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Replying To legendzxix:  "Yeah, I'm leaning in favour of the 4 groups of 5. I've even worked out the fixtures so that teams don't play more than 2 weekends in-a-row;
Week 1: 5v1, 2v3
Week 2: 4v5
Week 3: 1v2, 3v4
Week 4: 5v3
Week 5: 2v5, 1v4
Week 6: 3v1, 4v2.
The disadvantage of being the lowest seed is that you do not play on the final day. An incentive to earn a higher seeding. If provincial winners are in Pot 1, they will have home advantage against their Pot 2 opponent."
And 4th seed bye in week 1; all teams alternate home and away; and 4th/5th also disadvantaged with two back to backs, while the other three only has one. Maybe this is better than you intended? !

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2170 - 06/11/2021 16:35:47    2388561

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Correction - 1 & 4 don't fully alternate - but still good.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2170 - 06/11/2021 16:44:35    2388563

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Replying To omahant:  "Correction - 1 & 4 don't fully alternate - but still good."
The intention is 5 not playing on the final day and 4 not playing on the first day. You want your first 2 games to be home and away and your second 2 games to be home and away.
Week 2 and Week 4 are suitable for hurling big weekends as the hurling championship is on-going simultaneously.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6833 - 06/11/2021 21:11:42    2388593

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The intention is 5 not playing on the final day and 4 not playing on the first day. You want your first 2 games to be home and away and your second 2 games to be home and away.
Week 2 and Week 4 are suitable for hurling big weekends as the hurling championship is on-going simultaneously."
I guess one thing about this solution and also the 4 groups of 4 solution is that they split the field into 4, so you get fewer games between the top teams.

My favourite answer to the championship question has always been 2 tiers of 2 groups of 8.

A way of doing that and allowing all teams a shot at qualifying would be.

Tier 1:

Top 3 from each group to playoffs with top placed teams straight to semifinals.

4th in each group qualified for the following season.

5th hosts 6th from the other group to get 2 other qualification spots for the following season.

7th and 8th don't qualify for the next season automatically.

Tier 2 finalists qualify for the following season's tier 1.

That leaves 12 teams starting each season qualified for Tier 1.

Those 12 play a National league of 2 groups of 6.

The other 20 teams play the All Ireland qualifiers.

4 groups of 5. Top 2 in each group to final qualifying round where top teams host 2nd placed teams. 4 winners complete tier 1 line up.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3799 - 07/11/2021 14:26:02    2388628

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Just a thought for people who think only a few teams are equipped to win the All Ireland. Start looking at your local club championships, seem more and more county championships are being won by the same club year after year. GAA can't be blamed for that.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 1269 - 07/11/2021 17:17:58    2388646

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I guess one thing about this solution and also the 4 groups of 4 solution is that they split the field into 4, so you get fewer games between the top teams.

My favourite answer to the championship question has always been 2 tiers of 2 groups of 8.

A way of doing that and allowing all teams a shot at qualifying would be.

Tier 1:

Top 3 from each group to playoffs with top placed teams straight to semifinals.

4th in each group qualified for the following season.

5th hosts 6th from the other group to get 2 other qualification spots for the following season.

7th and 8th don't qualify for the next season automatically.

Tier 2 finalists qualify for the following season's tier 1.

That leaves 12 teams starting each season qualified for Tier 1.

Those 12 play a National league of 2 groups of 6.

The other 20 teams play the All Ireland qualifiers.

