National Forum

Provincial Championships

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Replying To omahant:  "I understand that guest teams would be a radical change and not to many people's fancy, given the purity of the traditional Prov Championships.

While liberal and loose, the 4 sections could still offer a cup to the winner, which would be more exciting than the Qualifiers split in 4 with no intermediare award to play for. Note, I'd keep most counties in their 'home' section - only 8 in the Prov QFs rotating (plus 4 to create the 4x8).

Also, while you may not like "guests" - the idea is not unprecedented in international soccer - Copa America (South Amer) and Gold Cup (North/Central Amer) have had guests - was there any good reason to invite Japan, other than to Jazz up a tournament ? Would Japan have cherished winning such a foreign regional tournament ? - I think they would.

Would re-labelling the Prov Championships make the change more appealing ? e.g. call Lein hurling the "Tri Province Championship" ?

Finally, I'd have an Open Draw in each 8 to ensure some strong teams rotate - e.g. Donegal v Tyrone in Uls Rd 1 - the loser might be drawn to go through the Lein stream after winning its Uls Rd 2b match.

I'd rather do this than to keep the stale structure (i.e. particularly in Leiin/Muns)."
I think a simpler answer is to keep the Provincials just have them separate from the main competition.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3391 - 19/01/2021 20:52:48    2328142

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I think a simpler answer is to keep the Provincials just have them separate from the main competition."
I do agree with Brian McAvoy that decoupling Uls would reduce it to McKenna Cup status. He wants to keep the Prov-AI link and have all 9 competing in Uls - can still be done before any 4x8 design.

As our 'fellow trinity poster' once wrote, this debate is endless. Haven't seen him on here in ages - I suppose losing the Muns Final to us didn't help :)

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1999 - 19/01/2021 23:10:26    2328156

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Replying To omahant:  "I do agree with Brian McAvoy that decoupling Uls would reduce it to McKenna Cup status. He wants to keep the Prov-AI link and have all 9 competing in Uls - can still be done before any 4x8 design.

As our 'fellow trinity poster' once wrote, this debate is endless. Haven't seen him on here in ages - I suppose losing the Muns Final to us didn't help :)"
Yeah I don't get the point of 4 by 8 after the provincial preliminary rounds.

It doesn't take less time to run off.

Adding Some lower ranked teams to Munster aren't going to make it any more competitive. There'll still be big qualitative differences between provinces.

I think using the provincials for seeding the main championship could be interesting.

You're right it could be discussed all day though.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3391 - 20/01/2021 16:34:29    2328236

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Replying To omahant:  "I understand that guest teams would be a radical change and not to many people's fancy, given the purity of the traditional Prov Championships.

While liberal and loose, the 4 sections could still offer a cup to the winner, which would be more exciting than the Qualifiers split in 4 with no intermediare award to play for. Note, I'd keep most counties in their 'home' section - only 8 in the Prov QFs rotating (plus 4 to create the 4x8).

Also, while you may not like "guests" - the idea is not unprecedented in international soccer - Copa America (South Amer) and Gold Cup (North/Central Amer) have had guests - was there any good reason to invite Japan, other than to Jazz up a tournament ? Would Japan have cherished winning such a foreign regional tournament ? - I think they would.

Would re-labelling the Prov Championships make the change more appealing ? e.g. call Lein hurling the "Tri Province Championship" ?

Finally, I'd have an Open Draw in each 8 to ensure some strong teams rotate - e.g. Donegal v Tyrone in Uls Rd 1 - the loser might be drawn to go through the Lein stream after winning its Uls Rd 2b match.

I'd rather do this than to keep the stale structure (i.e. particularly in Leiin/Muns)."
All counties should compete in their home province.
The only counties who shouldnt are the overseas who dont have one and Galway, Antrim in hurling who play outside their home province because of competitive reasons.

4X8 is not needed. It makes the competition more symmetrical but thats about it. There isnt benefits beyond that

Rebranding/re-labelling the provincial competitions would be the death of them

TimeForChange2021 (Dublin) - Posts: 7 - 20/01/2021 22:58:04    2328270

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Qatar is the current Asian Cup champion (won in 2019) and is an invited guest team in 2021 to BOTH the North/Central American Championship (CONCACAF Gold Cup) AND the South American Championship (Conmebol Copa America) - link below.

Long odds I'm sure on them winning both foreign continental tournaments following their own continent success.

I think the GAA should trial guests in their Provincial Championships as well.

http://www.insideworldfootball.com/2020/09/03/asian-cup-champions-qatar-guest-gold-cup-us/

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1999 - 21/01/2021 02:33:36    2328271

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Replying To omahant:  "Qatar is the current Asian Cup champion (won in 2019) and is an invited guest team in 2021 to BOTH the North/Central American Championship (CONCACAF Gold Cup) AND the South American Championship (Conmebol Copa America) - link below.

Long odds I'm sure on them winning both foreign continental tournaments following their own continent success.

I think the GAA should trial guests in their Provincial Championships as well.

