National Forum

Football Championship 2021

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Replying To foreveryoung:  "I wouldn't know the ins and outs of resources in each county. I know a little about Limk and Tipp only.

When I mention resources, I mean everything a county has at its disposal to put its team on the pitch. If as you say Cork has more clubs and players than any other county, it would seem that those resources are not being well utilized. Let's not go back too far, but a county with such resources has averaged about one AI senior football per decade over the last 50 years. I'm not concerned with underage. Underage players are potential resources for senior success, and as such are already included in my definition. Neither is it my business as to why this is the situation in Cork. It is up to Cork itself to get its house in order. I can only base my observations on what I see produced in front of me on the pitch...intermediate standard.

Neither am I concerned with hurling.

My comment and proposal are an effort to try to make Gaelic football a competitive, watchable championship. At the moment it is a laughable, unwatchable farce. Name one good game that has been played since the championship started. Louth vs Offaly???"
I don't completely disagree. I think, and have thought for years,that the provincial need to be abolished. However, I think NO county should be excluded from winning Sam in a given year.

In Cork we might have a TINY chance of winning the All Ireland this year buy we have absolutely ZERO interest in a B championship. ABSOLUTELY NONE. I imagine other counties feel the same. With that in mind how will relegating us help football in the county with most clubs? You are right, we might not manage it as well but the reasons for that are layered/complex...Relegation would not help..

And as somebody else mentioned, Kerry and Dublin are well ahead of the rest and their financial resources dwarf everybody else's. If you really want a competitive championship based on resources then you would draw a line after those teams and relegate 30 teams..

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3855 - 11/07/2021 15:53:54    2358617

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "Par Spillane talking some rubbish here. It is easy to remove provincials from All-Ireland because it is a broken system. Money may help but it make Leitrim competitive. They have 24 clubs and a small pool of players to pick from. Cora Staunton is right. Hurling, camogie, and ladies football all have tiers. Men's football is the only one which persists with this rubbish."
Puke punditry from Pat

TearsIn85 (Monaghan) - Posts: 120 - 11/07/2021 15:56:55    2358619

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To those that believe in splitting Dublin.. Surely applying the same principle the likes of Mayo should be split also? There's a notion that everyone should be able to compete in a fair Championship. What does fair look like to teams like Sligo and Leitrim?

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1170 - 11/07/2021 15:57:01    2358620

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So even without a raft of players either through injury or covid, Mayo steamroll past Leitrim. Did that hammering do Mayo or Leitrim any good? No

Anyone against a tiered championship needs their head examined.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 10796 - 11/07/2021 15:58:55    2358621

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Replying To ONdeDITCH:  "The football championship has been a disaster competitively so far.It needs to be dispensed with in its present format.The sooner we have amalgamated teams the better and we can look fwd to a real championship...one worthy of the name!
And the Dublin situation...well we know what needs to be done there.....the nettle needs to be grasped by Croke Park."
Are Limerick not financially backed by a Billionaire ?

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 10796 - 11/07/2021 16:00:58    2358622

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Replying To bennybunny:  "I don't completely disagree. I think, and have thought for years,that the provincial need to be abolished. However, I think NO county should be excluded from winning Sam in a given year.

In Cork we might have a TINY chance of winning the All Ireland this year buy we have absolutely ZERO interest in a B championship. ABSOLUTELY NONE. I imagine other counties feel the same. With that in mind how will relegating us help football in the county with most clubs? You are right, we might not manage it as well but the reasons for that are layered/complex...Relegation would not help..

And as somebody else mentioned, Kerry and Dublin are well ahead of the rest and their financial resources dwarf everybody else's. If you really want a competitive championship based on resources then you would draw a line after those teams and relegate 30 teams.."
Counties absolutely should be excluded from winning Sam Maguire if they are not good enough.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 354 - 11/07/2021 16:14:42    2358626

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Replying To Ban:  "To those that believe in splitting Dublin.. Surely applying the same principle the likes of Mayo should be split also? There's a notion that everyone should be able to compete in a fair Championship. What does fair look like to teams like Sligo and Leitrim?"
What about looking to the likes of golf and horseracing and having some kind of handicapping?

What if Leitrim had started today with12 points on the board? What if no one knew the spread in advance and it appeared on the scoreboard just before throw-in?

This would allow the weaker counties compete with the big boys in a meaningful way, and reduce the handicap as they progress / get better.

Would also force better teams to chase the game, leaving attacking opportunities for the minnows.

Of course the downside might be that the minnows just develop a 'park the bus' mindset to defend a 'lead', so maybe not such a hot solution.

