National Forum

Penalise Hurling's Sliotar Throw !

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How best could the frequency of the 'sliotar throw' be significantly reduced ?

Here are a few of my remedies (in my order of preference) that I think could work -

1) Slap the ball with the back of the hand instead of the palm.
2) Retain the palmed pass but only off the hurl.
3) Closed fist pass in lieu of the palm.
4) Clear striking motion, with the palm drawn back at least 30 cms, before the follow through.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 10/01/2021 17:28:56    2326901

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I was never great at the hand pass in the first place but I disagree with some of your suggestions.

The back of the hand? Using the fist? This will reduce the accuracy of the pass and I can't see anyone supporting it.

Pass off the hurl is fine.

Encouraging people to draw the hand further back (e.g. 30cm) before contact to show the ref a clear striking action could be coached maybe.

Could it be that inter county players are so fast and skilled that it looks like a throw even when they have performed the pass legally?

Suas Sios (None) - Posts: 1550 - 10/01/2021 18:46:17    2326908

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A very good.quesrion... but I would question the role of referees in allowing the free hand that is currently used to prevent the player in possession of releasing the handpass or getting the hand out to actually play the ball.
That said, the actual contact is now a push off rather than a definite and clear strike with the hand or palm or fingers.
To be honest, when you question a recent change in how the game is being played/coached and interpreted then you run the risk of being presented as behind the times and are open to being presented to all and sundry as a behemoth and behind the development of the game !!! So best wishes with the thread !!!
But... a very good question !

carlowman (Carlow) - Posts: 1820 - 10/01/2021 21:34:31    2326925

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Replying To omahant:  "How best could the frequency of the 'sliotar throw' be significantly reduced ?

Here are a few of my remedies (in my order of preference) that I think could work -

1) Slap the ball with the back of the hand instead of the palm.
2) Retain the palmed pass but only off the hurl.
3) Closed fist pass in lieu of the palm.
4) Clear striking motion, with the palm drawn back at least 30 cms, before the follow through."
Have you ever played hurling?!!

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 11/01/2021 00:08:58    2326934

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Replying To tiobraid:  "Have you ever played hurling?!!"
funny, if a bit elitist :)

Maroonatic (Galway) - Posts: 1060 - 11/01/2021 10:00:34    2326943

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Replying To tiobraid:  "Have you ever played hurling?!!"
[chuckle]

lionofludesch (Down) - Posts: 475 - 11/01/2021 10:30:08    2326948

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Replying To omahant:  "How best could the frequency of the 'sliotar throw' be significantly reduced ?

Here are a few of my remedies (in my order of preference) that I think could work -

1) Slap the ball with the back of the hand instead of the palm.
2) Retain the palmed pass but only off the hurl.
3) Closed fist pass in lieu of the palm.
4) Clear striking motion, with the palm drawn back at least 30 cms, before the follow through."
I would be against your suggestions at 1 or 3, but I would be in favour of either 2 or 4, without insisting on the 30cms minimum. Certainly something has to be done. As far as I know there is still a requirement for a clear striking action but I suggest at least 75% of the handpasses we see now do not meet this requirement, and referees have a tough job in trying to decide when to penalise and when to "let the game flow". I don't buy the theory (expounded by Donal Og Cusack) that modern players are so skillful that they can make a legitimate handpass without a clear striking action. I agree the modern game is very skillful but the plethora of handpasses reduces the skill levels. We have seen teams move the ball from defence to attack using four or five "handpasses" but without using the hurley - that surely cannot be what hurling is all about.

Some years ago we were bemoaning the way football was going because the handpass was taking over from the kick pass, and teams were more concerned with physical fitness than with developing the basic skills. Hurling is now heading in the same direction, I'm afraid.

midlands (Westmeath) - Posts: 541 - 11/01/2021 11:41:47    2326965

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Replying To Suas Sios:  "I was never great at the hand pass in the first place but I disagree with some of your suggestions.

