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Penalise Hurling's Sliotar Throw !

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what would happen if it was out-lawed?

perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3910 - 22/01/2021 10:01:24    2328440

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Replying To perfect10:  "what would happen if it was out-lawed?"
The fame would probably degenerate into 15 a side tennis. Backs would have to go back to lumping the ball aimlessly up the pitch when under pressure as they wouldn't be able to pop it off to someone in more space. The resulting dropping balls would probably end up in endless rucks. Forwards would end up being bottled up more and with no grandpa's option would probably have to leave the ball fall on the ground rather than be blown for over carrying so there would be more rucks there too. Thered be more hooking and blocking of stickpasses so more ball on the ground again. Not sure if the game would be better it would certainly be different.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 1300 - 22/01/2021 10:17:01    2328446

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Replying To blackspot91:  "Agree on the last point, I think Limerick, especially players like Lynch are singled out for throwing where as most of the time they are just skilfully doing it very quickly with minimal space between the ball and hand, but enough to be legal. The times they've been pulled for it were times where it made no sense for them to throw it i.e not under physical pressure. Anyone who plays the game knows it's not that hard to handpass and it's almost an unnatural feeling to throw the ball. Why then would a player under no pressure throw the ball 5 yards? The answer is they're not.."
He threw it to Kyle Hayes for Hayes goal chances v Waterford in the final. He does tend to throw when there is no need for it.

bloodyban (Limerick) - Posts: 1361 - 22/01/2021 10:25:54    2328453

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Replying To Viking66:  "The fame would probably degenerate into 15 a side tennis. Backs would have to go back to lumping the ball aimlessly up the pitch when under pressure as they wouldn't be able to pop it off to someone in more space. The resulting dropping balls would probably end up in endless rucks. Forwards would end up being bottled up more and with no grandpa's option would probably have to leave the ball fall on the ground rather than be blown for over carrying so there would be more rucks there too. Thered be more hooking and blocking of stickpasses so more ball on the ground again. Not sure if the game would be better it would certainly be different."
Hand pass option

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 1300 - 22/01/2021 10:46:24    2328463

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Replying To Viking66:  "The fame would probably degenerate into 15 a side tennis. Backs would have to go back to lumping the ball aimlessly up the pitch when under pressure as they wouldn't be able to pop it off to someone in more space. The resulting dropping balls would probably end up in endless rucks. Forwards would end up being bottled up more and with no grandpa's option would probably have to leave the ball fall on the ground rather than be blown for over carrying so there would be more rucks there too. Thered be more hooking and blocking of stickpasses so more ball on the ground again. Not sure if the game would be better it would certainly be different."
Wouldnt agree with all of this although some of what you describe would be better than a constant possession game.
Rucks are a byproduct of the possession game. Why you think there would be more rucks if there was less handpassing is an interesting one. I would argue there would be less rucks. The reason the rucks have become so dominant is because players know if they win the ruck then a pop hand pass out ends the ruck. When players blocked and hooked and played the ball on the ground as you describe there were no rucks.

ZUL10 (Clare) - Posts: 612 - 22/01/2021 11:30:09    2328476

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Replying To ZUL10:  "Wouldnt agree with all of this although some of what you describe would be better than a constant possession game.
Rucks are a byproduct of the possession game. Why you think there would be more rucks if there was less handpassing is an interesting one. I would argue there would be less rucks. The reason the rucks have become so dominant is because players know if they win the ruck then a pop hand pass out ends the ruck. When players blocked and hooked and played the ball on the ground as you describe there were no rucks."
There were less rucks back in the day because players used to hold their positions more. So there were less players wherever the ball was. Now each team has around 10-12 players in the middle 3rd or at whichever end the sliotar ends up. The players are faster and fitter these days and the game is more fluid tactically. Also refs are quicker to penalise a player for pulling at the ball on the ground when there are other players around. Dangerous play.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 1300 - 22/01/2021 21:02:33    2328597

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There are lots of posts on here lamenting the older style game. The 2009 All Ireland was mentioned a few times as one of the great finals and I ndeed it was! An absolutely amazing game.
One has to ask how has hurling changed so much. I think the answer is the referring?

2009 was a seriously physical game with Kilkenny dishing out most of it. Ritchie Hogans "shoulder" against Cathal Barrett that earned him a red card in the 2019 would have gone unnoticed in 2009.

If today's referring standards were applied to the 2009 final, KK would most likely have seen five red cards. It's funny how Micheal Duignan described most of them as "there wasn't much in it".
Watching the game was a bit like watching hugging and shaking hands on TV from pre Covid times. You know it's great but you're thinking Jeez ye can't be at that?

So yes the game has changed a lot since 2009 and I do think that devising a game plan to beat that awesome KK team probably has a lot to do with it. Teams have become stronger, tackling is more ferocious, sweepers were more obvious and possession became everything.

