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Penalise Hurling's Sliotar Throw !

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Replying To updwell:  "I have to agree with you about the modern game that the level of skill and attention to detail is light years ahead of where it was 15 years ago. Good Intercounty teams now don't give away the ball or even give 50/50 contested balls to a teammate, it's all about giving a pass which your man will be favoured to win. That contested ball is all but gone out of the game now and that's why the game has changed so much and what a lot of people are missing but when I was playing keeping possession and finding a free man was always encouraged but we just didn't have the skill or persistence to keep at it if it broke down and cost you a score. Teams are obviously coached to a level now where they can play this game at a very high level. Look at Graeme Mulcahy and the ball he gets into him is always to his advantage now whereas under previous Limerick management's he was getting killed under high ball with no hope of winning it. Fans might like the pull by the corner back across Graeme hand but I think Graeme is much happier with the ball he is getting now plus it is the intelligent way to play. Is that the problem with modern critic's of the game that the players are now too intelligent."
I was looking at the '07 Final the other night, we got plenty of ball into our full Forwards that day but almost every ball was struck almost to suit their opponents. In sharp contrast, in the '18 Quarter Final, the nature of ball sent into Gillane, Flanagan and Mulcahy was tailor made to give them an advantage and thus we pulled through. Most supporters, or teams themselves, could not give a flying one about whether they entertain- all they want to do is to get a result.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4321 - 07/02/2021 17:42:20    2330544

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "I was looking at the '07 Final the other night, we got plenty of ball into our full Forwards that day but almost every ball was struck almost to suit their opponents. In sharp contrast, in the '18 Quarter Final, the nature of ball sent into Gillane, Flanagan and Mulcahy was tailor made to give them an advantage and thus we pulled through. Most supporters, or teams themselves, could not give a flying one about whether they entertain- all they want to do is to get a result."
I've a hard time believing that supporters don't give a one about being entertained,, they'll happily tolerate non entertaining fare so long, and only so long as the team wins, but they'd absolutely rather good fare while it's happening, and neutrals would definitely prefer more exciting contests.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1708 - 07/02/2021 19:21:17    2330553

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Replying To Galway9801:  "I've a hard time believing that supporters don't give a one about being entertained,, they'll happily tolerate non entertaining fare so long, and only so long as the team wins, but they'd absolutely rather good fare while it's happening, and neutrals would definitely prefer more exciting contests."
But it never gets boring if your side is wining and one will be able to admire the superior skills of a winning team. Neutrals or opposition views do not matter. I cannot imagine any present day manager lecturing his team for playing unattractive hurling in a winning dressing room. That may sound cynical, but there you go.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4321 - 07/02/2021 20:07:57    2330564

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "But it never gets boring if your side is wining and one will be able to admire the superior skills of a winning team. Neutrals or opposition views do not matter. I cannot imagine any present day manager lecturing his team for playing unattractive hurling in a winning dressing room. That may sound cynical, but there you go."
I agree with you that managers are not going to worry about the quality of the hurling but I do think that everybody is entitled to their view and the neutral view does count as well as the defeated management and fans.
It is very noticable that Limerick posters are being quite defensive and dare I say over sensitive about the current quality of hurling. The game is what is important and even neutrals are interested in maintaining the overall health and quality if the game.
I salute the current Limerick team and I do think that the other 31 counties have their views and they do count.... remember that it takes far less than 31 counties to change rules !!
I appreciate and accept that the game changes. That is part of the development of every sport but especially a field team sport.
But for me and this is not a reflection on Limerick, but the modern game as played in recent years is too preoccupied with possession and has led to rucks, very few good balls going into corner forwards and for me is not as attractive nor as exciting.
This will have the effect I think of fewer going to games especially as neutrals !!!
Perhaps the competing counties dont care about that, but as a neutral who has gone to a lot of games since the 70's I am not as inclined to go.
For me, the game is what is important not who wins and I would much prefer enjoy a match with far fewer rucks and far less throwing the ball, far less holding with the loose hand and cynical fouling.
Perhaps it is too much to expect.
As an aside, I watched the first half of last nights USA football final.... I hope hurling is not going to end up becoming a close relative of this sport where every 'play's is pre planned.
That is the way hurling has been developing and for me has become boring in its predictability.
...

