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Hurling Referees Destroying Hurling

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In today's Irish times there's an article by Babs Keating describing what many people thought that last Saturday nights referring was the worst ever . The game is been punctuated unnecessarily by blowing and blowing of frees for the most Micky mouse reasons . Last Sunday at cork and limerick wasn't much better with Patrick Horgan scoring 15 or 16 points from frees many of a highly dubious nature and the same at the other end for Gillane .
Now they want to bring in a black card to create further drama ??
They will kill the game the way their going with their blowing and blowing and blowing of the most Micky mouse things .

OpenStand (Limerick) - Posts: 288 - 26/02/2020 07:10:19    2270230

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Its not fair to the ref to call it the worst performance ever as Babs did. The ref was very sharp and consistent in calling technical fouls most of which were arms around the shoulder, high tackles and throws. Nothing sinister but fouls none the less. Babs doesnt describe one single example of a foul that should not have been blown as a free. Instead he just tells us that there was too many frees.
What are mickey mouse things? Are they not in the rule book?

ZUL10 (Clare) - Posts: 598 - 26/02/2020 09:17:25    2270243

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Maybe some of these hurling folk who slate refs constantly for enforcing the rules of the game should form their own breakaway organisation where there are no rules and players can just do what they like.....

sourmilk93 (Roscommon) - Posts: 512 - 26/02/2020 09:47:03    2270247

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Replying To sourmilk93:  "Maybe some of these hurling folk who slate refs constantly for enforcing the rules of the game should form their own breakaway organisation where there are no rules and players can just do what they like....."
But sure ''it's part of the game''

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 391 - 26/02/2020 10:17:35    2270252

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Babs Keating.........need you say more

witnof (Dublin) - Posts: 1578 - 26/02/2020 10:19:46    2270253

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Replying To ZUL10:  "Its not fair to the ref to call it the worst performance ever as Babs did. The ref was very sharp and consistent in calling technical fouls most of which were arms around the shoulder, high tackles and throws. Nothing sinister but fouls none the less. Babs doesnt describe one single example of a foul that should not have been blown as a free. Instead he just tells us that there was too many frees.
What are mickey mouse things? Are they not in the rule book?"
On Sunday night Rte showed about 4 perfectly legal handpasses that the referee blew during the Dublin/Wexford match. Except for very late in the game he hardly allowed any advantage to be played. Perhaps his whistle was telling him it had had enough.

lochgarmanabu (Wexford) - Posts: 990 - 26/02/2020 10:59:58    2270262

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Babs is over the top as usual but we certainly do have a problem with refereeing and it's not always the referee's fault. I certainly wouldn't consider Johnny Murphy the worst referee around, but it's becoming an increasingly difficult job, and I suspect many of them are simply trying to apply the rules as dictated by their assessors. I'd fully agree with Babs on one point - the ball is far too light. In most games nowadays teams are scoring 20 points or more, with many of these points coming from frees, some from 100 yards out. OK, it's a great skill to be able to do this but the result is that some teams are mostly playing with no full forward line. And let's be honest, many players are deliberately playing for frees all over the field in the knowledge that their freetaker is likely to point the free. The result is that fewer goals are being scored and indeed goalkeepers can sometimes go through a whole game without having to make a serious save. Again, I'm not blaming the referees, but a heavier ball would certainly make their job easier, as well as leading to more goalmouth action.

midlands (Westmeath) - Posts: 199 - 26/02/2020 11:25:26    2270276

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Replying To lochgarmanabu:  "On Sunday night Rte showed about 4 perfectly legal handpasses that the referee blew during the Dublin/Wexford match. Except for very late in the game he hardly allowed any advantage to be played. Perhaps his whistle was telling him it had had enough."
I agree with you on the advantage, he certainly didnt use it. But the ref doesn't have the luxury of an rte camera to zoom in on a handpass to tell whether there was space between the hand and the ball. But it wasnt either of these that seemed blatant frees to me. It was the over use of the spare hand around the shoulder and neck, yet for every free that was awarded and point scored the players kept fouling over and over again. Surely theres a message in this for the players too?

ZUL10 (Clare) - Posts: 598 - 26/02/2020 11:32:29    2270280

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Lads criticisim of referees is reaching dangerous levels now, lads if referees keep getting the abuse they are getting from players, managers and now media we will have no one to officiate our games. There is a brilliant video on youtube where Brian Clough challenges John Motson on match of the day for their treatment and scrutiny of referees and Clough made great points that the referee has only a split moment to get decisions right and they are only human at the end of the day.