The back of the hand? Using the fist? This will reduce the accuracy of the pass and I can't see anyone supporting it.

Pass off the hurl is fine.

Encouraging people to draw the hand further back (e.g. 30cm) before contact to show the ref a clear striking action could be coached maybe.

Could it be that inter county players are so fast and skilled that it looks like a throw even when they have performed the pass legally?"
Suas síos. Maybe you ré correct with their speed but if it looks like a foil then it has to be called a foul. Alot of hurlers are throwing the ball and that's not a skill. It's a foil. In fairness the last couple of years referess are starting to blow these throws for fouls. A clear striking movement should be seen imo.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3674 - 11/01/2021 11:43:02    2326966

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Replying To CiarraiMick:  "Suas síos. Maybe you ré correct with their speed but if it looks like a foil then it has to be called a foul. Alot of hurlers are throwing the ball and that's not a skill. It's a foil. In fairness the last couple of years referess are starting to blow these throws for fouls. A clear striking movement should be seen imo."
I watched Kilkenny and Wexford LSH semif final of 1991 on youtube last night, and Wexford dominated the game, but never scored a goal, they did score one and it was dissallowed for square infringement which I dont know how the umpires could have been sure of, I think they "assumed" the Wexford player was in the square as there was a load of players infront of the keeper when the ball hit the net...Kilkenny got a very dubious penalty in the game too (Carey put it over the bar), DJ Carey was fairly tackled by the keeper from what I seen...cutting to the finish, Kilkenny won the game as they so often did in them days with a late goal, by DJ Carey goal DJ Careys speed, I will leave steps out of it, and what I percieved was dubious handpass in the build up led to the winning score...no clear retrospective different angles of replays and no back door in them days...Kilkennys dominance for the 4 in row and even before then have several throw balls not detetced at key times...if they are not spotted you cannot blame them, but just because the ref doesnt see it doesnt make it ok...I can see in heat of battle getting the ball out to another player maybe...I wouldnt be yellow carding players for it I think for once offence anyway..but it needs to be spotted...of course with lighter ball and razor clean and light hurls now makes it virtually impossible..for what its worth go back when you have time to the games of the 70's/80's and even 1990's and look at the hurls players used...there was nothing wrong with them either and games were better...

Fairplayalways (Offaly) - Posts: 1034 - 11/01/2021 11:56:50    2326968

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The higher the level of hurling the more the rules are being disregarded.I feel that players in the lower grades are more harshly penalised for all types of fouls.As regard hand passes looking like throws because they are so quick I would suggest they may be good but are not magicians.The quickness of the hand deceives the eye Nah???

gunman (Donegal) - Posts: 1056 - 11/01/2021 12:02:32    2326969

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Replying To midlands:  "I would be against your suggestions at 1 or 3, but I would be in favour of either 2 or 4, without insisting on the 30cms minimum. Certainly something has to be done. As far as I know there is still a requirement for a clear striking action but I suggest at least 75% of the handpasses we see now do not meet this requirement, and referees have a tough job in trying to decide when to penalise and when to "let the game flow". I don't buy the theory (expounded by Donal Og Cusack) that modern players are so skillful that they can make a legitimate handpass without a clear striking action. I agree the modern game is very skillful but the plethora of handpasses reduces the skill levels. We have seen teams move the ball from defence to attack using four or five "handpasses" but without using the hurley - that surely cannot be what hurling is all about.

Some years ago we were bemoaning the way football was going because the handpass was taking over from the kick pass, and teams were more concerned with physical fitness than with developing the basic skills. Hurling is now heading in the same direction, I'm afraid."
Have to agree with the hand passing starting to dominate the game. Goes back to possession being prime. The handpassed goal was removed years ago now, so why not remove the handpass all together. Let players play a possession game but with the stick pass. Put competition back into the game. Hurling is going the same way as football, where when you get possession from a kickout or turn over you should score - comes from basketball.