carlowman (Carlow) - Posts: 1821 - 08/02/2021 17:56:35    2330708

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "But it never gets boring if your side is wining and one will be able to admire the superior skills of a winning team. Neutrals or opposition views do not matter. I cannot imagine any present day manager lecturing his team for playing unattractive hurling in a winning dressing room. That may sound cynical, but there you go."
Agree 100%. I'd far rather we beat Tipp 6 points to 5 in 2019 than lose a thriller in injury time.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11864 - 08/02/2021 18:33:40    2330716

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Replying To carlowman:  "I agree with you that managers are not going to worry about the quality of the hurling but I do think that everybody is entitled to their view and the neutral view does count as well as the defeated management and fans.
It is very noticable that Limerick posters are being quite defensive and dare I say over sensitive about the current quality of hurling. The game is what is important and even neutrals are interested in maintaining the overall health and quality if the game.
I salute the current Limerick team and I do think that the other 31 counties have their views and they do count.... remember that it takes far less than 31 counties to change rules !!
I appreciate and accept that the game changes. That is part of the development of every sport but especially a field team sport.
But for me and this is not a reflection on Limerick, but the modern game as played in recent years is too preoccupied with possession and has led to rucks, very few good balls going into corner forwards and for me is not as attractive nor as exciting.
This will have the effect I think of fewer going to games especially as neutrals !!!
Perhaps the competing counties dont care about that, but as a neutral who has gone to a lot of games since the 70's I am not as inclined to go.
For me, the game is what is important not who wins and I would much prefer enjoy a match with far fewer rucks and far less throwing the ball, far less holding with the loose hand and cynical fouling.
Perhaps it is too much to expect.
As an aside, I watched the first half of last nights USA football final.... I hope hurling is not going to end up becoming a close relative of this sport where every 'play's is pre planned.
That is the way hurling has been developing and for me has become boring in its predictability.
..."
I blame the relative recent evolution of our game on the Kilkenny team of 2006-2015. They were so good and at the top for so long, competing counties had to come up with ways to try to beat them. They were powerful, so opponents went to the gym to pile on the mussels. They were aggressive so teams had to become more aggressive to even match them. They were skilful so teams had to form academies to get the next generation to match them. When they got the ball there was a high chance they would score so opposing teams had to learn to keep possession of the ball to stop them scoring. They were individually winning their own battlesp so 3-4 players from the opposing teams had to rush into the tackle - resulting in rucks. I remember Galway beat them in the 2012 Leinster final by being ultra aggressive, they brought high intensity to every tackle and hunted in packs. Galway didnt give KK a sniff of the ball that day and as far as I remember KK really struggled to score from play that day.

Likewise, in 2017, Galway beat limerick well twice, in as many weeks in the NHL. I remember coming away from those games thinking that Galway were far stronger and won all the physical battles. To be honest Limerick were well off the pace on both days. Galway went on to win the much coveted Liam McCarthy that year and we were all thinking they will be the top team for a few years to come. Roll on 2018 and out of the ashes rose a group of 40 odd green giants! Fresh from a winter of boxing the heads off each other. The first time I saw them in '18 was in the NHL in Tullamore and I was astounded by the size of them and the physicality they brought to the game.

Since 2018 limericks passing game has much improved. It's possibly so well perfected that some people from outside the county see it as boring! I consider it a thing of beauty!!

Due to the collective training ban currently in place it might be hard for teams to "evolve " enough to knock Limerick off their perch in 2021? But it won't be long before one of the top 10 come up with a game plan to dethrone us. I don't think subtle changes or tweaks will beat this current Limerick team. It will take a reasonable change which every pundit will praise. But if this team wins a few then we will be on again looking for rule changes.... unless of course it's Kk, Tipp or Cork.........

