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Replying To Furlong1949: "You said I am using statistics to prove a point. Yes I do use statistics to prove a point. Because statistics are facts. Statistics = Facts. Its not an opinion , its not a viewpoints. Its a fact. If you disagree with the facts well thats another thing altogether. You cannot change a fact , a fact is a truth. Its concrete proper analysis. You might not like the fact but you cannot change a fact.
We live in twitter world. In twitter you are only allowed a short number of words. So deep analysis deep discussion can be frowned upon. And facts and statistics also can be seen as boring and less relevant in the modern world. But facts and statistics are very important and relevant. Because they give a concrete example of what is actually happening. A fact is a truth. I might be repetitive and long winded in some people minds but I try to back up what I am saying with facts.
The fact is which again you ignored is the two team that could have beaten pipped Meath for promotion on the last day Kildare and Fermamagh , ( you keep ignoring this fact because you dont lke this fact ) had strong teams in the league close to their championship team. Yes Armagh and Cork had changed teams. Thats a fact. I can accept that a fact. But you wouldnt mention that the two teams we played who could have beaten us for promotion, had strong lines up in the league. Some of the teams had strong line ups others didnt . You give this impression that all the teams were very weak thats why Meath got promoted.
Thats not the reality of what happenned. Things are much more complicated and multi layered the.n that.
Fact 1
When Meath played kildare , kildares starting 15 had 13 players who started v Dublin in the leinster championship later on in the summer. kildare had a strong team in last years league. kildare could have beaten us for promotion on the last day.
Fact 2
When Meath played Fermanagh , Fermanagh starting 15 had 13 players who started v Donegal in the Ulster championship later on in the summer. Fermanagh had a strong team in last years league. Fermanagh could have beaten us for promotion on the last day.
The two teams that were in contention for promotion with us in the last day Kildare and Fermanagh had strong teams in the league.
Fact 3
When Meath played Clare in the qualifiers in the biggest game of the year for Meath , Clare had 13 players starting in that qualiifier who started v Meath in the league. Clare had a strong team in the league
Now leaving stats and facts to one. A bit of anaylsis Why were Meath was promoted, it is not simplistic eg other team missing players. When any team has some sucess the reasons are mulitiayered and complicated. Why Meath were promoted.
Ten Reasons why Meath were promoted
1 McEntee in his third season , it takes years for a manager to start making an impact with a traditional county in doldrums.
2 Meath defence improved dramatically. Meath had the best defence in the division.
3 Keoghan was moved permantly to the half back line last year , J McEntee was moved to the half back line. It meant a problem area for years, half back line was now an area of strenght
4 Meath had strong full back line of Lavin McGill Gallagher. First time in years Meaths full back line was not shakey.
5 Meath have good defenders eg Keoghan , McGill , The Ryans, Lavin , Gallagher , Kane , McCoy and Harnan ( injured)
6 Menton turned into one of best attacking midfielders in the country. Brian Menton scored 3 - 9 in the championship meaning he was top scoring midfielder from play in last years championship. Brian Fenton was second. Menton maturity helped Meath in the league.
7 Mickey Newman playing his first season injurry free in 5 years. Newman ended up 4th top scorer in the championship.
8 A massive reason was the introduction of talented young players who made immediate impact. Meath have produced very few young players in recent years who made an immediate impact. 7 under 20 players played for Meath in last years league. The last time so many 19 and 20 year old were playing for Meath was in the 90s. Players like Dara Campion were excellent in the league.
9 Meath brought in allot of new players last year who never played for Meath eg 7 under 20 players , and players like Ronan Ryan Niall kane. These players played well.
10 Introduction of Nally as new coach last year . Nally is one of best coachs in leinster. He is hugely popular coach with the players. Every team need a quality coach. Nally is one of the most respected coachs who has produced manuals on modern coaching.
So in summary Meath defence improved dramatically , a new coach and new young talent on the panel were all concrete reasons why Meath got promoted. There was many reasons.
These are some of the reasons why Meath got promoted. Meath improved dramatically from 2018 to 2019. Meath in 2018 were dreadul at times , players low in confidence. In 2019 league Meath performance improved with some excellent performance in the league. The Meath performance v Donegal in Ballybofey in first 60 mins was the best I have seen from Meath team in last 5 or 6 years. It was quality , intelligent football . Meath also in first half v Donegal in league final played some great long ball attacking football. Meath played very well in last years league.
In the super 8 we were beaten by better teams better players with lots more experience. Kerry Donegal and Mayo are better teams.
I have always given the lads a chance. In the first three years I would have been saying we need to give the players and managers lots and lots of time. When McEntee took the job I said it was 5 or 6 year job. For me McEntee is only half way through the job. To build Meath up will take years and years. Many ups and down. We still have to give the players and manager lots of times. I am just optimistic. There are ground to be optimistic. But if we have a very bad year this year nd next year also. Thats football. We have to keep trying in the 2020s." More of the same waffle and repetitive nonsence (one area we can agree on is you long winded approach it attempting to get a simple point across) To finish; a fact is something that can be proven with evidence. statistics, unlike fact can be manipulated to suit any arguement, just revisit you recent novels to see what I mean.
seadog54 (Meath) - Posts: 2136 - 26/01/2020 00:38:33
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Playing a very passionate traditional county and I can go back to when unbeaten top of the table Tyrone lost to Meath in Omagh in 1985 but the plain truth is that Tyrone must beat Meath today to have any chance of staying up. Tyrone by 2 points.
