National Forum

Football Championship 2021

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Replying To bennybunny:  "I don't completely disagree. I think, and have thought for years,that the provincial need to be abolished. However, I think NO county should be excluded from winning Sam in a given year.

In Cork we might have a TINY chance of winning the All Ireland this year buy we have absolutely ZERO interest in a B championship. ABSOLUTELY NONE. I imagine other counties feel the same. With that in mind how will relegating us help football in the county with most clubs? You are right, we might not manage it as well but the reasons for that are layered/complex...Relegation would not help..

And as somebody else mentioned, Kerry and Dublin are well ahead of the rest and their financial resources dwarf everybody else's. If you really want a competitive championship based on resources then you would draw a line after those teams and relegate 30 teams.."
I somehow think you are seriously out of touch with the reality that has the weaker counties in the state they are in. To abolish the provincials is not going to address the problems.
I think NO county should be excluded from winning Sam in a given year. - - - All of the weaker counties at least are not within an ass's roar of competing for Sam so they are excluded before a ball is kicked.
In Cork we might have a TINY chance of winning the All Ireland this year buy we have absolutely ZERO interest in a B championship. ABSOLUTELY NONE.

After looking at the stats I can understand why here are some
Football.
All Ireland Titles 46 Senior 7
U- 21 11
Minor 11 Junior 16 NFL 8
Munster titles. 120 Senior - 35 U 21 - 27 Minor 30 Junior - 28
All stars 64
Hurling.
All Ireland Titles. 78 Senior 30
U - 21 11
Minor 18
Intermediate 8 Junior 11 NHL Titles 14 Munster Titles 126
Senior 52 U -21 19 Minor 32 Junior 21
So I can understand why, - "we have absolutely ZERO interest in a B championship. ABSOLUTELY NONE"
Elitism comes to mind. .

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2442 - 12/07/2021 14:36:13    2359025

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Replying To supersub15:  "If a team isn't capable of winning the intermediate championship, what business does it have of challenging for Sam?

What right have the likes of Leitrim, Limerick, Louth, Carlow, etc. of calling themselves SENIOR championship teams, they've never or almost never been at that level? Move them to a level where they and their supporters have some chance of success, and move them out of the way of the big steamroller that kills them year in, year out.

A two-tier system isn't remedy enough. We need senior, intermediate and junior.
foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 430 - 11/07/2021 17:40:57 2358

As far as I am aware we didn't have any input into whether we were being called SENIOR or not, from what I gather it was bestowed on us by the same people who ignore the plight of Gaelic football and the state it's in, if I were you I would readdress your comment to those in control and can do something about it.
"
Apologies Supersub and any other county fans that I may have annoyed. My wording wasn't what I should be. However, I was replying to a poster who seems to believe that Cork should have the right to be senior, regardless of whether it is up to that ability or not.

So, let me readdress what I meant, in the words of Joe Brolly: " It is enraging that the GAA inflicts this humiliation year in year out on small counties that are working so hard to keep communities healthy and playing the games."

I think this is a more appropriate way of wording what's wrong with our totally lop-sided championship.

foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 658 - 12/07/2021 15:23:54    2359050

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Replying To yew_tree:  "And I was not having a dig. I love watching Limerick and was delighted when ye made the breakthrough after so much heartbreak but the post by a Limerick fan having a pop at Dublins money seemed a bit rich...."
Fair enough, I don't believe Dublin's success is down to money but come on there is a big difference between JP McManus sponsoring Limerick and the money Dublin received from the GAA which the last poster was referring to, there is more than us with big financial backing Kerry, Tipperary, Galway and Wexford are counties that have big financial backers that I know of. JP McManus has being very generous to all counties outside of Limerick too with his donations in 2018. Also local charities in Limerick are never short of anything from his donations and he makes sure the money is used correctly. Not only JP McManus but other business people have being very good to Limerick JP's brother Gerry sponsors the hurling academy and also Charlie Chawke, the Moran's and Fitzgerald's families have been very good to Limerick.

DUALSUPPORT (Limerick) - Posts: 1033 - 12/07/2021 15:26:27    2359054

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Replying To Ban:  "
Replying To AfricanGael:  "The only thing that should be split is the people running this farce, the GAA hierarchy. "
Maybe we are at this crossroads because of the success of the GAA?"
Maybe read a bit of what your own county man John Connellan wrote and come back to me.

Don't get mixed up between the GAA and the GAA hierarchy, two completely different things, and don't ignore the grant aided aspect.

For me the real people of the GAA are the people on the ground and those Leitrim lads who were humiliated yesterday, not the big wigs in HQ who continue to line their pockets with big salaries or the yes men at congress, too afraid to speak up and do something about the farce.

