National Forum

Provincial Championships

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q23yPOOik7U&t=639s

The above video (9:20 minutes on) gives what I think would be the best structure. There is some warranty in keeping the provincials especially for teams like Tipp and Cavan.

hopballref (Galway) - Posts: 318 - 14/01/2021 15:33:27    2327410

Link

Replying To Saynothing:  "Said before, play leagues and the team at top wins it, none of this Final of league nonsense. After league 8 groups of 4 with 1 from each league . Top 2 teams go on to last 16 open draw. It gives lower teams at least 3 matches and a chance to play top teams."
Would agree 100% with you, Saynothing.
Structure would work as you said.

But as you have top 16 knock-out for All Ireland c/ship I would have bottom 16 play knock out in Tailteann Cup.

novalis (Carlow) - Posts: 277 - 14/01/2021 17:40:31    2327438

Link

Replying To KillingFields:  "Why not?
A huge number of sports have them.
Why not do it.
The sport isnt big. Its 2 sports played in one small country only bar the small number of teams of expats.
A league with 2 cups, both straight knock out, allows teams a chance to play their local rivals, as well as gain promotion to play the best."
Other sports don't have intercounty and club to try to fit in.

Cup competitions aren't great for the development of weaker counties, they'll on average play decently fewer games than the top teams.

The 2nd and 3rd competitions are often not treated with much respect by the participants.

Look at the Pro 14 in rugby or the FA Cup in soccer.

Just go with 1 competition or at most 2 as say the provincial competitions could be played as season openers.

Get every team then playing a strong program of games in the main competition though.

Really with the new calendar proposal and late July being the end of the intercounty season it's tough to run a strong main competition and then 2 cups which between them will take 9 weekends to run off and plenty of teams only playing in 2 of those weekends.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3253 - 14/01/2021 17:42:00    2327439

Link

Replying To Black+Blue:  "Trying to tick 4 boxes here....simplify the structure, retain the rivalry of the Provinces, give all 32 teams a possibility of winning silverware , increase games/training ratio so that the full panel of 30 players get an opportunity to play rather than just 19/20 lads....almost impossible to get it all right but here goes...

NATIONAL LEAGUE - 7 matches

Stays as it is with 4 divisions of 8 teams but scrap semi-finals and finals.
Top team in each division is the winner...simple.
Promotion/relegation plus home/away games guaranteed....final position decides where you land in main Cup competitions.

MAIN CUP COMPETITIONS - 7 matches maximum ( most teams will get 4 matches )

8 groups of 4 ( 1 team from each of the National league divisions ).
3 games...1 at home, 1 away and toss for home advantage in last round which would add a nice bit of edge...
Top 2 of each group into Sam McGuire Cup and bottom 2 into Tailteann Cup.
Both Cups ran as knock out from there...First Round, QuarterFinal, Semi Final, Final

PROVINCIAL CUP. - 3 Matches maximum
4 x re-shuffled groups of 8.
Ran on a home/away, knock out basis.
Quarter final, Semi final, Final...

That gives every single County the following opportunities...

- to play and progress in whats seen as 'main ' competitions ( so no giving out about being ignored/left out ).

- plenty of Home and Away games for atmosphere/bit of magic to happen.

- guaranteed matches so a schedule can be arranged in advance

-lots of Matches to give all 30 members of the panel some game time ( if they are good enough to be in the panel they should be good enough to play )

To make all competitions relevant/competitive, there could be a Provincial Cup round after every 2 league rounds ?

17 matches Maximum if your County wins all 3 of their Competitions ... play the matches over 21 week Inter County 'season' with Hurling/Football alternating on Saturday/Sunday over those 21 weekends...leaves 22 weeks for Club Championships plus 10 week Off-season with no games..


If only life was that simple !!"
I don't like reshuffling of Provincials as an idea. If you keep them it should just be on traditional lines or just scrap them.

Why is the second tier Tailteann cup competition something that teams would want to compete for?

I'd like a system where there were more matches between the top teams in the main competition.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3253 - 14/01/2021 17:51:44    2327442

Link

I always think about what would we do if the GAA were just starting today, how would we organise our competition.

Honestly I think the answer would be that we just split a championship into 2 divisions of 16. Everyone plays everyone in their division once. Finish the season with playoffs in each competitions and promotion between levels.

The Provincial championships are a legacy of a bygone era when travel was nowhere near as inexpensive as it is now.

Now you can't completely disregard tradition but I do think that there needs to be a swift modernisation of our structures.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3253 - 14/01/2021 17:56:02    2327445

Link

If the provenical championships dosent mean anything to anyone why was cavan and tipperary players management teams jumping around and crying like they won the all Ireland?? And the same as Roscommon when they won it in 17 and 19 prity sure it meant a lot to a lot of the mayo players to win their first provincial title a few weeks back? And for 95 percent of players management teams from counties across the country they would be the same as tipperary and cavan at the final whistle if they were to win a provincial title

Irishcelt (Wicklow) - Posts: 101 - 14/01/2021 19:30:29    2327461

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "I always think about what would we do if the GAA were just starting today, how would we organise our competition.