3feetoftimber (Meath) - Posts: 113 - 11/01/2021 12:26:55    2326974

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Replying To 3feetoftimber:  "Have to agree with the hand passing starting to dominate the game. Goes back to possession being prime. The handpassed goal was removed years ago now, so why not remove the handpass all together. Let players play a possession game but with the stick pass. Put competition back into the game. Hurling is going the same way as football, where when you get possession from a kickout or turn over you should score - comes from basketball."
Exactly. I know the lack of crowds did nt help but I found both championships a bit boring this year bar a few great occasions. The hurling normally so exciting but even though the scores are getting higher its not as entertaining. Maybe it's just me but that's my view anyway.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3674 - 11/01/2021 13:58:05    2326985

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Replying To Fairplayalways:  "I watched Kilkenny and Wexford LSH semif final of 1991 on youtube last night, and Wexford dominated the game, but never scored a goal, they did score one and it was dissallowed for square infringement which I dont know how the umpires could have been sure of, I think they "assumed" the Wexford player was in the square as there was a load of players infront of the keeper when the ball hit the net...Kilkenny got a very dubious penalty in the game too (Carey put it over the bar), DJ Carey was fairly tackled by the keeper from what I seen...cutting to the finish, Kilkenny won the game as they so often did in them days with a late goal, by DJ Carey goal DJ Careys speed, I will leave steps out of it, and what I percieved was dubious handpass in the build up led to the winning score...no clear retrospective different angles of replays and no back door in them days...Kilkennys dominance for the 4 in row and even before then have several throw balls not detetced at key times...if they are not spotted you cannot blame them, but just because the ref doesnt see it doesnt make it ok...I can see in heat of battle getting the ball out to another player maybe...I wouldnt be yellow carding players for it I think for once offence anyway..but it needs to be spotted...of course with lighter ball and razor clean and light hurls now makes it virtually impossible..for what its worth go back when you have time to the games of the 70's/80's and even 1990's and look at the hurls players used...there was nothing wrong with them either and games were better..."
Really-How do you make out that the games were better back in the day. I have looked at games from the early/mid nineties on youtube recently and the standard of hurling looked vastly inferior to what is on offer over the past years. First touch, combination, striking under pressure and the amount of classy scores got from play all seemed of a much lower standard than what is prevailing today.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4317 - 11/01/2021 14:32:26    2326991

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "Really-How do you make out that the games were better back in the day. I have looked at games from the early/mid nineties on youtube recently and the standard of hurling looked vastly inferior to what is on offer over the past years. First touch, combination, striking under pressure and the amount of classy scores got from play all seemed of a much lower standard than what is prevailing today."
The stand might have been lower but that does nt mean they were nt better spectacles. I enjoy watching hurling but it's becoming so easy to score its not as enjoyable to me as it was even a couple of years ago. Maybe the sliotar is too light? I don't know but I did nt enjoy the hurling as much this year altho some of Limerick scores were top drawer..

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3674 - 11/01/2021 16:22:02    2327006

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Replying To CiarraiMick:  "The stand might have been lower but that does nt mean they were nt better spectacles. I enjoy watching hurling but it's becoming so easy to score its not as enjoyable to me as it was even a couple of years ago. Maybe the sliotar is too light? I don't know but I did nt enjoy the hurling as much this year altho some of Limerick scores were top drawer.."
I agree there are some issues with hurling today and the relative lack of goal mouth action is a problem for me.
However, part of the older games being better specatacles was because we hadn't seen any better at that time. They're certainly not better spectacles looking back at them now. I get frustrated or even cringe at times watching some of the decision making or poor attempts. In another code, but the same logic applies, Tomás Ó Sé recently said he cringes looking back at many of his own Kerry games, including those which were considered classics at the time. He's not even finished playing that long, but it shows how quickly things move on.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2037 - 11/01/2021 18:14:19    2327018