I didn't see Wexford and Dublin so I won't comment but the Limerick vs Cork I'll admit Sean Clere hadn't a great day especially blowing on handpasses but I don't blame him for stopping quick puck-out referees need a chance to ready themselves on the re-start. There are so many frees scored nowadays not because of free count but because the modern day sloither it's so light if you are a good striker of a ball you can put a ball over the bar from 90/100 yards out.

In my own opinion to improve officiating in hurling the GAA has either 2 choices, 1 is they referee hurling like American football or Ice hockey where there is 2 or 3 different officials on the field and linesmen and umpires have to set up more to help out too. 2 they go back to the old match sloithar from the 90's, hurlers can puck a ball 80/90 yards because of how light the ball is now, you can't expect 1 man to chase around the field for over 70 minutes and expect him to see everything too.

DUALSUPPORT (Limerick) - Posts: 679 - 26/02/2020 11:53:58    2270283

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Replying To witnof:  "Babs Keating.........need you say more"
beat me to it.

perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3771 - 26/02/2020 13:13:04    2270297

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Replying To DUALSUPPORT:  "Lads criticisim of referees is reaching dangerous levels now, lads if referees keep getting the abuse they are getting from players, managers and now media we will have no one to officiate our games. There is a brilliant video on youtube where Brian Clough challenges John Motson on match of the day for their treatment and scrutiny of referees and Clough made great points that the referee has only a split moment to get decisions right and they are only human at the end of the day.

I didn't see Wexford and Dublin so I won't comment but the Limerick vs Cork I'll admit Sean Clere hadn't a great day especially blowing on handpasses but I don't blame him for stopping quick puck-out referees need a chance to ready themselves on the re-start. There are so many frees scored nowadays not because of free count but because the modern day sloither it's so light if you are a good striker of a ball you can put a ball over the bar from 90/100 yards out.

In my own opinion to improve officiating in hurling the GAA has either 2 choices, 1 is they referee hurling like American football or Ice hockey where there is 2 or 3 different officials on the field and linesmen and umpires have to set up more to help out too. 2 they go back to the old match sloithar from the 90's, hurlers can puck a ball 80/90 yards because of how light the ball is now, you can't expect 1 man to chase around the field for over 70 minutes and expect him to see everything too."
nail on the head.i would love to see any of the pundits go out and referee a match.
gaa refereeing is the ultimate thankless job.from u8 you are being abused by parents/players/coaches - for what €30?most people could work an extra hour or two and earn it rather than driving to a gaa pitch and being abused for 2 hours.we are fast heading towards an era where we will have no referees.what is the solution?more abuse?that'll improve them? come off it.

if i was to think of 1 person to provoke a negative answer in gaa,i would go to babs.and all he can propose is a heavier ball? i would add:

1. 2 on-pitch referees for all games (the gaa can well afford this).forget about umpires seeing off the ball incidents they can hardly see the 21.if there is a bit of inconsistency,deal with it.
2. throw-in being up in the air and players are only allowed try catch it, i.e. no hurls.if it hits a 3rd player before it hits the ground,its a free against him.this will encourage players to give the players space,stop rucks,stop the ball being stuck in the ground from a throw-in.
3. take the timekeeping and score keeping off the referee.he has enough to deal with.
4. distinguish between player trying to win the ball and one trying to foul.i think we have forgotten about the 1st one.
5. where available,use tv review for off-the-ball incidents,and send off the aggressor ONLY.

right now,more than ever,referees need support not criticism.the refereeing over the weekend was awful,but the game needs them.we are all human.its easy to spot a foul in slow-motion.

perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3771 - 26/02/2020 13:26:07    2270302

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Another 3 to help them out from this corner:
1. (Applies only to inter-county). For "Last play" scenarios, if referee thinks umpire/linesman has missed something, ask TMO for "conclusive evidence of a 65/penalty/whatever". This can only be used in the last play of the game, like the Limerick-Kilkenny game last yr. It is way better than relying on the blue rinse brigade on the post (not always their fault mind)
2. TMO for off-the-ball incidents. Cut out the "2 of them in it" as perfrect10 says.
3. I would bring in a "defensive free" inside a players own 65 where a player who is coming out with possession is fouled, he is given a free but play on and hit the ball it out of his hand but the opposition has to let him play it. It encourages less fouling and teams always foul here to allow their defence to get back.

I have always reckoned a referee never goes out to do a bad job any more than a player goes out to play a bad game. We all get frustrated when decisions go against us, but it is what it is and people need to learn to deal with it, or stand up and become a ref.

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 807 - 26/02/2020 15:35:58    2270326

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Replying To DUALSUPPORT:  "Lads criticisim of referees is reaching dangerous levels now, lads if referees keep getting the abuse they are getting from players, managers and now media we will have no one to officiate our games. There is a brilliant video on youtube where Brian Clough challenges John Motson on match of the day for their treatment and scrutiny of referees and Clough made great points that the referee has only a split moment to get decisions right and they are only human at the end of the day.