Honestly I think the answer would be that we just split a championship into 2 divisions of 16. Everyone plays everyone in their division once. Finish the season with playoffs in each competitions and promotion between levels.

The Provincial championships are a legacy of a bygone era when travel was nowhere near as inexpensive as it is now.

Now you can't completely disregard tradition but I do think that there needs to be a swift modernisation of our structures."
I dont see that it would just be split into 2 leagues of 16.
If you look to england and sport there nearly all teams at all levels across multiple sports compete in 2-3 competitions in their sporting year
soccer has premiership, fa cup, league cup and then europe for qualifiers
english rugby sides have league, premiership cup and europe
Provincial competitions are far from a bygone era and if they were kept with a better league/main competition it could really boost some counties

You do need to modernise structures but that doesnt mean you have to get rid of some of your biggest strengths.
more than enough room in a year to keep provincial competitions if you streamline even more the season.
Compare the 2017 and 2018 Munster hurling championships and the time between the first game and the final in each year and the number of games played in that time frame.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 2028 - 14/01/2021 19:33:27    2327462

Link

Replying To Meath10:  "Good idea. Makes the leagues more competitive as your division determines your seed. Could even do a B championship open draw for the bottom 2 teams in the group. That would guarantee every county atleast 4 championship games."
Good point about the B championship. Also all neutral venues. You could see a few Div 3 or Div 4 teams slipping into last 16 of main championship.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 408 - 14/01/2021 21:54:57    2327482

Link

How about this -
4 'Open Draw' Provs of 8 (1 Uls/1 Lein to Conn, 2 Lein to Muns - those 4 lowest NFL placed from Uls/Lein).

Uls (with other 3 Provs operating same way)
4 Uls Rd 1 pairings, 4 losers to Uls Rd 2, 4 winners to Uls Rd 3.
2 Rd 2 pairings, 2 losers are out, 2 winners "rotate clockwise to other Prov" (= to Lein QFs).
2 Rd 3 pairings, 2 losers to Uls QFs, 2 winners to Uls SFs.
2 Uls QFs [incl 2 Conn teams, i.e. those rotating clockwise from other Prov, (Conn Rd 2 winners)].
2 Uls SFs (2 Uls QFs v 2 Uls Rd 3 winners).

4 Prov Champs to 'old-style' AI SFs.
Option - For greater match variety, '8 rotate anti-clockwise' in even-numbered years.

Advantages
- 8 Rd 2 winners rotate to freshen up the Provs.
- Prov Open Draw may facilitate some strong teams to rotate.
- Double Chance for all 24 teams that don't get to Prov SFs unbeaten.
- Double Chance within the Prov structure may have more appeal than the Qualifiers.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1913 - 15/01/2021 01:19:10    2327502

Link

Replying To KillingFields:  "I dont see that it would just be split into 2 leagues of 16.
If you look to england and sport there nearly all teams at all levels across multiple sports compete in 2-3 competitions in their sporting year
soccer has premiership, fa cup, league cup and then europe for qualifiers
english rugby sides have league, premiership cup and europe
Provincial competitions are far from a bygone era and if they were kept with a better league/main competition it could really boost some counties

You do need to modernise structures but that doesnt mean you have to get rid of some of your biggest strengths.
more than enough room in a year to keep provincial competitions if you streamline even more the season.
Compare the 2017 and 2018 Munster hurling championships and the time between the first game and the final in each year and the number of games played in that time frame."
They are a legacy of a bygone era.

It's not to say that the don't still have a place because they do still have a tradition that's been built up from over 100 years of competition.

The English FA Cup is exactly what you wouldn't want to happen to them, where they're seen as an inconvenience to the other more important competitions.

I don't know how you square the circle here of keeping them but keeping them important but also of facilitating an All Ireland competition that is fair and provides growth opportunity for all counties.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3253 - 15/01/2021 05:54:21    2327503

Link

Replying To gatha:  "I don't have a clue as to the right answer is but, we have watched a lot of useless Provisional Championships for years before a couple of teams like Tipp and Cavan won this year."
All I can say is I like the Ulster championship. When the back door was brought in I felt it diluted the hounour of representing the province as champs in the all Ireland semis, but I accepted it.

If the All Ireland is restructured completely then I'll accept that too, but I'd rather retain the Anglo Celt and scrap the McKenna cup, leaving just 1 provincial, stand alone, knock-out tournament. Coming from Down this would be something to play for every year.

Other provinces could do whatever they like and in the end every county plays a league campaign as normal or they enter some new all Ireland competition or hybrid league/championship.

Suas Sios (None) - Posts: 1440 - 15/01/2021 12:26:05    2327541

Link

Replying To KY4SAM2015:  "Sure it was great to see Tipp and Cavan winning their provinces but even the tipp manager is in favour of getting rid of the current system. The likes of Tipp and many other teams will be lucky to win one provincial title over a period of decades. The current provincial system should have been changed years ago."
I may have misunderstood the OP and their objection in the first place.