But the referring has also changed the landscape of hurling.

Seeking_silver (Limerick) - Posts: 283 - 23/01/2021 23:43:24    2328705

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Replying To Viking66:  "Hand pass option"
Auto correct ?

Turn it off.

lionofludesch (Down) - Posts: 413 - 24/01/2021 12:13:07    2328726

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Replying To lionofludesch:  "Auto correct ?

Turn it off."
I dont know how to I'm barely able to type on this yoke!

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 1300 - 24/01/2021 15:08:51    2328755

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Replying To Seeking_silver:  "There are lots of posts on here lamenting the older style game. The 2009 All Ireland was mentioned a few times as one of the great finals and I ndeed it was! An absolutely amazing game.
One has to ask how has hurling changed so much. I think the answer is the referring?

2009 was a seriously physical game with Kilkenny dishing out most of it. Ritchie Hogans "shoulder" against Cathal Barrett that earned him a red card in the 2019 would have gone unnoticed in 2009.

If today's referring standards were applied to the 2009 final, KK would most likely have seen five red cards. It's funny how Micheal Duignan described most of them as "there wasn't much in it".
Watching the game was a bit like watching hugging and shaking hands on TV from pre Covid times. You know it's great but you're thinking Jeez ye can't be at that?

So yes the game has changed a lot since 2009 and I do think that devising a game plan to beat that awesome KK team probably has a lot to do with it. Teams have become stronger, tackling is more ferocious, sweepers were more obvious and possession became everything.

But the referring has also changed the landscape of hurling."
1 fix would be to increase the weight of the sloiter.
Being able to take a point for 65 yards used to be a joy to watch now corner backs are doing it and it is just normal.
Also reduce the length on the game and substitutes. Doing this would allow the next level of hurling teams to actually compete.
Very difficult when the top teams can run over you in the last 10min by bringing on 5 equally talented player and you cannot.
This is what has ruined the football championship

ulsterrules (Donegal) - Posts: 229 - 24/01/2021 15:37:52    2328762

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Replying To Viking66:  "I dont know how to I'm barely able to type on this yoke!"
Fair point.

lionofludesch (Down) - Posts: 413 - 24/01/2021 17:07:36    2328778

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Replying To ulsterrules:  "1 fix would be to increase the weight of the sloiter.
Being able to take a point for 65 yards used to be a joy to watch now corner backs are doing it and it is just normal.
Also reduce the length on the game and substitutes. Doing this would allow the next level of hurling teams to actually compete.
Very difficult when the top teams can run over you in the last 10min by bringing on 5 equally talented player and you cannot.
This is what has ruined the football championship"
It is amazing, I never heard people call for reduced numbers when Cork Kilkenny and Tipp were cashing in on huge panels to win All Irelands, but as soon as Galway and Limerick get to the top the rules need to be changed.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 2666 - 24/01/2021 18:48:56    2328794

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Replying To ulsterrules:  "1 fix would be to increase the weight of the sloiter.
Being able to take a point for 65 yards used to be a joy to watch now corner backs are doing it and it is just normal.
Also reduce the length on the game and substitutes. Doing this would allow the next level of hurling teams to actually compete.
Very difficult when the top teams can run over you in the last 10min by bringing on 5 equally talented player and you cannot.
This is what has ruined the football championship"
I don't believe the weight of the Sliotar has changed in the past 10 years or even longer. I would love if we had some actual facts about the weight of a sliotar? As far as my google skills go it hasn't changed for a long number of years. Also, what hasn't changed is the human hand. So making the Sliotar heavier would reduce the amounts of catches, one of the best skills in the game. A base ball is about the same size of a Sliotar but catch a 90mtr puck out and you won't do it again in a hurry!

Your next arguments are more flawed. Why not ban gym work for GAA players or even ban food and water to the players on the day of a match so the they have less energy!!

We have to accept the games have moved on. S&C certainly plays a big part in a winning formula. However, each county also needs 30-40 players with amazing skill & commitment. This required an amazing county board with excellent academy and big numbers..... among many other attributes. Then each team needs the very best management team.