TearsIn85 (Monaghan) - Posts: 120 - 11/07/2021 16:26:22    2358631

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Replying To ONdeDITCH:  "The football championship has been a disaster competitively so far.It needs to be dispensed with in its present format.The sooner we have amalgamated teams the better and we can look fwd to a real championship...one worthy of the name!
And the Dublin situation...well we know what needs to be done there.....the nettle needs to be grasped by Croke Park."
i see limerick folks dont understand the word hypocrisy

Stmunnsriver (Wexford) - Posts: 2091 - 11/07/2021 16:29:40    2358632

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Replying To bennybunny:  "I don't completely disagree. I think, and have thought for years,that the provincial need to be abolished. However, I think NO county should be excluded from winning Sam in a given year.

In Cork we might have a TINY chance of winning the All Ireland this year buy we have absolutely ZERO interest in a B championship. ABSOLUTELY NONE. I imagine other counties feel the same. With that in mind how will relegating us help football in the county with most clubs? You are right, we might not manage it as well but the reasons for that are layered/complex...Relegation would not help..

And as somebody else mentioned, Kerry and Dublin are well ahead of the rest and their financial resources dwarf everybody else's. If you really want a competitive championship based on resources then you would draw a line after those teams and relegate 30 teams.."
Why are we being trown in to the same bracket as dublin? We haven't won an allireland since 2014 and we've won 1 allireland in 12 years.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 13454 - 11/07/2021 16:35:13    2358634

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A few years ago people were outraged with games going to sky, thinking they should all be on free to air to promote our games.

The best way to promote it at the minute is to scrap all tv coverage until all Ireland semi finals. What kind of weirdo even sits down no watches these mismatches?

Greenfield (Meath) - Posts: 455 - 11/07/2021 16:38:45    2358637

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Replying To Greenfield:  "A few years ago people were outraged with games going to sky, thinking they should all be on free to air to promote our games.

The best way to promote it at the minute is to scrap all tv coverage until all Ireland semi finals. What kind of weirdo even sits down no watches these mismatches?"
So no games should be shown on TV in a time where the vast majority of supporters can't attend?

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 10796 - 11/07/2021 16:54:01    2358646

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Replying To bennybunny:  "I don't completely disagree. I think, and have thought for years,that the provincial need to be abolished. However, I think NO county should be excluded from winning Sam in a given year.

In Cork we might have a TINY chance of winning the All Ireland this year buy we have absolutely ZERO interest in a B championship. ABSOLUTELY NONE. I imagine other counties feel the same. With that in mind how will relegating us help football in the county with most clubs? You are right, we might not manage it as well but the reasons for that are layered/complex...Relegation would not help..

And as somebody else mentioned, Kerry and Dublin are well ahead of the rest and their financial resources dwarf everybody else's. If you really want a competitive championship based on resources then you would draw a line after those teams and relegate 30 teams.."
The system would not be based on resources, but rather on merit; the current standing of each county. After the first year it would be easy enough; two up, two down.

Calling it B doesn't help. We don't call 'intermediate level', level B at club level, do we? And Cork, and any other disgruntled erstwhile senior teams, would of course have a chance to win Sam: Win the intermediate and move up senior. That's a logical, quite simple process. Cork would not be relegated per se. They would be put at their appropriate level. Putting them at the junior level would be seen as a relegation alright.

If a team isn't capable of winning the intermediate championship, what business does it have of challenging for Sam?

What right have the likes of Leitrim, Limerick, Louth, Carlow, etc. of calling themselves SENIOR championship teams, when they've never or almost never been at that level? Move them to a level where they and their supporters have some chance of success, and move them out of the way of the big steamroller that kills them year in, year out.

A two-tier system isn't remedy enough. We need senior, intermediate and junior.

foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 658 - 11/07/2021 17:40:57    2358671

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Replying To TearsIn85:  "What about looking to the likes of golf and horseracing and having some kind of handicapping?

What if Leitrim had started today with12 points on the board? What if no one knew the spread in advance and it appeared on the scoreboard just before throw-in?

This would allow the weaker counties compete with the big boys in a meaningful way, and reduce the handicap as they progress / get better.

Would also force better teams to chase the game, leaving attacking opportunities for the minnows.

Of course the downside might be that the minnows just develop a 'park the bus' mindset to defend a 'lead', so maybe not such a hot solution."
In what sense would it be meaningful if weak teams are still effectively losing the game by being outscored by the opposition and and only "win" due to having a headstart?