That's a surprise to me that the Tipp manager wants Munster axed. How do supporters feel about it down below?

What are the biggest issues with the provincials?

Is it that they are uncompetitive/too predictable?
Is it the unbalanced nature of it, e.g. 9 teams in Ulster but only 5 in Connaught?
Is it the old county boundaries being unfair?
Can the county boundaries be merged/rejigged altogether?

As I said before I like the Ulster championship but if it goes and something new is tried, I'll accept it. That is, if the new product is what the fans want and club level is protected.

Suas Sios (None) - Posts: 1440 - 15/01/2021 12:45:12    2327545

Link

Yes surprising that he would say it after Tipp ending a long wait. He wants a champions league style group stages, which has been talked plenty before and might be rte way to go.

FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2308 - 15/01/2021 12:52:20    2327547

Link

The idea of a champions league format is exciting but after a couple of years the novelty of it will wear off and suddenly an away game miles down the country won't seem so appealing. The division one teams will still hammer the living daylights out of the rest bar the odd shock. Worse again, teams who are out after 2 games have nothing to play for in the final round. As seen in the super 8s, league formats take the complete edge out of championship football. League is league championship is championship.

The first round of the Ulster championship is the most exciting day of the year bar none. Looking forward to it gets us through the cold January Monday mornings. The second most exciting thought is going on a run in the qualifiers, building some momentum and having a crack at some of the big teams. The thoughts of a of playing another mini league or playing a tailteann cup quater/semi final does not excite me.

97Cavans (Cavan) - Posts: 124 - 15/01/2021 13:42:07    2327563

Link

To 97Cavans - would my Prov QF rotation above freshen the Provs up ?
Effectively, all Provs would have 2 guest teams in the last 6 each year.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1913 - 15/01/2021 18:58:07    2327622

Link

Replying To omahant:  "To 97Cavans - would my Prov QF rotation above freshen the Provs up ?
Effectively, all Provs would have 2 guest teams in the last 6 each year."
That isnt whats needed.
If you keep the provinces then only have the sides from those provinces competing with the exceptions in hurling in ulster counties/galway

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 2028 - 15/01/2021 19:06:59    2327624

Link

Replying To omahant:  "To 97Cavans - would my Prov QF rotation above freshen the Provs up ?
Effectively, all Provs would have 2 guest teams in the last 6 each year."
Why bother?
The great thing about the provincial championships is about playing and beating local rivals.
Only provinces that have sides from elsewhere are Leinster hurling who have Galway, Antrim who are miles better than opposition in their own province and Ulster and Connacht with the overseas sides.

Change the main competition format but dont add/rotate the provincial competitions
If you go down that line you may as well get rid of them and have 4 random groups of 8 that rotate every few years and nobody wants that

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 2028 - 15/01/2021 19:19:28    2327629

Link

Scrap the provincials at your will, however, not all counties are going to even have a remote chance of winning the All Ireland, once in a life time a team might come and win one from no where but that is extremely remote...I like the provincials as, like this year, Tipp actually won something of note, and not a Tommy Murphy cup or something else that no one will remember in 10 years time (absolutely no disrespect to the Tommy Murphy or his equals)..my own Offaly and and Louth, and Wexford have some hope of winning a Leinster if they get a team of some sort, win the all Ireland???..I would love to see the traditional format of National Hurling League and football league return to the format of the 1980s..but condense it to a shorter time and have your league final on Patricks day etc..some great games when it was taken seriously..only a pre season now for a drawn out complicated championship for which most teams havent a hope of winning...

Fairplayalways (Offaly) - Posts: 497 - 15/01/2021 22:53:22    2327661

Link

The provincials need to be retained to give
more counties the opportunity to win silverware.
Since the advent of the qualifiers in 2001, only 5 counties (Longford, Wicklow, Carlow, Leitrim & Waterford) have not played in a provincial football final, although Leitrim played in 2000 Connacht Final.
I would presume that for the weaker counties, playing in these provincial finals would have been seen as a big achievement, much more so than qualifying for a league final.
Whilst the provincial structure proves awkward in scheduling, its not responsible for diverging standards.

Manners5 (Westmeath) - Posts: 16 - 15/01/2021 23:05:20    2327664

Link

The provincials need to be retained to give
more counties the opportunity to win silverware.
Since the advent of the qualifiers in 2001, only 5 counties (Longford, Wicklow, Carlow, Leitrim & Waterford) have not played in a provincial football final, although Leitrim played in 2000 Connacht Final.
I would presume that for the weaker counties, playing in these provincial finals would have been seen as a big achievement, much more so than qualifying for a league final.
Whilst the provincial structure proves awkward in scheduling, its not responsible for diverging standards.

Manners5 (Westmeath) - Posts: 16 - 15/01/2021 23:05:38    2327665

Link