out
Pot B: 9-14 Provincial winners and runners up in Ulster and Leinster 15/16 Div. 3 and 4 winners.

Obviously if some of 9-14/16 are in Pot A (likely) then use league places to replace starting from Div.1.

Div 3 & 4 teams remaining in Tailteann Cup, same promotion and relegation applies.

whoareya (Donegal) - Posts: 75 - 05/11/2021 14:55:16    2388484

Link

Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Bringing back Div 2A and 2B means that current 4th Div teams have no chance of a trophy or promotion.
KEEP DIVISION 4 please!!"
They have the B All-Ireland. Why keep please keep div 4? Div 4 teams aren't too concerned over that trophy, promotion to a high division is the prize as was the case this year and no Div 4 trophy was on ofter.

Gaa_lover (USA) - Posts: 2902 - 05/11/2021 15:47:49    2388490

Link

Replying To Gaa_lover:  "They have the B All-Ireland. Why keep please keep div 4? Div 4 teams aren't too concerned over that trophy, promotion to a high division is the prize as was the case this year and no Div 4 trophy was on ofter."
That's the case with all the lower football divisions. The top 2 are more intent on promotion than the trophy. There's no appetite for only promoting the division winner as in hurling.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6832 - 06/11/2021 10:39:02    2388523

Link

Replying To Gaa_lover:  "They have the B All-Ireland. Why keep please keep div 4? Div 4 teams aren't too concerned over that trophy, promotion to a high division is the prize as was the case this year and no Div 4 trophy was on ofter."
Read my post again Buckeen.
I said Trophy or Promotion.
And how many times do you think D4 teams will win Tailteann?

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 369 - 06/11/2021 12:12:02    2388535

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "Obviously I think it's well worth the effort of trying to improve things but I do wonder if it is just the case that the organisation of the association into rigidly defined counties is actually the root problem."
Could the future be that the country will be carved up into units of equal GAA playing populations ? Some counties could be retained, others merged and a few sub divided. However it's done, I'd just like to see attractive regional and national competitions.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2170 - 06/11/2021 12:17:59    2388537

Link

Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Read my post again Buckeen.
I said Trophy or Promotion.
And how many times do you think D4 teams will win Tailteann?"
It's more important for those teams to not get cut adrift.

The teams that get promoted from division 4 often have a shot in division 3.

There are teams like Waterford and London have no shot at a Tailteann cup but they also have no shot in division 4 either. Waterford haven't had a winning season in division 4 since they were relegated back down 10 years ago.

Playing against teams in that 17-24th standard every year would be more beneficial for Antrim than a division 4 title.

I feel there'd be a few teams each year not to standard but mostly that it'd be quite a competitive championship otherwise.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3799 - 06/11/2021 12:54:21    2388540

Link

Replying To brianb:  "I'd make the provincial entry for winners only. It would be very hard to take if any team won a provincial championship but didn't get knock out All Ireland football - the current system that also advances the provincial runner up often due to an easier draw or less competitive province is the unfairest part of the setup in my opinion.

Proposal B with provincial champions advanced rather than Div 3 & 4 teams is the way ahead for me. I'd be in favour of that even if there were oddities like the 6th best team in the country being left out.

Better still - if the league is becoming the championship we should go back to the 1A & 1B / 2A & 2B formats. That would make it a lot easier to seed say the top 8/10 teams (or however many to make it competitive) along with the provincial champions.

I hadn't posted here for a while either - I guess we'll wait and see what the powers that be come back with."
I like the latter there, Brianb = Top 4 in each of 1A/1B to Tier 1 AI Series (plus any Prov Champ not in those 8).

1) Would you like the Top 4 in each of 2A/2B merged with Bottom 4 in each of 1A/1B for a cracking Mid 16 Tier 2 AIC (or just leave 2A/2B play for Tier 2) ?