I didn't see Wexford and Dublin so I won't comment but the Limerick vs Cork I'll admit Sean Clere hadn't a great day especially blowing on handpasses but I don't blame him for stopping quick puck-out referees need a chance to ready themselves on the re-start. There are so many frees scored nowadays not because of free count but because the modern day sloither it's so light if you are a good striker of a ball you can put a ball over the bar from 90/100 yards out.

In my own opinion to improve officiating in hurling the GAA has either 2 choices, 1 is they referee hurling like American football or Ice hockey where there is 2 or 3 different officials on the field and linesmen and umpires have to set up more to help out too. 2 they go back to the old match sloithar from the 90's, hurlers can puck a ball 80/90 yards because of how light the ball is now, you can't expect 1 man to chase around the field for over 70 minutes and expect him to see everything too."
But all that said, and they all good points. But we have 7 officials at the game, 4 are unqualified (or qualification is not a requirement) and two must be qualified ref's, yet arguably the ref consults more with his umpires then he does with his linesmen. So you have three qualified ref's on a pitch and only one looks after everything including the scorer's, time keeping, fouls while two do practically nothing. Just empower them all at Intercounty level.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4379 - 26/02/2020 15:56:07    2270331

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I'm sick of these oils dinosaurs commenting on modern hurling

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1032 - 26/02/2020 17:56:27    2270348

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Maybe the onus is on players to commit fewer fouls?? The ref can only deal with what he sees, and try to implement the rules as they stand.

football first (None) - Posts: 1168 - 26/02/2020 18:16:11    2270352

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Replying To arock:  "But all that said, and they all good points. But we have 7 officials at the game, 4 are unqualified (or qualification is not a requirement) and two must be qualified ref's, yet arguably the ref consults more with his umpires then he does with his linesmen. So you have three qualified ref's on a pitch and only one looks after everything including the scorer's, time keeping, fouls while two do practically nothing. Just empower them all at Intercounty level."
Simple solution. My question is why does the media keep asking Babs for his opinion?

gatha (Kilkenny) - Posts: 135 - 26/02/2020 21:05:16    2270387

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So the logic goes something like, yes the game is gone like football where its a possession game and defenders are carrying the ball out rather than hitting it long down the field but we don't want frees given to those defenders by the attackers because these days its too easy to score points from frees from distance. Are we saying that Refs shouldn't give frees and allow forwards to prevent the ball for being carried out?
Advantage rule - now I will admit that he didn't seem to use it all the time very well but so what, in the two examples given on the TV there was no guarantee of scores and if there is a good free taker they should be scores - nobody will complain if the score the free. Actually nobody will complain if the win an All Ireland only from scoring frees. Advantage in hurling is not like in football - in fact its the same reason they are complaining about the first part - lads can score from frees all over the park and if thats the case why give an advantage. Remember if the player with the ball fouls it, then its a free the other way regardless of advantage.
Handpass. The lads made a big deal of this on the show. A reminder of the rules
Rule; To handpass the ball without it being released and struck with a definite striking action of a hand.
Definition; The ball shall be released and struck with a definite striking action of a hand. The releasing of the ball is considered an integral part of the handpass
Rugby has a rule about the release of the player after the tackle and believe me even on the TV thats hard to see. Imagine how hard it is to see a definite release and a definite strike of the ball in hurling. The onus should be on the players to prove it but in the GAA its turned around and the onus is on the ref to figure it out. I looked at the clips over and over and one comment from Derek is completely wrong - look you can see his fingers are open, that has nothing to do with a throw, you control the ball with the thumb and throw it with the fingers open to demonstrate to the ref its not a throw. I think Derek would perhaps have used this very tactic with his players to con refs. The videos are in rugby terms inconclusive - there would appear to be a gap between the hand and the ball however even after I throw the ball that gap will appear, what you need to see is if the gap as there before the strike and the TV doesn't show that. So what do you do about it - if you want to make sure the ref sees both then make it so.