Seeking_silver (Limerick) - Posts: 411 - 08/02/2021 23:12:37    2330761

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Replying To Seeking_silver:  "I blame the relative recent evolution of our game on the Kilkenny team of 2006-2015. They were so good and at the top for so long, competing counties had to come up with ways to try to beat them. They were powerful, so opponents went to the gym to pile on the mussels. They were aggressive so teams had to become more aggressive to even match them. They were skilful so teams had to form academies to get the next generation to match them. When they got the ball there was a high chance they would score so opposing teams had to learn to keep possession of the ball to stop them scoring. They were individually winning their own battlesp so 3-4 players from the opposing teams had to rush into the tackle - resulting in rucks. I remember Galway beat them in the 2012 Leinster final by being ultra aggressive, they brought high intensity to every tackle and hunted in packs. Galway didnt give KK a sniff of the ball that day and as far as I remember KK really struggled to score from play that day.

Likewise, in 2017, Galway beat limerick well twice, in as many weeks in the NHL. I remember coming away from those games thinking that Galway were far stronger and won all the physical battles. To be honest Limerick were well off the pace on both days. Galway went on to win the much coveted Liam McCarthy that year and we were all thinking they will be the top team for a few years to come. Roll on 2018 and out of the ashes rose a group of 40 odd green giants! Fresh from a winter of boxing the heads off each other. The first time I saw them in '18 was in the NHL in Tullamore and I was astounded by the size of them and the physicality they brought to the game.

Since 2018 limericks passing game has much improved. It's possibly so well perfected that some people from outside the county see it as boring! I consider it a thing of beauty!!

Due to the collective training ban currently in place it might be hard for teams to "evolve " enough to knock Limerick off their perch in 2021? But it won't be long before one of the top 10 come up with a game plan to dethrone us. I don't think subtle changes or tweaks will beat this current Limerick team. It will take a reasonable change which every pundit will praise. But if this team wins a few then we will be on again looking for rule changes.... unless of course it's Kk, Tipp or Cork........."
Yes indeed. In 2017 below in Nowlan Park we still looked like boys playing men. We looked physically weaker and our intensity levels were simply not a par with those of the home team. Coming out of the pitch that day I could not see LK winning the next years All Ireland. I agree with you that the teams passing game at full flow is a delight to watch, even though some outsiders think a team that is not one of the 'Big Three' should not have the cheek to play such an expansive game.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4321 - 09/02/2021 12:26:20    2330802

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Replying To Seeking_silver:  "I blame the relative recent evolution of our game on the Kilkenny team of 2006-2015. They were so good and at the top for so long, competing counties had to come up with ways to try to beat them. They were powerful, so opponents went to the gym to pile on the mussels. They were aggressive so teams had to become more aggressive to even match them. They were skilful so teams had to form academies to get the next generation to match them. When they got the ball there was a high chance they would score so opposing teams had to learn to keep possession of the ball to stop them scoring. They were individually winning their own battlesp so 3-4 players from the opposing teams had to rush into the tackle - resulting in rucks. I remember Galway beat them in the 2012 Leinster final by being ultra aggressive, they brought high intensity to every tackle and hunted in packs. Galway didnt give KK a sniff of the ball that day and as far as I remember KK really struggled to score from play that day.

Likewise, in 2017, Galway beat limerick well twice, in as many weeks in the NHL. I remember coming away from those games thinking that Galway were far stronger and won all the physical battles. To be honest Limerick were well off the pace on both days. Galway went on to win the much coveted Liam McCarthy that year and we were all thinking they will be the top team for a few years to come. Roll on 2018 and out of the ashes rose a group of 40 odd green giants! Fresh from a winter of boxing the heads off each other. The first time I saw them in '18 was in the NHL in Tullamore and I was astounded by the size of them and the physicality they brought to the game.

Since 2018 limericks passing game has much improved. It's possibly so well perfected that some people from outside the county see it as boring! I consider it a thing of beauty!!