It's" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.insideworldfootball.com/2020/09/03/asian-cup-champions-qatar-guest-gold-cup-us/"
It's very different.

Both of those competitions have a history of guest teams.

They also aren't played at the same time as other continental soccer tournaments.

For Meath to join Ulster as a guest they would have to not play Leinster. I don't think anyone wants that or it makes sense.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3391 - 21/01/2021 10:29:55    2328278

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Should the GAA drop the provincial championships, and run with an open draw, based on 4 regions of 8 teams, including London or New York.?

MicktheMiller (Offaly) - Posts: 276 - 21/01/2021 11:22:58    2328289

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Replying To omahant:  "I do agree with Brian McAvoy that decoupling Uls would reduce it to McKenna Cup status. He wants to keep the Prov-AI link and have all 9 competing in Uls - can still be done before any 4x8 design.

As our 'fellow trinity poster' once wrote, this debate is endless. Haven't seen him on here in ages - I suppose losing the Muns Final to us didn't help :)"
If there's a way to keep the Provincials and link them to the All Ireland the following is an option.

NFL as is 4 divisions of 8.

Provincial championships as is. Straight knockout but played in parallel to the league.

All Ireland series 2 tiers of 16 playing in 4 groups of 4.

After provincial championship 8 teams automatically qualify for the tier 1 championship.

Previous season's All Ireland champions, previous season's tier 2 winner, current season's provincial champions. Best placed teams to get up to 8 automatically qualifiers.

There are 2 rounds to qualify where 8 from 24 qualify.

Round 1: 16 worst ranked teams not already qualified and not in their provincial final.

Round 2: Round 1 winners plus 8 other teams not already qualified.

Group stage of tier 1 is seeded so 1 Provincial champion to each group. Remaining 12 teams are seeded with 4 teams in each pot based on league position.

Top 2 from each group to All Ireland quarterfinals.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3391 - 21/01/2021 15:43:46    2328347

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Replying To MicktheMiller:  "Should the GAA drop the provincial championships, and run with an open draw, based on 4 regions of 8 teams, including London or New York.?"
I don't think so. If they drop the provincials just organise on a national basis. We're a small country we don't need it regionalised.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3391 - 21/01/2021 19:37:27    2328382

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I don't think so. If they drop the provincials just organise on a national basis. We're a small country we don't need it regionalised."
Agreed

Get rid of them.

Only counties who care about it are those that win the odd time but not all the time
Before this year Cavan and Tipp hadn't much interest either

Everyone says Ulster cares
Donegal clearly had no interest this year and were looking forward to playing Dublin.
Tyrone do better in the qualifiers so aren't really bothered most years. Same for Armagh.
Derry, Antrim, Fermanagh and Down have given up on it.

In Leinster no one cares

In Munster it's Kerry unless they get caught on the hop by Cork. Everyone else is afraid of Kerry

In Connacht Sligo and Leitrim have given up and Mayo aren't bothered either.

So essentially, Cork, Galway, Roscommon, Cavan and Monaghan care about provincials - no one else would mind if they went

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 823 - 21/01/2021 22:23:26    2328407

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Replying To Whammo86:  "If there's a way to keep the Provincials and link them to the All Ireland the following is an option.

NFL as is 4 divisions of 8.

Provincial championships as is. Straight knockout but played in parallel to the league.

All Ireland series 2 tiers of 16 playing in 4 groups of 4.

After provincial championship 8 teams automatically qualify for the tier 1 championship.

Previous season's All Ireland champions, previous season's tier 2 winner, current season's provincial champions. Best placed teams to get up to 8 automatically qualifiers.

There are 2 rounds to qualify where 8 from 24 qualify.

Round 1: 16 worst ranked teams not already qualified and not in their provincial final.

Round 2: Round 1 winners plus 8 other teams not already qualified.

Group stage of tier 1 is seeded so 1 Provincial champion to each group. Remaining 12 teams are seeded with 4 teams in each pot based on league position.

Top 2 from each group to All Ireland quarterfinals."
A bit like the Jim McGuinness 'Plan Plus' there. His 16-team AI Tier 1 was with current 4 Prov Champs + prior 1 Tier 2 Champ + 11 NFL highest.

His limited Tier 1 access to mostly the top 2 divisions (except for Tier 2 Champ and the Tipps/Cavans Prov Champs) - while you give all 2 chances via the Prov as well as the 24-team 2-rd Qualifiers.

If groups, maybe 3x5 instead to avoid 4-team dead rubbers ?

I like your AI 8-8-16 staggered AI entry point - maybe more efficient though to have the Prov Finalists 8 to KO Rd 3 (last 16, no groups), with 8 strongest (based on NFL rank) of other 24 to KO Rd 2 and weakest 16 to Rd 1.
This is like the Qualifiers, except Prov Champs only get to the AI Last 16 and weak Muns / Conn teams are not exempt from Rd 1.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1999 - 22/01/2021 00:47:57    2328419

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Replying To MicktheMiller:  "Should the GAA drop the provincial championships, and run with an open draw, based on 4 regions of 8 teams, including London or New York.?"
How would you do it ?