4 groups of 5. Top 2 in each group to final qualifying round where top teams host 2nd placed teams. 4 winners complete tier 1 line up."
Having two even groups in the league e.g. Division 1A and 1B in hurling reduces the number of games between the top teams as well.
With the round robin in the hurling provincial championships, Division 1A should be the top 6 teams. Top 2 into the final and the bottom team relegated to 1B. Division 1B should be the next 6 teams. Top 2 into the final, winner promoted and the bottom team relegated to 1B.
I would only be in favour of even groups in the football league where league is being used for championship qualification. Example of the below:

National Football League:
Div. 1 (Top 12)
A.B
1.1 - Final
2.2
3.3
4.4
5.5
6.6 - Both relegated.*

Div. 2
A.B
1.1 - Final and both promoted. (Top 14)
2.2 - Possible 16th place playoff.
3.3 - Possible 18th place playoff.
4.4 - Possible 20th place playoff.
5.5 - Both relegated.

Div. 3
A.B
1.1 Final, both promoted and 15th playoff.
2.2
3.3
4.4
5.5

* Division 1 is where all teams want to be. All Division 1 teams and the teams being promoted to Division 1 should be a part of the All-Ireland group stage.

Provincial Championships:
Current knockout. No further explanation required!

All-Ireland Championship:
20 teams = 4 provincial winners, 15 league teams and previous year's Tailteann winner.
A.B.C.D
1.1.1.1 - Quarter-finals
2.2.2.2 - Quarter-finals
3.3.3.3
4.4.4.4
5.5.5.5

Tailteann Cup:
12 teams = all remaining Division 2 and 3 counties.
A.B
1.1 - Semi-finals
2.2 - Semi-finals
3.3
4.4
5.5
6.6

Under this proposal, the All-Ireland series would consist of 12 Division 1 teams, 6 Division 2 teams (due to provincial winners most likely being of a high league placing) and at least 1 Division 3 team.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6833 - 07/11/2021 20:09:49    2388672

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Replying To Saynothing:  "Just a thought for people who think only a few teams are equipped to win the All Ireland. Start looking at your local club championships, seem more and more county championships are being won by the same club year after year. GAA can't be blamed for that."
You claimed a few days ago the qualifiers work, you're in no position to be giving anyone advice.

bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 07/11/2021 21:20:10    2388682

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Replying To wexico15:  "You claimed a few days ago the qualifiers work, you're in no position to be giving anyone advice."
They do and will, lucky for some.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 1269 - 07/11/2021 21:33:16    2388684

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I feel a better championship would be along the lines of the Kelly proposal but after provincial championship to go back to the standings from the league so that's 4 divisions of 8 teams open draw then 1 team from each division drawn in to 8 group's of 4 gives all teams a chance to play for Sam so when 3 group games are played top 2 continue on to play for Sam in last 16 straight knockout from then on bottom 2 teams play for tailteann Cup straight knockout also

Sinbin (Wicklow) - Posts: 10 - 07/11/2021 21:50:47    2388689

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Replying To Saynothing:  "They do and will, lucky for some."
Need to get your hand out of the sand.

bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 07/11/2021 21:54:17    2388690

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Replying To wexico15:  "Need to get your hand out of the sand."
*head*

bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 07/11/2021 21:54:51    2388691

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Replying To wexico15:  "*head*"
Tails

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 1269 - 08/11/2021 08:33:49    2388702

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Replying To omahant:  "I like the latter there, Brianb = Top 4 in each of 1A/1B to Tier 1 AI Series (plus any Prov Champ not in those 8).

1) Would you like the Top 4 in each of 2A/2B merged with Bottom 4 in each of 1A/1B for a cracking Mid 16 Tier 2 AIC (or just leave 2A/2B play for Tier 2) ?

2) Would you prefer to keep Tier 1 playoffs, and separately Tier 2, as strictly KO, or have a 2nd chance reward for some teams (like 2021 Liam McC 'last 8', or 2017/2022 Sam Mag 'last 16') ?