Due to the collective training ban currently in place it might be hard for teams to "evolve " enough to knock Limerick off their perch in 2021? But it won't be long before one of the top 10 come up with a game plan to dethrone us. I don't think subtle changes or tweaks will beat this current Limerick team. It will take a reasonable change which every pundit will praise. But if this team wins a few then we will be on again looking for rule changes.... unless of course it's Kk, Tipp or Cork........."
I am not critical at all of this Limerick team. They are a joy to watch in using their supreme skill sets and added to their immense physical speed and conditioning makes them a magnificent team.


They play with great power and directness in that the ball is moved at great pace through hand pass and short Hurley strokes to a player in space to shoot for scores. They make it look easy but are way ahead of others at the moment.

I agree with you also that some team will adapt to try to break this Limerick team but I think looking at Limerick and the tight bond between coaches and players that Limerick will continue to adapt their style. They are in the excellent position of having players to come into all lines on the field who can add to the effectiveness of their style.

That is the mark of a great team and i think they can dominate for the next 5 years at least.

I agree fully with you that Kilkennys experience of defeat at the hands of Galway altered Kilkennys approach in that it meant bigger players were used and this altered their style with each player expected to win their own battle for possession.

Then again a little further back we had Kilkenny being the most effective at defeating Cork and their style - they have not recovered since- where Cusack s puck outs were the xfactor for that Cork team allied to their speed of hand pass to supporting players running off the shoulder. Kilkennyballowed Cork to take the shirt puck out but put so.many players into their half back line and trusted them to win the high ball that Cirk were stifled.

So, yes the game has adapted and the current pandemic will lessen the time for teams to adapt sufficiently well to defeat this Limerick team.

My key point however is that notwithstanding all of that, that with the game itself we need to have a closer look at a few key areas... to improve it in my view from how it is currently being played. Please be clear,my sole interest is the game to get better and I am not on here to have a go at any team.
So, my concern rests around 4 areas.
If a defense effort to work the ball out breaks down the defence who are usually out of position tend to foul in dread of conceding a goal . That has been there for a number of years and I feel needs to be addressed where it does not pay to foul cynically. That is my key point.
Secondly I would again like us to look at the hand pass and its execution. Cusack in fairness said that it is now an integral skill. I am not sure about its execution being exemplary and I think we need a more conspicuous and clear striking of the sliotar with the hand. That is just my view... that we should examine it and discuss it a little more and not just in silence accept it or shout down anyone who raises a question about it.
Similarly, if the ruck is to be a feature, and it looks like they are then why not have a look at changing how it is played so that it can become a feature specific to a modern style,ie, when one forms, say between 4 players, then leave it to just those 4 to contest for possession.
Also,lets look at the use of the free hand by the player not in possession. Kilkenny were first to bring in the free hand as a means to dispossess and or push the player to over carry or prevent the players holding hand to complete a handpass. This has become another area that I think needs to be looked at.
So there are 4 areas that can be looked at to improve the game... and I think we need to discuss these and then try to implement them.
It's very easy to say that the game is alright and leave it alone. I think that is just not good enough.i think we have a great game and we can make it better !!!

carlowman (Carlow) - Posts: 1821 - 09/02/2021 13:19:47    2330816

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carlowman I think 1 simple tactic to change the game would be for teams to go man on man all over the field. Look at Limerick playing against a 2 man full forward line, Quaid gives a puckout to the free corner back who carries it to the half backs and pop's it to them who then carry it to the midfielder and he can have a shot from 70 yards or else draw an opposition half-back and pop it to his half forwards who can score. It sounds easy and it is and Limerick in particular do it a lot but what happens if the Limerick full back mine have 3 men to mark and the half backs are marked then Quaid will have to go long to midfield or half forwards and there the contest is a 50/50 ball in the air which can go either way and if the ball hits the grass it's likely to be another 1 v 1 contest which should cut out a lot of the rucks. How many teams are brave enough to go 1 v 1 against Hegarty and Morrissey? I don't think any team would. This would improve the spectacle and probably lead to more goals at both ends of the field.