Seeking_silver (Limerick) - Posts: 283 - 24/01/2021 19:25:47    2328800

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "It is amazing, I never heard people call for reduced numbers when Cork Kilkenny and Tipp were cashing in on huge panels to win All Irelands, but as soon as Galway and Limerick get to the top the rules need to be changed."
Think hes including the big 3 and Galway there. Probably all the top 9 Liam McCarthy teams. What he means I think is by doing that reducing the time Laois, Westmeath, Antrim, Kerry, Carlow etc might be more competitive and I think hes got a point. I've thought making the sliotar heavier might improve the game for a good while.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 1300 - 25/01/2021 07:26:21    2328844

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "It is amazing, I never heard people call for reduced numbers when Cork Kilkenny and Tipp were cashing in on huge panels to win All Irelands, but as soon as Galway and Limerick get to the top the rules need to be changed."
Exactly and tbh I don't think it's a major issue in hurling anyway.
Galway brought on Niall Burke and Jason Flynn in 2017 who did well but I don't think many inter county defenders would be shaking if they saw them coming on. Limerick obviously have a few good subs but again its not like they are bringing on Cian Lynch or Gearoid Hegarty standard hurlers off the bench. Every team needs a few good subs they can bring on and I think most counties are fairly well balanced in terms of the standard of players on the bench. Ridiculous argument.
It is a huge advantage for Dublin footballers as they are bringing All-Stars off the bench.

hopballref (Galway) - Posts: 311 - 25/01/2021 09:03:58    2328848

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Replying To Seeking_silver:  "I don't believe the weight of the Sliotar has changed in the past 10 years or even longer. I would love if we had some actual facts about the weight of a sliotar? As far as my google skills go it hasn't changed for a long number of years. Also, what hasn't changed is the human hand. So making the Sliotar heavier would reduce the amounts of catches, one of the best skills in the game. A base ball is about the same size of a Sliotar but catch a 90mtr puck out and you won't do it again in a hurry!

Your next arguments are more flawed. Why not ban gym work for GAA players or even ban food and water to the players on the day of a match so the they have less energy!!

We have to accept the games have moved on. S&C certainly plays a big part in a winning formula. However, each county also needs 30-40 players with amazing skill & commitment. This required an amazing county board with excellent academy and big numbers..... among many other attributes. Then each team needs the very best management team."
I think there are multiple things:
-Players getting bigger (average height in males has increased from 5ft5 to 5ft 10 since 1914)
-S&C no further explanation!
-Equipment, hurleys are bigger (therefore bigger sweet spot), better manufactured and some are using different materials
-Sliothars are definitely more "all weather" and don't hold water like the old ones. Don't know if they are lighter but i definitely suspect they are more aerodynamic

When you combine all these things the overall effect is dramatic. You see it in golf. IMO we need to act because the game is going down a dangerous route. Less clashes, less goals and more points from 90+yards being tapped over. The naysayers will point to great games but as time goes on these will become less . We shouldn't wait until it becomes a crisis.

Mayonman (Galway) - Posts: 1301 - 25/01/2021 10:35:26    2328858

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Replying To Mayonman:  "I think there are multiple things:
-Players getting bigger (average height in males has increased from 5ft5 to 5ft 10 since 1914)
-S&C no further explanation!
-Equipment, hurleys are bigger (therefore bigger sweet spot), better manufactured and some are using different materials
-Sliothars are definitely more "all weather" and don't hold water like the old ones. Don't know if they are lighter but i definitely suspect they are more aerodynamic

When you combine all these things the overall effect is dramatic. You see it in golf. IMO we need to act because the game is going down a dangerous route. Less clashes, less goals and more points from 90+yards being tapped over. The naysayers will point to great games but as time goes on these will become less . We shouldn't wait until it becomes a crisis."
The sliotar is definitely far easier to control than say 15 years ago. The rim is inconsequential now by comparison to the past and the ball is definitely easier to strike straight and easier to control first time... yes the Hurley's are better made and are made to the exact requirements of the top players and the sliotar and hurl are making a big difference.
Someone made mention of catching a baseball, but have a look at the high catch now... what usuallly happens or to be more accurate, very often happens, two players contesting a high ball have their non catching arm and hurl holding down their opponent. The game has evolved.and current officiating allows this change.
To me, the game is not what it was, far too many rucks and this is the product of an emphasis on possession. This has had the effect of negating what made the game attractive... the ball was kept moving so fast on the ground that possession was never guaranteed and far more tussles for possession and duration times for teams being in possession were far shorter than present.
As an old stager it's kind of easy for me to hanker after the past and styles. The most recent form of the game as currently played is different definitely but just lacks the excitement of past styles due mainly to the pressure on players to retain possession and the real lack of one to one trailing for the ball. Yes I admire the incredible fitness accuracy and first touch of players, but the game while it has evolved, is just not hitting the spot for me.
The fact that scores are being gotten from 90 metres plus has totally changed the game. Put it this way, I would hate to be a corner forward today... your first responsibility would be to split 2 defenders on their puck out...

carlowman (Carlow) - Posts: 1556 - 25/01/2021 19:31:34    2328921

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How would you bring excitement back and limit firing over points from long distance ? Rule change requiring a long distance pass before a score can be allowed ? Say, given the two 45s and two 65s, a pass over at least two of those lines - e.g. from behind defensive 45 to midfield, or from behing defensive 65 to over other 45 ? Bring back more ball chase, mark your man.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1890 - 28/01/2021 03:02:29    2329272

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