There is not a game in the world where refs do not get calls wrong, even where there are video refs to assist them. Look at the most cited examples - Rugby and Soccer. There is a lot of controversial decisions made even when they use tmo or var. The other aspect is, lads are complaining about the stop start nature of the games due to frees etc, think about the impact on the game is these were introduced. However one of the biggest issues with tmo and var, is the cost and therefore is it worth it.
The problem with a lot of the GAA these days is that managers and commentators who are ex managers believe its up to the refs to catch their cheating and they take no responsibility for the way the game is played. You have ex players say that managers never told them to cheat but it was expected - I don't see any difference.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 957 - 27/02/2020 02:23:57    2270425

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Replying To arock:  "But all that said, and they all good points. But we have 7 officials at the game, 4 are unqualified (or qualification is not a requirement) and two must be qualified ref's, yet arguably the ref consults more with his umpires then he does with his linesmen. So you have three qualified ref's on a pitch and only one looks after everything including the scorer's, time keeping, fouls while two do practically nothing. Just empower them all at Intercounty level."
Well said, I've been making the same point for years. At inter county level the umpires should without a doubt have to be qualified referees, not just mates of the ref, its too serious a job and there's too much on the line in these games. Also the ball moves so fast and umpires can see a lot more than the ref at the best of times.
So instead of looking at black cards for hurling the GAA need to start addressing some of the real issues.

Bon (Kildare) - Posts: 940 - 27/02/2020 10:33:20    2270449

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Replying To zinny:  "So the logic goes something like, yes the game is gone like football where its a possession game and defenders are carrying the ball out rather than hitting it long down the field but we don't want frees given to those defenders by the attackers because these days its too easy to score points from frees from distance. Are we saying that Refs shouldn't give frees and allow forwards to prevent the ball for being carried out?
Advantage rule - now I will admit that he didn't seem to use it all the time very well but so what, in the two examples given on the TV there was no guarantee of scores and if there is a good free taker they should be scores - nobody will complain if the score the free. Actually nobody will complain if the win an All Ireland only from scoring frees. Advantage in hurling is not like in football - in fact its the same reason they are complaining about the first part - lads can score from frees all over the park and if thats the case why give an advantage. Remember if the player with the ball fouls it, then its a free the other way regardless of advantage.
Handpass. The lads made a big deal of this on the show. A reminder of the rules
Rule; To handpass the ball without it being released and struck with a definite striking action of a hand.
Definition; The ball shall be released and struck with a definite striking action of a hand. The releasing of the ball is considered an integral part of the handpass
Rugby has a rule about the release of the player after the tackle and believe me even on the TV thats hard to see. Imagine how hard it is to see a definite release and a definite strike of the ball in hurling. The onus should be on the players to prove it but in the GAA its turned around and the onus is on the ref to figure it out. I looked at the clips over and over and one comment from Derek is completely wrong - look you can see his fingers are open, that has nothing to do with a throw, you control the ball with the thumb and throw it with the fingers open to demonstrate to the ref its not a throw. I think Derek would perhaps have used this very tactic with his players to con refs. The videos are in rugby terms inconclusive - there would appear to be a gap between the hand and the ball however even after I throw the ball that gap will appear, what you need to see is if the gap as there before the strike and the TV doesn't show that. So what do you do about it - if you want to make sure the ref sees both then make it so.

There is not a game in the world where refs do not get calls wrong, even where there are video refs to assist them. Look at the most cited examples - Rugby and Soccer. There is a lot of controversial decisions made even when they use tmo or var. The other aspect is, lads are complaining about the stop start nature of the games due to frees etc, think about the impact on the game is these were introduced. However one of the biggest issues with tmo and var, is the cost and therefore is it worth it.
The problem with a lot of the GAA these days is that managers and commentators who are ex managers believe its up to the refs to catch their cheating and they take no responsibility for the way the game is played. You have ex players say that managers never told them to cheat but it was expected - I don't see any difference."
I agree with the vast majority of that. Teams and management seem to take no responsibility for trying to cin the ref for 70 minutes and make his job near impossible. Yet they'll happily lay into him when he gets some decisions wrong.
However, I disagree with your point on the advantage rule, i.e. that it doesn't matter because teans in hurling are likely to score the free anyway.
The main benefit of the advantage rule is it leads to goalscoring chances in many scenarios. These being blown back for frees can be very frustrating and essentially reward the player who was trying to foul. Refs have the ability to raise their hand and hold off with the whistle in these situations. It should be exercised as much as possible.
I'm not referring to the incidents on the weekend specifically, but in general.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 816 - 27/02/2020 11:14:13    2270462

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Loads of rubbish about common sense referring. This type of "Common sense" means the ref decides when he applies the rules. Hardly fair and hardly common sense!

If the rules are wrong change the rules. Don't have rules and not apply them. Like the a 65 when the goalie steps outside the small box taking a puck out.................. the day they applied it (correctly as per the rules) all hell broke lose!

What does let it flow mean?? Liberal application of the advantage rule.......thats ok. But not giving a free when someone is fouled and has no advantage????

I'd love Cody or some of these hurling is perfect as it is merchants to tell me what fouls should not be fouls...... usually only the fouls committed by their own team! They should then make a proposal to have the rules changed to allow them....................

Mayonman (Galway) - Posts: 1266 - 27/02/2020 16:20:08    2270515

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