updwell (Limerick) - Posts: 817 - 09/02/2021 14:32:50    2330829

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Replying To updwell:  "carlowman I think 1 simple tactic to change the game would be for teams to go man on man all over the field. Look at Limerick playing against a 2 man full forward line, Quaid gives a puckout to the free corner back who carries it to the half backs and pop's it to them who then carry it to the midfielder and he can have a shot from 70 yards or else draw an opposition half-back and pop it to his half forwards who can score. It sounds easy and it is and Limerick in particular do it a lot but what happens if the Limerick full back mine have 3 men to mark and the half backs are marked then Quaid will have to go long to midfield or half forwards and there the contest is a 50/50 ball in the air which can go either way and if the ball hits the grass it's likely to be another 1 v 1 contest which should cut out a lot of the rucks. How many teams are brave enough to go 1 v 1 against Hegarty and Morrissey? I don't think any team would. This would improve the spectacle and probably lead to more goals at both ends of the field."
What if a team doesn't want to go man on man ?

Free puck or something ?

Teams go out to win. Entertaining's nice but it's not a fella's first thought.

lionofludesch (Down) - Posts: 475 - 09/02/2021 15:02:41    2330832

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Replying To lionofludesch:  "What if a team doesn't want to go man on man ?

Free puck or something ?

Teams go out to win. Entertaining's nice but it's not a fella's first thought."
If a team doesn't go man on man then Limerick, who value possession above all else, will just give it to the free man in the full back line and run it up the field. Every team and management has their own ideas about the game and this is Limericks who will continue to do it until some team comes up with a way of beating it. I don't think it's boring and I enjoy it and I think we have been involved in some brilliant games over the last 3 years, as good has any games from the past.

updwell (Limerick) - Posts: 817 - 09/02/2021 15:40:50    2330836

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Replying To updwell:  "carlowman I think 1 simple tactic to change the game would be for teams to go man on man all over the field. Look at Limerick playing against a 2 man full forward line, Quaid gives a puckout to the free corner back who carries it to the half backs and pop's it to them who then carry it to the midfielder and he can have a shot from 70 yards or else draw an opposition half-back and pop it to his half forwards who can score. It sounds easy and it is and Limerick in particular do it a lot but what happens if the Limerick full back mine have 3 men to mark and the half backs are marked then Quaid will have to go long to midfield or half forwards and there the contest is a 50/50 ball in the air which can go either way and if the ball hits the grass it's likely to be another 1 v 1 contest which should cut out a lot of the rucks. How many teams are brave enough to go 1 v 1 against Hegarty and Morrissey? I don't think any team would. This would improve the spectacle and probably lead to more goals at both ends of the field."
By going 1 on 1 do you mean dividing the pitch into 15 equal areas and telling lads there are only to be the 2 lads who start there allowed in there? Hurling was never like that.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11864 - 09/02/2021 15:56:37    2330839

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Replying To carlowman:  "I am not critical at all of this Limerick team. They are a joy to watch in using their supreme skill sets and added to their immense physical speed and conditioning makes them a magnificent team.


They play with great power and directness in that the ball is moved at great pace through hand pass and short Hurley strokes to a player in space to shoot for scores. They make it look easy but are way ahead of others at the moment.

I agree with you also that some team will adapt to try to break this Limerick team but I think looking at Limerick and the tight bond between coaches and players that Limerick will continue to adapt their style. They are in the excellent position of having players to come into all lines on the field who can add to the effectiveness of their style.

That is the mark of a great team and i think they can dominate for the next 5 years at least.

I agree fully with you that Kilkennys experience of defeat at the hands of Galway altered Kilkennys approach in that it meant bigger players were used and this altered their style with each player expected to win their own battle for possession.

Then again a little further back we had Kilkenny being the most effective at defeating Cork and their style - they have not recovered since- where Cusack s puck outs were the xfactor for that Cork team allied to their speed of hand pass to supporting players running off the shoulder. Kilkennyballowed Cork to take the shirt puck out but put so.many players into their half back line and trusted them to win the high ball that Cirk were stifled.

So, yes the game has adapted and the current pandemic will lessen the time for teams to adapt sufficiently well to defeat this Limerick team.