The whole organization needs reforming, not just the football Championship.

The organization which cant organize, an Irish joke.

AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1946 - 12/07/2021 15:30:50    2359055

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Replying To foreveryoung:  "
Replying To supersub15:  "If a team isn't capable of winning the intermediate championship, what business does it have of challenging for Sam?

What right have the likes of Leitrim, Limerick, Louth, Carlow, etc. of calling themselves SENIOR championship teams, they've never or almost never been at that level? Move them to a level where they and their supporters have some chance of success, and move them out of the way of the big steamroller that kills them year in, year out.

A two-tier system isn't remedy enough. We need senior, intermediate and junior.
foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 430 - 11/07/2021 17:40:57 2358

As far as I am aware we didn't have any input into whether we were being called SENIOR or not, from what I gather it was bestowed on us by the same people who ignore the plight of Gaelic football and the state it's in, if I were you I would readdress your comment to those in control and can do something about it.
"
Apologies Supersub and any other county fans that I may have annoyed. My wording wasn't what I should be. However, I was replying to a poster who seems to believe that Cork should have the right to be senior, regardless of whether it is up to that ability or not.

So, let me readdress what I meant, in the words of Joe Brolly: " It is enraging that the GAA inflicts this humiliation year in year out on small counties that are working so hard to keep communities healthy and playing the games."

I think this is a more appropriate way of wording what's wrong with our totally lop-sided championship."
Ah don't worry about it foreveryoung (USA) - you meant well, I do agree one or two Cork posters seem to think they have a right to whatever suits them. - Thanks again.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2442 - 12/07/2021 20:47:53    2359159

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Replying To AfricanGael:  "
Replying To Ban:  "[quote=AfricanGael:  "The only thing that should be split is the people running this farce, the GAA hierarchy. "
Maybe we are at this crossroads because of the success of the GAA?"
Maybe read a bit of what your own county man John Connellan wrote and come back to me.

Don't get mixed up between the GAA and the GAA hierarchy, two completely different things, and don't ignore the grant aided aspect.

For me the real people of the GAA are the people on the ground and those Leitrim lads who were humiliated yesterday, not the big wigs in HQ who continue to line their pockets with big salaries or the yes men at congress, too afraid to speak up and do something about the farce.

The whole organization needs reforming, not just the football Championship.

The organization which cant organize, an Irish joke."]I read John Connellan's piece many months ago and while we are from the same County I do prefer to form my own opinion on things.
Is there anything else you'd like me to do?

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1170 - 12/07/2021 20:52:46    2359168

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Replying To Ban:  "Do you think Mayo and Leitrim is a fair game when you consider population and resources? I'm curious to see how people feel about this? Everyone is quick to point to Dublin's advantages! The way I see it, there are advantages everywhere and if splitting Dublin is seen as a solution then why focus on them alone?"
There is a critical mass needed to mount an effective challenge. Leitrim, Longford and probably Carlow (as a dual county) don't have enough in the modern game to have any realistic chance of success in current provincial structure, the league or all ireland series. History would suggest Fermanagh would fall in to that bucket too.

After that....

Sligo has more people than Roscommon. 19/20 times I would expect Roscommon to beat Sligo....most of the time by 10+ points.

You could say the same for Antrim versus Tyrone, Armagh, Donegal, Monaghan.....and in many other years pretty much any other Ulster county.

You need resources, you need population, you need effective CB and the last bit is less measurable.....but its maybe interest or culture. You need the people to go to games, join clubs, want to play, want to win, want to fund raise, coach youngsters and give up lots of time doing all the above.

Gator (Monaghan) - Posts: 214 - 12/07/2021 21:12:04    2359174

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Replying To Ban:  "
Replying To AfricanGael:  "[quote=Ban:  "[quote=AfricanGael:  "The only thing that should be split is the people running this farce, the GAA hierarchy. "
Maybe we are at this crossroads because of the success of the GAA?"
Maybe read a bit of what your own county man John Connellan wrote and come back to me.

Don't get mixed up between the GAA and the GAA hierarchy, two completely different things, and don't ignore the grant aided aspect.

For me the real people of the GAA are the people on the ground and those Leitrim lads who were humiliated yesterday, not the big wigs in HQ who continue to line their pockets with big salaries or the yes men at congress, too afraid to speak up and do something about the farce.

The whole organization needs reforming, not just the football Championship.

The organization which cant organize, an Irish joke."]I read John Connellan's piece many months ago and while we are from the same County I do prefer to form my own opinion on things.
Is there anything else you'd like me to do?"]John Connellan was dealing in facts, not opinions.

AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1946 - 12/07/2021 21:44:36    2359186

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Replying To AfricanGael:  "
Replying To Ban:  "[quote=AfricanGael:  "[quote=Ban:  "[quote=AfricanGael:  "The only thing that should be split is the people running this farce, the GAA hierarchy. "
Maybe we are at this crossroads because of the success of the GAA?"
Maybe read a bit of what your own county man John Connellan wrote and come back to me.

Don't get mixed up between the GAA and the GAA hierarchy, two completely different things, and don't ignore the grant aided aspect.

For me the real people of the GAA are the people on the ground and those Leitrim lads who were humiliated yesterday, not the big wigs in HQ who continue to line their pockets with big salaries or the yes men at congress, too afraid to speak up and do something about the farce.

The whole organization needs reforming, not just the football Championship.

The organization which cant organize, an Irish joke."]I read John Connellan's piece many months ago and while we are from the same County I do prefer to form my own opinion on things.
Is there anything else you'd like me to do?"]John Connellan was dealing in facts, not opinions."]The sad facts about Connellan findings are the lies that he was told and us all. We were told the money was being done more fairly sinc 2018 and I believed that too but when Connellan looked to see the figures that was not the case at all. I agree that the top brass of the gaa are not honest.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 2687 - 12/07/2021 22:02:19    2359197

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Replying To Gator:  "There is a critical mass needed to mount an effective challenge. Leitrim, Longford and probably Carlow (as a dual county) don't have enough in the modern game to have any realistic chance of success in current provincial structure, the league or all ireland series. History would suggest Fermanagh would fall in to that bucket too.

After that....

Sligo has more people than Roscommon. 19/20 times I would expect Roscommon to beat Sligo....most of the time by 10+ points.

You could say the same for Antrim versus Tyrone, Armagh, Donegal, Monaghan.....and in many other years pretty much any other Ulster county.

You need resources, you need population, you need effective CB and the last bit is less measurable.....but its maybe interest or culture. You need the people to go to games, join clubs, want to play, want to win, want to fund raise, coach youngsters and give up lots of time doing all the above."
You need 6 changes to sort it out

1. Strategic plan drawn up for each county specific to its needs ( needs to be done centrally based on best practice form other counties)
2. Resources pooled in weaker counties (Sligo, Leitrim/Fermanagh sharing an S&C programme, video analysis team etc)
3. Amalgamation of counties at underage (inter county championship with top teams and regional teams ala Kerry county championship) -this to incorporate splitting some counties to have additional city teams at underage
4. Tiered adult senior championship with late entry to senior tier for winners of B championship (and potentially C championship)
5. League style championship with playoffs to reward excellence yet guarantee all teams 18 games a season from Feb-June
6. Switch current funding imbalance in favour of weaker counties -travel expenses to be paid from central funds and S&C coaching/video analysis paid from central funds to lower tier counties

If the GAA leadership enforced the above we would get somewhere close to being a fair association

In addition some innovation at local level would help
E.g - why has no county yet tried to combat Relative Age Effect and rotate the cut off date for underage football to try and expand the pool of players who get access to their own underage teams and schools of excellence?

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 869 - 13/07/2021 03:12:26    2359238

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Interesting stuff, tirawleybaron.

Very small suggestion from me. If you want to keep the provincial championships but make them competitive, maybe add counties to the various rounds based on leage position or whatever. Example: Connacht: Leitrim vs Sligo, winners play Roscommon, winners play Galway, winners play Mayo. Or in Leinster, put the lowest 6 teams in league in round 1, let the three winners play Kildare, Laois and Meath, and the winners would join Dublin in the semi-finals. Or maybe even stick Dublin right into the final.

This sort of thing has been done before:
1941 Munster championship: Tipp beat Waterford, then lost to Clare who went on to beat Cork and then lost to Kerry; one game in each round, basically.
1965 Connacht Senior Football Championship: Galway were placed in the final. They went on to win the All-Ireland by playing just three games.
1980 Munster championship: Kerry got a bye to the final, Cork got a bye to the semi-finals, the other four teams played two first round games and a quarter-final, where the margins of victory in those games were two points, one point and one point, and there was a draw. (Then Limerick got riddled by Cork who got riddled by Kerry, but it was better than playing one game and getting hammered in it.) Kerry went on to win the All-Ireland by playing just three games.
1996 Leinster Senior Football Championship: Carlow, Wexford, Longford and Wicklow played two first round and one second round games before the quarter-finals, with the winners joining the other seven teams on the quarter-finals. The following year it was Westmeath, Wexford, Longford and Offaly, who went on to win five games and the Leinster championship for the first time in 15 years. This system lasted another year, but 2000 it was replaced with a round robin; another good idea I think.
Connacht Senior Club Hurling Championship until 2007-08: The Galway champions got a bye to the final, with the other four teams contesting two quarter-finals and one semi-final.

Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 652 - 13/07/2021 12:19:20    2359350

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Replying To tirawleybaron:  "You need 6 changes to sort it out

1. Strategic plan drawn up for each county specific to its needs ( needs to be done centrally based on best practice form other counties)
2. Resources pooled in weaker counties (Sligo, Leitrim/Fermanagh sharing an S&C programme, video analysis team etc)
3. Amalgamation of counties at underage (inter county championship with top teams and regional teams ala Kerry county championship) -this to incorporate splitting some counties to have additional city teams at underage
4. Tiered adult senior championship with late entry to senior tier for winners of B championship (and potentially C championship)
5. League style championship with playoffs to reward excellence yet guarantee all teams 18 games a season from Feb-June
6. Switch current funding imbalance in favour of weaker counties -travel expenses to be paid from central funds and S&C coaching/video analysis paid from central funds to lower tier counties

If the GAA leadership enforced the above we would get somewhere close to being a fair association

In addition some innovation at local level would help
E.g - why has no county yet tried to combat Relative Age Effect and rotate the cut off date for underage football to try and expand the pool of players who get access to their own underage teams and schools of excellence?"
Really good post. Great suggestions. The sceptic in me tells me nothing will be done.

Gator (Monaghan) - Posts: 214 - 13/07/2021 13:11:38    2359368

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There should be 2 tiers- 16 teams in both and straight knockout. The provincials should be kept and are used to quality to tier 1 (Munster and Connacht finalists and Leinster and Ulster semi finalists)

More counties qualify from Ulster as there are better quality teams and Leinster because there are a lot of counties in that province

The 4 remaining teams qualify through qualifiers

Qualifiers consist of the 20 remaining counties. First round has the 8 preliminary round losers from each provincial championship (excluding New York)
Second round has the quarter finalists of Leinster and Ulster as well as first round winners. Third round is the 8 winners from second round and 4 winners advance to tier 1

All qualifier losers are in tier 2

Tier 1 and Tier 2 championships are open draw and straight knockout

GAA2424 (Cork) - Posts: 4 - 13/07/2021 17:31:40    2359479

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How about keep the qualifiers but play them first?

Qualifiers: open draw, seeded, let the bigger teams join later, group stages, whatever: play it until four teams are left. These four teams qualify for the All-Ireland quarter-finals.

Provincial championships: play them afterwards, and the four champions qualify for the All-Ireland quarter-finals.

If any team qualifies through both paths, that team goes straight to the semi-finals and there's one fewer quarter-final.

Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 652 - 13/07/2021 22:01:20    2359584

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Predictions.
Leinster SFC.
Dublin
Kildare

Ulster SFC
Tyrone
Monaghan.

MicktheMiller (Offaly) - Posts: 382 - 16/07/2021 10:16:26    2360316

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Predictions.
Leinster SFC.
Meath
Westmeath

Ulster SFC
Donegal
Monaghan.

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 17747 - 16/07/2021 10:32:52    2360321

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Predictions

Leinster...
Dublin
Kildare

Ulster...
Donegal
Armagh

tyroneed (Tyrone) - Posts: 743 - 16/07/2021 10:48:20    2360329

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Replying To GAA2424:  "There should be 2 tiers- 16 teams in both and straight knockout. The provincials should be kept and are used to quality to tier 1 (Munster and Connacht finalists and Leinster and Ulster semi finalists)

More counties qualify from Ulster as there are better quality teams and Leinster because there are a lot of counties in that province

The 4 remaining teams qualify through qualifiers

Qualifiers consist of the 20 remaining counties. First round has the 8 preliminary round losers from each provincial championship (excluding New York)
Second round has the quarter finalists of Leinster and Ulster as well as first round winners. Third round is the 8 winners from second round and 4 winners advance to tier 1

All qualifier losers are in tier 2

Tier 1 and Tier 2 championships are open draw and straight knockout"
What will that do for the Leitrim's of this world, absolutely nothing.

The first thing I'll say to you is that there are at least 3 grades, not two.

The GAA hierarchy haven't a clue but you know what, let them drive it into the ground.

AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1946 - 16/07/2021 11:34:16    2360351

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Predictions

Leinster...
Dublin
Kildare

Ulster...
Tyrone
Armagh

Byanthon (Tyrone) - Posts: 1695 - 16/07/2021 13:43:49    2360408

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Replying To Byanthon:  "Predictions

Leinster...
Dublin
Kildare

Ulster...
Tyrone
Armagh"
predictions westmeath dublin monaghan tyrone

mickcunningham (Westmeath) - Posts: 1346 - 16/07/2021 14:11:59    2360417

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