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Replying To WanPintWin:  "I agree there are some issues with hurling today and the relative lack of goal mouth action is a problem for me.
However, part of the older games being better specatacles was because we hadn't seen any better at that time. They're certainly not better spectacles looking back at them now. I get frustrated or even cringe at times watching some of the decision making or poor attempts. In another code, but the same logic applies, Tomás Ó Sé recently said he cringes looking back at many of his own Kerry games, including those which were considered classics at the time. He's not even finished playing that long, but it shows how quickly things move on."
True! Years ago defenders would just Puck or kick the ball anywhere but the expectation was better. You ré so right about goalmouth action. Very rarely now is a ball picked into the square leaving a cluster of players fighting for it..Maybe not as skilful but definately more entertaining.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3674 - 11/01/2021 18:32:52    2327021

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Replying To omahant:  "How best could the frequency of the 'sliotar throw' be significantly reduced ?

Here are a few of my remedies (in my order of preference) that I think could work -

1) Slap the ball with the back of the hand instead of the palm.
2) Retain the palmed pass but only off the hurl.
3) Closed fist pass in lieu of the palm.
4) Clear striking motion, with the palm drawn back at least 30 cms, before the follow through."
How in the name of God could you pass the ball of the back of the hand ?
No 3. Closed fist ? Sure that's never going to be accurate.
4. The palm drawn back more than a foot ? Jaysus will you stop. What hope has a ref got of being able to see this all the time when he could be 50 yards away ?
It's hardly worth changing a rule if that's what the alternatives are.

catch22 (USA) - Posts: 2148 - 11/01/2021 18:43:10    2327025

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Replying To omahant:  "How best could the frequency of the 'sliotar throw' be significantly reduced ?

Here are a few of my remedies (in my order of preference) that I think could work -

1) Slap the ball with the back of the hand instead of the palm.
2) Retain the palmed pass but only off the hurl.
3) Closed fist pass in lieu of the palm.
4) Clear striking motion, with the palm drawn back at least 30 cms, before the follow through."
How in the name of God could you pass the ball of the back of the hand ?
No 3. Closed fist ? Sure that's never going to be accurate.
4. The palm drawn back more than a foot ? Jaysus will you stop. What hope has a ref got of being able to see this all the time when he could be 50 yards away ?
It's hardly worth changing a rule if that's what the alternatives are.

catch22 (USA) - Posts: 2148 - 11/01/2021 18:43:10    2327026

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Replying To WanPintWin:  "I agree there are some issues with hurling today and the relative lack of goal mouth action is a problem for me.
However, part of the older games being better specatacles was because we hadn't seen any better at that time. They're certainly not better spectacles looking back at them now. I get frustrated or even cringe at times watching some of the decision making or poor attempts. In another code, but the same logic applies, Tomás Ó Sé recently said he cringes looking back at many of his own Kerry games, including those which were considered classics at the time. He's not even finished playing that long, but it shows how quickly things move on."
Yes indeed. The other day, I looked back at the 1996 Clare/Limerick game in 1996, which was widely regarded as a great game at the time, and the standard looks very poor indeed, with simple points missed from very easy positions on both sides, hopeless deliveries into forwards and no movement from forwards into good receiving positions, among other glaring weaknesses, in comparison to how the game is played today.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4317 - 11/01/2021 18:53:21    2327028

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Replying To CiarraiMick:  "Suas síos. Maybe you ré correct with their speed but if it looks like a foil then it has to be called a foul. Alot of hurlers are throwing the ball and that's not a skill. It's a foil. In fairness the last couple of years referess are starting to blow these throws for fouls. A clear striking movement should be seen imo."
I must have heard that from Donal Óg as Midlands says.

Yea, I recognise that a foul is a foul. To make the clear striking action mandatory is the most straightforward way to correct this issue. If it's not clear, it's a free.

Being the ref is not easy and I would never be up to it myself but if I did I would consider popping into the changing rooms before the game and telling/warning the players what I look out for.

E.G. Ok lads I will blow the whistle for a throw pass/ zero tolerance for talking back/ off the ball stuff... etc

Suas Sios (None) - Posts: 1550 - 11/01/2021 18:53:51    2327029

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