My key point however is that notwithstanding all of that, that with the game itself we need to have a closer look at a few key areas... to improve it in my view from how it is currently being played. Please be clear,my sole interest is the game to get better and I am not on here to have a go at any team.
So, my concern rests around 4 areas.
If a defense effort to work the ball out breaks down the defence who are usually out of position tend to foul in dread of conceding a goal . That has been there for a number of years and I feel needs to be addressed where it does not pay to foul cynically. That is my key point.
Secondly I would again like us to look at the hand pass and its execution. Cusack in fairness said that it is now an integral skill. I am not sure about its execution being exemplary and I think we need a more conspicuous and clear striking of the sliotar with the hand. That is just my view... that we should examine it and discuss it a little more and not just in silence accept it or shout down anyone who raises a question about it.
Similarly, if the ruck is to be a feature, and it looks like they are then why not have a look at changing how it is played so that it can become a feature specific to a modern style,ie, when one forms, say between 4 players, then leave it to just those 4 to contest for possession.
Also,lets look at the use of the free hand by the player not in possession. Kilkenny were first to bring in the free hand as a means to dispossess and or push the player to over carry or prevent the players holding hand to complete a handpass. This has become another area that I think needs to be looked at.
So there are 4 areas that can be looked at to improve the game... and I think we need to discuss these and then try to implement them.
It's very easy to say that the game is alright and leave it alone. I think that is just not good enough.i think we have a great game and we can make it better !!!"
1- agreed cynical play to deny a goal shouldn't be allowed. 2- several counties Wexford and Kilkenny in particular seemed to have trained for a clearer striking action as it was said at the beginning of 2020 that refs would be clamping down on this . This led to more looping hand passes that got tipped or batted down leading to more rucks. And refs didnt clamp down on it anyway. 3- rucks never involved only 4 lads since I started watching in the 90s. Not sure how you would stop it. 4- not sure how you would stop so called free hand fouls either. What about players with the ball trailing the hurl to make it look like the tackler is holding it with his free hand even when he is not? That's happening increasingly to try win a free in. Agree the game needs more goals and goal mouth action but not sure any of your 4 points is going to achieve this.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11864 - 09/02/2021 16:06:09    2330841

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Replying To Viking66:  "By going 1 on 1 do you mean dividing the pitch into 15 equal areas and telling lads there are only to be the 2 lads who start there allowed in there? Hurling was never like that."
No just good old fashioned pick up your own man

updwell (Limerick) - Posts: 817 - 09/02/2021 16:10:13    2330843

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Replying To Viking66:  "By going 1 on 1 do you mean dividing the pitch into 15 equal areas and telling lads there are only to be the 2 lads who start there allowed in there? Hurling was never like that."
In fairness we know he doesnt mean that...similar in football to do away with double and trebble marking teams top players, all players must be "man on man" only, double or trebble marking, a free to the other team only exception is where the forward is bearing down on goal the goalie can leave his line to block etc ...great players are being destroyed by all this multiple marking..no, its not up the teams concerned to find a way around it, the rules are the only way of fixing it..one to one marking, more open games and watchable games again, not this rubbish people seem to think is so much more better than what we had when games were actual that, games....

Fairplayalways (Offaly) - Posts: 1034 - 09/02/2021 16:12:21    2330844

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Think this thread is going down the road of the country as a whole. Too many needless rules and regulations to tackle problems that either dont exist or are inevitable anyway. Hurling doesnt need nanny state like rules for their own sake. People should watch back or read some highlights about some of the great goalscorers of the past. Big men who scored goals despite the defences best efforts to foul them. Read about Nicky Rackards battles with Pat Hayden. Watch some of Tony Dorans goals back. Even in more recent times I remember goals that Fennelly scored against us despite defenders fouling him. Sometimes attackers are going to ground too easily looking for a free in when if they just drove on through they would get a goal. I agree defenders are bigger and stronger with the better S and C available nowadays but so too are forwards. Our population as a whole is taller and you cant tell lads not to be in the gym. The game is evolving. Not sure endless debates about more rules or more rules being introduced on the back of these debates serves any real purpose.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11864 - 09/02/2021 16:17:29    2330845