CastleBravo (Meath) - Posts: 1460 - 11/07/2021 17:56:54    2358691

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Replying To Tacaí Liatroma:  "You've missed 5 goals since you left the couch! You've missed out!"
Think you've missed the point.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4727 - 11/07/2021 18:38:00    2358719

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Replying To yew_tree:  "So even without a raft of players either through injury or covid, Mayo steamroll past Leitrim. Did that hammering do Mayo or Leitrim any good? No

Anyone against a tiered championship needs their head examined."
Sligo are better than I thought going on today's result.

endgame (Roscommon) - Posts: 1527 - 11/07/2021 18:48:41    2358722

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Replying To Greenfield:  "A few years ago people were outraged with games going to sky, thinking they should all be on free to air to promote our games.

The best way to promote it at the minute is to scrap all tv coverage until all Ireland semi finals. What kind of weirdo even sits down no watches these mismatches?"
Weirdos from Leitrim and Mayo?

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 6278 - 11/07/2021 19:29:18    2358731

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Replying To CastleBravo:  "In what sense would it be meaningful if weak teams are still effectively losing the game by being outscored by the opposition and and only "win" due to having a headstart?"
Well, in a few senses.....

Weaker teams have a fighting chance of progressing through a competition, potentially helping solve the 'they don't get enough games to improve' problem.

Stronger teams have to really make an effort if they are to win, so must field the best available team, hence adding a degree of respect for the weaker opposition, which is sometimes missing.

Ask the same question from a golfer. Is that not meaningful when a weaker golfer can 'beat' a stronger one, based on the balancing or equalizing nature of handicaps?

Any of the 'solutions' I've seen all have positives but a lot of negatives and detractors. Was just wondering if another kind of approach that has worked very well in other sports would be worth exploring.

TearsIn85 (Monaghan) - Posts: 120 - 11/07/2021 19:40:41    2358733

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Replying To foreveryoung:  "The system would not be based on resources, but rather on merit; the current standing of each county. After the first year it would be easy enough; two up, two down.

Calling it B doesn't help. We don't call 'intermediate level', level B at club level, do we? And Cork, and any other disgruntled erstwhile senior teams, would of course have a chance to win Sam: Win the intermediate and move up senior. That's a logical, quite simple process. Cork would not be relegated per se. They would be put at their appropriate level. Putting them at the junior level would be seen as a relegation alright.

If a team isn't capable of winning the intermediate championship, what business does it have of challenging for Sam?

What right have the likes of Leitrim, Limerick, Louth, Carlow, etc. of calling themselves SENIOR championship teams, when they've never or almost never been at that level? Move them to a level where they and their supporters have some chance of success, and move them out of the way of the big steamroller that kills them year in, year out.

A two-tier system isn't remedy enough. We need senior, intermediate and junior."
Having a tiered system is a lazy ,overly simplistic, solution to the competitiveness issues. It will never, NEVER, work unless counties accept it. We will never accept a B grade competition in Cork. I doubt Cavan and Tipp players would swap their medals from last year for some B grade competition. But that is for them to decide.
As Tommy Murphy showed it is doomed to fail.


Also you never addressed where you draw the line ? How many teams would you allow into Senior? Only Dublin and Kerry have a chance of winning it. Let's be realistic. Donegal, Tyrone will struggle against them. Donegal and Tyrone are miles better than Division 4 side Leitrim (but not it seems miles better than Division 3 side Derry). However, with Dublin and Kerry around they will end up with the same number of All Irelands as Leitrim . NONE.


Arey you suggesting a two team championship? What would the point in that be? Tiering the championship will not eliminate hammering s but what hwill happen to those that are relegated and they will be relegated...they'll be forgotten about which will widen the competiveness issues even further

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3855 - 11/07/2021 19:48:25    2358735

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Replying To yew_tree:  "Are Limerick not financially backed by a Billionaire ?"
Limerick hurling is, Limerick football hasn't got a fraction of the funding hurling has gotten down through the years. If only those outside of Limerick knew the work Billy Lee has done and the hardship he is putting himself through to improve Limerick football he doesn't get the credit nationally he deserves.

DUALSUPPORT (Limerick) - Posts: 1033 - 11/07/2021 19:51:16    2358736

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Replying To yew_tree:  "So no games should be shown on TV in a time where the vast majority of supporters can't attend?"
People not being able to attend is a separate issue.

If the games are being televised in an effort to boost the profile of the games, then it seems to be a huge failure.
The majority of the commentary after the televised games is negative. I don't see how that is promoting our games or making them an attractive proposition.

People have pointed out on here that hammerings have always happened in the championship and to an extent they did. But they weren't televised as widely and as a result the games weren't up there to be shot at.

Greenfield (Meath) - Posts: 455 - 11/07/2021 19:52:53    2358737

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