Div 4 teams have a good chance of attaining 4th in 2A/2B as well on the road to either 8- or 16-team Tier 2 playoffs."
Good questions

1) Would you like the Top 4 in each of 2A/2B merged with Bottom 4 in each of 1A/1B for a cracking Mid 16 Tier 2 AIC (or just leave 2A/2B play for Tier 2) --- ? That could be a good competition alright. The big thing for me is to have something tangible to play for. So perhaps if the top 4 of this competition were in Division 1A / 1B the following year it could work well. I would have a concern that that would dilute the prize on offer for the bottom tier 8 teams competition. I am a big believer that there should be fluid promotion / relegation between the football tiers. So if we went back to a 1A / 1B structure I'd like to see up to 3/4 teams go up and down each year. The fairest way I can think of to do this would be to have the bottom 3 teams in Tier 1A & B play off with 2 teams relegated automatically - replaced by the Tier 2 winner and runner up. I'd add a 3rd spot or even a 4th spot via a playoff between the semi finalists in Tier 2 and the 1A relegation play-off winners

2) Would you prefer to keep Tier 1 playoffs, and separately Tier 2, as strictly KO, or have a 2nd chance reward for some teams (like 2021 Liam McC 'last 8', or 2017/2022 Sam Mag 'last 16') ? --- There is less a need for a second chance if you have the seedings in the competition right. Your second chance is through the provincial route.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 189 - 08/11/2021 09:44:51    2388714

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Replying To moc.dna:  "The reason many players won't commit to Inter County is because it has become all consuming.

GAA & GPA are looking for more & more games which means even greater pressures on players. Players will also be under extreme pressure from managers who are on large "expenses" & wanting results to justify their "expenses", they have no interest in player welfare & neither do the GAA, it is all about finance now.
The advent of Pro or Semi Pro is very close if more Inter County games are added as players would not be able to sustain the commitment needed for same. It will eventually be a Super 8 or 12 Pro set up & the rest of the counties as stands now or semi pro. It is heading the same road as League of Ireland & the Rugby scene when it went Pro years ago.
When it does go this way, it will lead to many dropping out of the Association, which was built on volunteerism & resulted in putting the GAA where it is today.

Many involved now are only in it for themselves & what they can get out of it, whether it's the manager at club level or county level cleaning out large sums of cash into their pockets & moving on, to the paid back room people & the people who are using the Association to advance themselves at local & national politics or climbing the GAA ladder. Huge vested interests making money, from TV Rights, Print Media, Social Media, Backroom Staff, full time staff of the Association, GPA with their percentage of all commercial revenue & their full time staff, these are all lobbying & dictating the direction of the Association, not the members.

Gone are the days of the volunteer, selflessness, togetherness, doing it for the love of it, not for what is out of it.
Personally I believe there should be less Inter County games over a shorter season, it allows players to have personal lives, play with their clubs & doesn't impinge on their mental & physical health.
The lack of leadership & the ability to be able to say no or to say stop, let's look at this in more detail & look at the pros & cons, means that Gaelic Football has become fragmented & destroyed by constant change. The only vestige of normality left is the Hurling which most football people now prefer to watch. Hurling is also now on the edge as there are more & more trying to add change annually to the game, they need to hold out as it is the last true spirit of the GAA left."
I don't think reforms which meant more games in the premier competitions will have much of an impact one way or another in terms of the all consuming nature of the inter county game, after any changes the day to day commitment will likely be similar. It's more about reorientating the season so give players more games in the premier competitions and increase the ratio of these games to training sessions.
There is dangers of professionalism are real but the reality is a high profile inter county game is needed to help attract kids to play the game.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1060 - 08/11/2021 19:32:39    2388820

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Obviously I think it's well worth the effort of trying to improve things but I do wonder if it is just the case that the organisation of the association into rigidly defined counties is actually the root problem."
The demographic differences between counties obviously make it harder to have a balanced competitive championship. But even if we had more balanced teams playing the structure would still be flawed so it's kind of a separate debate.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1060 - 08/11/2021 19:45:31    2388824

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Provincial Round Robin;
Munster: 1 group of 4. Top 2 to final.
Connaught: 1 group of 4. Top 2 to final.
Ulster: 2 groups of 4. Top 2 to semi-finals.
Leinster: 2 groups of 4. Top 2 to semi-finals.