I suggested you could keep the Prov structure, have some team rotations to freshen them up and have the 4 Champs going to AI SFs.

With an Open Draw in each region, certain strong teams could win in Rd 2b and then need to go through a neighbouring Prov to challenge for Sam. This would keep the Prov tradition, albeit in a looser form, and better balance quality across the regions. There could be great mischief in Tyrone taking the Leinster title from Dublin - or Kerry being hurt when "their" Munster cup is taken out west ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1999 - 22/01/2021 01:21:49    2328424

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Replying To Whammo86:  "It's very different.

Both of those competitions have a history of guest teams.

They also aren't played at the same time as other continental soccer tournaments.

For Meath to join Ulster as a guest they would have to not play Leinster. I don't think anyone wants that or it makes sense."
There is a Chinese proverb that states "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step".

That long Copa tradition you mention suggests they are well on the road /journey and that nobody else should take that first step.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1999 - 22/01/2021 01:32:12    2328425

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Replying To omahant:  "There is a Chinese proverb that states "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step".

That long Copa tradition you mention suggests they are well on the road /journey and that nobody else should take that first step."
Meath don't want to play an Ulster championship at the expense of playing in Leinster. No team would. You can't logistically run both competitions at anything but the same time. I don't think throwing Carlow and Offaly into Munster after losing a Leinster preliminary is going to do much to refresh the Munster championship.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3391 - 22/01/2021 10:37:12    2328459

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You are entitled not to like the rotation. I just add that I'd have all teams start in their home Prov (with or without the current 4-match Prelim Rd) - only a loss in Rd 1 of the 4x8 would require a team to win Sam through a neighbouring channel. A Prov Open Draw could send Meath, Kildare or Galway through Munster (maybe seed Rd 2b to ensure a better quality rotation).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1999 - 22/01/2021 17:41:38    2328551

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In the CFL (Canadian version of American football), there are two Conferences East and West.
In the KO stage (playoffs), three teams typically qualify to each Conf KO - setting up a Conf SF and Final in each - before the two Champs meet for the national title (Grey Cup).

BUT - if the 4th team in one Conf has a better record (not tied) than 3rd in the other, they crossover to play in the Other Conf SF instead.
While this breaches Conference integrity, it is done to strengthen the KO stage - a long way to say - the GAA Provincial Championships could also be strengthened with such crossover teams.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1999 - 23/01/2021 00:46:35    2328622

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Replying To omahant:  "How would you do it ?

I suggested you could keep the Prov structure, have some team rotations to freshen them up and have the 4 Champs going to AI SFs.

With an Open Draw in each region, certain strong teams could win in Rd 2b and then need to go through a neighbouring Prov to challenge for Sam. This would keep the Prov tradition, albeit in a looser form, and better balance quality across the regions. There could be great mischief in Tyrone taking the Leinster title from Dublin - or Kerry being hurt when "their" Munster cup is taken out west ?"
This option was an idea considered by the Football Review group a few years ago, chaired by the late Eugene McGee. It would involve 4 regions. Some counties would transfer from their current province to the new

Connacht /West. Donegal transfer from Ulster, and Longford from Leinster. London or New York would make up the eighth county.

Ulster/North 8 remaining counties.

Munster/ South 6 counties along with Carlow and Wexford. Eight teams

Leinster/East 8 counties less 3 above. Kilkenny don't play in the LSFC.

4 regions of 8 teams replacing the provincial based championship

MicktheMiller (Offaly) - Posts: 276 - 23/01/2021 19:19:41    2328674

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While that achieves 4x8 symmetry, it does little to achieve mixed-quality balance across the regions.

Starting with 4x8 (reallocating 3 low Lein and 1 low Uls from NFL), I think my relocating of Rd 2b winners better solves the balance issue.

Essentially, to win the AI, 16 Rd 1 winners stay in their own 8-team region and compete for that Prov title en route to AI SFs. whike 16 Rd 1 losers need to win own region Rd 2b tie en route to neighbouring Prov QF, SF, Final, AI SF, AI Final.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1999 - 24/01/2021 04:45:32    2328713

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8 team competitions instead of provinces are not needed.
All it does is add symmetry but just has negatives beyond that

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 2291 - 24/01/2021 19:46:23    2328805

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Replying To omahant:  "I do agree with Brian McAvoy that decoupling Uls would reduce it to McKenna Cup status. He wants to keep the Prov-AI link and have all 9 competing in Uls - can still be done before any 4x8 design.

As our 'fellow trinity poster' once wrote, this debate is endless. Haven't seen him on here in ages - I suppose losing the Muns Final to us didn't help :)"
I agree. Back door also devalued the provincials slightly. If you united them from AI series completely, then I agree it'd reduce them to status of pre-season competitions

essmac (Tyrone) - Posts: 914 - 24/01/2021 23:46:31    2328836

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