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Replying To Viking66:  "Think this thread is going down the road of the country as a whole. Too many needless rules and regulations to tackle problems that either dont exist or are inevitable anyway. Hurling doesnt need nanny state like rules for their own sake. People should watch back or read some highlights about some of the great goalscorers of the past. Big men who scored goals despite the defences best efforts to foul them. Read about Nicky Rackards battles with Pat Hayden. Watch some of Tony Dorans goals back. Even in more recent times I remember goals that Fennelly scored against us despite defenders fouling him. Sometimes attackers are going to ground too easily looking for a free in when if they just drove on through they would get a goal. I agree defenders are bigger and stronger with the better S and C available nowadays but so too are forwards. Our population as a whole is taller and you cant tell lads not to be in the gym. The game is evolving. Not sure endless debates about more rules or more rules being introduced on the back of these debates serves any real purpose."
We have had very few rule changes in hurling over the years... a big one was making a hand passed goal illegal. That took some persuading to get that through.
The second one is the penalty one on one.
Both of those have made the game better and more exciting!
I dont think that posters saying forwards should expect to be fouled if they are going for a goal is good enough justification for saying we dont need change.
The Diamond Hayden and Rackard was a different time where the full back shunted out the full forward and that was his role, to protect the goal keeper who was fair game for the forwards. Those were different times. As for Red Tony and his huge paw, and then hand passing over his head usually, well that is not allowed today ! I saw Tony many many times and he was a massive threat with the high ball close to the square for club and county. It was exciting no doubting that and he was the most dangerous forward for years.

The use of the free hand is there around 9 years, developed primarily by Kilkenny. That can very easily be sorted. And I agree that players are pretending to be fouled when they are in tight spots as well. Those things can be sorted too.

I think its time to look to the future, what can be effectively changed to make the game better.

We should not fall into the mindset that the game is fine and leave it alone. Look at recent comments from Ned Quinn plus some Limerick players.... change can make things better !!!

carlowman (Carlow) - Posts: 1821 - 09/02/2021 17:18:25    2330854

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Replying To carlowman:  "We have had very few rule changes in hurling over the years... a big one was making a hand passed goal illegal. That took some persuading to get that through.
The second one is the penalty one on one.
Both of those have made the game better and more exciting!
I dont think that posters saying forwards should expect to be fouled if they are going for a goal is good enough justification for saying we dont need change.
The Diamond Hayden and Rackard was a different time where the full back shunted out the full forward and that was his role, to protect the goal keeper who was fair game for the forwards. Those were different times. As for Red Tony and his huge paw, and then hand passing over his head usually, well that is not allowed today ! I saw Tony many many times and he was a massive threat with the high ball close to the square for club and county. It was exciting no doubting that and he was the most dangerous forward for years.

The use of the free hand is there around 9 years, developed primarily by Kilkenny. That can very easily be sorted. And I agree that players are pretending to be fouled when they are in tight spots as well. Those things can be sorted too.

I think its time to look to the future, what can be effectively changed to make the game better.

We should not fall into the mindset that the game is fine and leave it alone. Look at recent comments from Ned Quinn plus some Limerick players.... change can make things better !!!"
Carlowman. What article was it where Ned Quinn was speaking. I didn't see it.

I do take on board all your points. I think point one is the simplest to deal with.
I don't think the hand pass is a probem and I believe it enhances the game. As Viking said it will lead to more rucks if the stroke has to be more visible.
Re all cynical fouls - maybe like soccer you get a yellow card and after two yellows you automatically miss the next game? Also, yellows have to carry through to the next game. Again this is for cynical fouling only. This includes pulling the jersey, holding the hurley, pretending to be pulled back when in fact you're pulling your opponents hurley. And of course the more obvious cynical fouls.
The free hand is still a cynical foul but I'm not sure if it's that big a problem?