Tailteann Cup;
Connaught/Munster: 1 group of 4. Top 2 to semi-finals.
Leinster/Ulster: 1 group of 4. Top 2 to semi-finals.

Provincial Qualification Equity;
2/6 Munster, 2/6 Connaught, 3/9 Ulster, 4/11 Leinster and the Tailteann Cup winner advance to the All-Ireland series.

All-Ireland Preliminary Quarter-finals;
4 provincial runners-up, Tailteann Cup winner, 2 Leinster losing semi-finalists and Ulster 3rd place playoff winner. 4 winners advance to join the provincial champions in the Quarter-finals.

Tailteann Cup promotion / Provincial relegation;
1. Tailteann Cup semi-finalists promoted.
2. Where 2 teams from the same province make the Tailteann semi-finals, that will be a semi-final pairing and only the winner is promoted.
3. 2, 3 or 4 teams from different provinces will be promoted.
4. Where a team is promoted, the bottom team in their provincial championship is relegated.

What about New York?;
As New York have been a part of the Connaught Championship for years, the 3rd placed team in Connaught can take on New York in a one off Challenge Cup final or whatever anyone wants to call it!

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6833 - 09/11/2021 12:13:08    2388887

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Provincial Round Robin;
Munster: 1 group of 4. Top 2 to final.
Connaught: 1 group of 4. Top 2 to final.
Ulster: 2 groups of 4. Top 2 to semi-finals.
Leinster: 2 groups of 4. Top 2 to semi-finals.

Tailteann Cup;
Connaught/Munster: 1 group of 4. Top 2 to semi-finals.
Leinster/Ulster: 1 group of 4. Top 2 to semi-finals.

Provincial Qualification Equity;
2/6 Munster, 2/6 Connaught, 3/9 Ulster, 4/11 Leinster and the Tailteann Cup winner advance to the All-Ireland series.

All-Ireland Preliminary Quarter-finals;
4 provincial runners-up, Tailteann Cup winner, 2 Leinster losing semi-finalists and Ulster 3rd place playoff winner. 4 winners advance to join the provincial champions in the Quarter-finals.

Tailteann Cup promotion / Provincial relegation;
1. Tailteann Cup semi-finalists promoted.
2. Where 2 teams from the same province make the Tailteann semi-finals, that will be a semi-final pairing and only the winner is promoted.
3. 2, 3 or 4 teams from different provinces will be promoted.
4. Where a team is promoted, the bottom team in their provincial championship is relegated.

What about New York?;
As New York have been a part of the Connaught Championship for years, the 3rd placed team in Connaught can take on New York in a one off Challenge Cup final or whatever anyone wants to call it!"
Having the provincials be the main determinant of the All Ireland make is just out of step with the direction that most want to move in.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3799 - 09/11/2021 15:08:21    2388918

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Having the provincials be the main determinant of the All Ireland make is just out of step with the direction that most want to move in."
They were offered a weak provincial option. Provincial Qualification Equity can provide a vibrant provincial championship. Counties will have to be of reasonable standard to compete in their provincial championship.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6833 - 09/11/2021 17:49:41    2388949

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Replying To legendzxix:  "They were offered a weak provincial option. Provincial Qualification Equity can provide a vibrant provincial championship. Counties will have to be of reasonable standard to compete in their provincial championship."
It's too much of a link to the All Ireland is the problem.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3799 - 10/11/2021 10:46:54    2388989

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Replying To Whammo86:  "It's too much of a link to the All Ireland is the problem."
Hurling has retained the provincial championships and All-Ireland Series.
4/6 Munster teams, 4/6 Connaught teams, 8/9 Ulster teams and 8/11 Leinster teams competing in their provincial championships seems fair.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6833 - 10/11/2021 12:04:18    2389000

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