2) Would you prefer to keep Tier 1 playoffs, and separately Tier 2, as strictly KO, or have a 2nd chance reward for some teams (like 2021 Liam McC 'last 8', or 2017/2022 Sam Mag 'last 16') ?

Div 4 teams have a good chance of attaining 4th in 2A/2B as well on the road to either 8- or 16-team Tier 2 playoffs.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2170 - 06/11/2021 13:28:04    2388544

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "Lessons can be learned from hurling? 2 even leagues of 6 each in Division 1. At least 2 home games in the championship group stage.

Football league;
Division 1: 2 groups of 6. Top team in each group into the final. Bottom team in each group relegated.
Division 2: 2 groups of 6. Top team in each group into the final and both promoted. Bottom team in each group relegated.
Division 3: 2 groups of 4. Top team in each group into the final and both promoted. (Possibly allow some cross group games to guarantee at least 4 or 5 games each.)

Football championship;
20 teams: 4 provincial winners, 1 Tier 2 winner from previous year and 15 highest league teams.
4 groups of 5. Top 2 into quarter-finals.

Tailteann Cup;
2 groups of 6. Top 2 into semi-finals."
I really like that, legendzxix - neat, simple, crisp - with smaller league groups to accommodate larger AIC ones.

I think the 5-team groups in hurling have worked better than 4-team groups in football's Super 8.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2170 - 06/11/2021 13:33:25    2388545

Link

Replying To omahant:  "Could the future be that the country will be carved up into units of equal GAA playing populations ? Some counties could be retained, others merged and a few sub divided. However it's done, I'd just like to see attractive regional and national competitions."
No chance. Counties won't even move province in football. 90% voted against it!

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6832 - 06/11/2021 13:36:05    2388546

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "The following achieves this for the All-Ireland Final 16;
Pot 1: Provincial winners. Home v 2 and 3.
Pot 2: League teams 1 to 4. Home v 3 and 4.
Pot 3: League teams 5 to 8. Home v 4.
Pot 4: League teams 9 to 12. Home v 1.

The Tailteann Cup;
Pot 1: League teams 13 to 16. Home v 2 and 3.
Pot 2: League teams 17 to 20. Home v 3 and 4.
Pot 3: League teams 21 to 24. Home v 4.
Pot 4: League teams 25 to 28. Home v 1.

* League ranking 1 to 28 is based on teams outside of the provincial winners."
That's good too - plenty to play for in the league with the 7 of 8 seeding pots up for grabs. On balance, I prefer your other idea with 4 groups of 5 AIC.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2170 - 06/11/2021 13:37:28    2388547

Link

Replying To omahant:  "That's good too - plenty to play for in the league with the 7 of 8 seeding pots up for grabs. On balance, I prefer your other idea with 4 groups of 5 AIC."
Yeah, I'm leaning in favour of the 4 groups of 5. I've even worked out the fixtures so that teams don't play more than 2 weekends in-a-row;
Week 1: 5v1, 2v3
Week 2: 4v5
Week 3: 1v2, 3v4
Week 4: 5v3
Week 5: 2v5, 1v4
Week 6: 3v1, 4v2.
The disadvantage of being the lowest seed is that you do not play on the final day. An incentive to earn a higher seeding. If provincial winners are in Pot 1, they will have home advantage against their Pot 2 opponent.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6832 - 06/11/2021 14:21:48    2388550

Link

Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Read my post again Buckeen.
I said Trophy or Promotion.
And how many times do you think D4 teams will win Tailteann?"
And read back on my post bucko.

Promotion is what matters most to any Div 4 team not a trophy. Gives them the opportunity to fare off against higher ranked teams. With Div 2A 2B in place they will get that opportunity straight away and have the opportunity to get promoted to Div 2A.

The current league structure of Div 1,2,3,4 has played its part in creating a gap between the top 5 and the rest. If that format had become championship as proposal B was going to be things would only become worse.

Gaa_lover (USA) - Posts: 2902 - 06/11/2021 16:16:25    2388558

Link