The one thing I would say for high level games is to take the time keeping, score keeping and substitutes from the referee to allow them to focus more on the play. Bring the lines man more into it. Also, I believe puckouts are taken too quickly. Doesn't give the opposition any time to get into position.

Seeking_silver (Limerick) - Posts: 411 - 09/02/2021 19:16:36    2330870

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Replying To Viking66:  "Think this thread is going down the road of the country as a whole. Too many needless rules and regulations to tackle problems that either dont exist or are inevitable anyway. Hurling doesnt need nanny state like rules for their own sake. People should watch back or read some highlights about some of the great goalscorers of the past. Big men who scored goals despite the defences best efforts to foul them. Read about Nicky Rackards battles with Pat Hayden. Watch some of Tony Dorans goals back. Even in more recent times I remember goals that Fennelly scored against us despite defenders fouling him. Sometimes attackers are going to ground too easily looking for a free in when if they just drove on through they would get a goal. I agree defenders are bigger and stronger with the better S and C available nowadays but so too are forwards. Our population as a whole is taller and you cant tell lads not to be in the gym. The game is evolving. Not sure endless debates about more rules or more rules being introduced on the back of these debates serves any real purpose."
I only suggested that every player pick up their own man for a puckout and force a goalie to go long- no rule change there. Look at Limerick/Galway this year and Nash was free all day able to carry ball out to Hayes who will not be stopped when he starts running. His carrying ball was able to free up Morrissey and Hegarty to score while unmarked at times while Mannion the Galway sweeper/ free man was irrelevant in the match after 15 mins. If Galway had played man on man then Nash would have been tested as a corner back which was something we in Limerick were worried about. Galways tactical use of Mannion not only suited Limerick it also took one of Galways best players out of the game and he is capable of scoring from out the field and marking a good hurler out of the game at the same time. So.if some teams tried man on man this would nearly be seen as a new tactic at this stage.

updwell (Limerick) - Posts: 817 - 09/02/2021 19:32:54    2330873

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Replying To Seeking_silver:  "Carlowman. What article was it where Ned Quinn was speaking. I didn't see it.

I do take on board all your points. I think point one is the simplest to deal with.
I don't think the hand pass is a probem and I believe it enhances the game. As Viking said it will lead to more rucks if the stroke has to be more visible.
Re all cynical fouls - maybe like soccer you get a yellow card and after two yellows you automatically miss the next game? Also, yellows have to carry through to the next game. Again this is for cynical fouling only. This includes pulling the jersey, holding the hurley, pretending to be pulled back when in fact you're pulling your opponents hurley. And of course the more obvious cynical fouls.
The free hand is still a cynical foul but I'm not sure if it's that big a problem?

The one thing I would say for high level games is to take the time keeping, score keeping and substitutes from the referee to allow them to focus more on the play. Bring the lines man more into it. Also, I believe puckouts are taken too quickly. Doesn't give the opposition any time to get into position."
Good points made ! Ned Quinn spoke in the last 2 weeks and in today's Times he is again mentioned where Pat Daly speaks a lot about the technicalities of dealing with cynical fouling and what needs to be taken into consideration when dealing with it as compared to rugby and soccer where they also deal with cynical fouling.
So, a big effort is being put in relation to the wording of a motion for consideration at Congress.

I agree with you in taking time keeping subs etc out of the hands of the referee. The last thing he needs to be dealing with,and it can be the most contentious is the time keeping.
The linesmen are more involved now than ever but sometimes they dont actually help out the referee in an obvious way and perhaps this is because they are often so close to the action that they miss what had happened. But ,linesmen need to be as involved as needs be so that the game is referred better.
Perhaps your idea of yellow cards carrying forward is worthy of serious consideration as well.

On the hand pass, thinking that its more a push off the hand today as opposed to a specific and clear strike. The current style certainly speeds up the play but should incorrect use of the handpass be glossed over for a faster delivery and so fewer rucks? To me, I just think it should be done right.
Overall, we have a great game when it is played by the top teams especially, and if we have the courage and leadership in the GAA it can be even better.

carlowman (Carlow) - Posts: 1821 - 09/02/2021 20:28:01    2330880

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