Byanthon (Tyrone) - Posts: 1780 - 26/01/2020 07:49:11
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Replying To Furlong1949: "You said I am using statistics to prove a point. Yes I do use statistics to prove a point. Because statistics are facts. Statistics = Facts. Its not an opinion , its not a viewpoints. Its a fact. If you disagree with the facts well thats another thing altogether. You cannot change a fact , a fact is a truth. Its concrete proper analysis. You might not like the fact but you cannot change a fact.
We live in twitter world. In twitter you are only allowed a short number of words. So deep analysis deep discussion can be frowned upon. And facts and statistics also can be seen as boring and less relevant in the modern world. But facts and statistics are very important and relevant. Because they give a concrete example of what is actually happening. A fact is a truth. I might be repetitive and long winded in some people minds but I try to back up what I am saying with facts.
The fact is which again you ignored is the two team that could have beaten pipped Meath for promotion on the last day Kildare and Fermamagh , ( you keep ignoring this fact because you dont lke this fact ) had strong teams in the league close to their championship team. Yes Armagh and Cork had changed teams. Thats a fact. I can accept that a fact. But you wouldnt mention that the two teams we played who could have beaten us for promotion, had strong lines up in the league. Some of the teams had strong line ups others didnt . You give this impression that all the teams were very weak thats why Meath got promoted.
Thats not the reality of what happenned. Things are much more complicated and multi layered the.n that.
Fact 1
When Meath played kildare , kildares starting 15 had 13 players who started v Dublin in the leinster championship later on in the summer. kildare had a strong team in last years league. kildare could have beaten us for promotion on the last day.
Fact 2
When Meath played Fermanagh , Fermanagh starting 15 had 13 players who started v Donegal in the Ulster championship later on in the summer. Fermanagh had a strong team in last years league. Fermanagh could have beaten us for promotion on the last day.
The two teams that were in contention for promotion with us in the last day Kildare and Fermanagh had strong teams in the league.
Fact 3
When Meath played Clare in the qualifiers in the biggest game of the year for Meath , Clare had 13 players starting in that qualiifier who started v Meath in the league. Clare had a strong team in the league
Now leaving stats and facts to one. A bit of anaylsis Why were Meath was promoted, it is not simplistic eg other team missing players. When any team has some sucess the reasons are mulitiayered and complicated. Why Meath were promoted.
Ten Reasons why Meath were promoted
1 McEntee in his third season , it takes years for a manager to start making an impact with a traditional county in doldrums.
2 Meath defence improved dramatically. Meath had the best defence in the division.
3 Keoghan was moved permantly to the half back line last year , J McEntee was moved to the half back line. It meant a problem area for years, half back line was now an area of strenght
4 Meath had strong full back line of Lavin McGill Gallagher. First time in years Meaths full back line was not shakey.
5 Meath have good defenders eg Keoghan , McGill , The Ryans, Lavin , Gallagher , Kane , McCoy and Harnan ( injured)
6 Menton turned into one of best attacking midfielders in the country. Brian Menton scored 3 - 9 in the championship meaning he was top scoring midfielder from play in last years championship. Brian Fenton was second. Menton maturity helped Meath in the league.
7 Mickey Newman playing his first season injurry free in 5 years. Newman ended up 4th top scorer in the championship.
8 A massive reason was the introduction of talented young players who made immediate impact. Meath have produced very few young players in recent years who made an immediate impact. 7 under 20 players played for Meath in last years league. The last time so many 19 and 20 year old were playing for Meath was in the 90s. Players like Dara Campion were excellent in the league.
9 Meath brought in allot of new players last year who never played for Meath eg 7 under 20 players , and players like Ronan Ryan Niall kane. These players played well.
10 Introduction of Nally as new coach last year . Nally is one of best coachs in leinster. He is hugely popular coach with the players. Every team need a quality coach. Nally is one of the most respected coachs who has produced manuals on modern coaching.
So in summary Meath defence improved dramatically , a new coach and new young talent on the panel were all concrete reasons why Meath got promoted. There was many reasons.
These are some of the reasons why Meath got promoted. Meath improved dramatically from 2018 to 2019. Meath in 2018 were dreadul at times , players low in confidence. In 2019 league Meath performance improved with some excellent performance in the league. The Meath performance v Donegal in Ballybofey in first 60 mins was the best I have seen from Meath team in last 5 or 6 years. It was quality , intelligent football . Meath also in first half v Donegal in league final played some great long ball attacking football. Meath played very well in last years league.
In the super 8 we were beaten by better teams better players with lots more experience. Kerry Donegal and Mayo are better teams.
I have always given the lads a chance. In the first three years I would have been saying we need to give the players and managers lots and lots of time. When McEntee took the job I said it was 5 or 6 year job. For me McEntee is only half way through the job. To build Meath up will take years and years. Many ups and down. We still have to give the players and manager lots of times. I am just optimistic. There are ground to be optimistic. But if we have a very bad year this year nd next year also. Thats football. We have to keep trying in the 2020s." Good post, I think you make a lot of relevant points, particularly about our defense becoming stronger and more steady under McEntee. You have to sort your defense out and work up from there and I think we've done that.
For me our next big hurdle is litterally learning how to win against the top teams. We know we can be competitive, we proved that last year, 3 times against Donegal and once against Mayo and Kerry. But we lost all those games because we faded out in the final 10mins, whereas they all pushed on.
Be interesting to see how we get on in div1, this is where we want be and hopefully we'll cement our place but it will take a lot of hard work and improvement to do so.
Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 26/01/2020 08:16:10
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Replying To Furlong1949: "Meath Team Annonuced
1 Colgan
2 Clarke
3McGill
4 Toner
5 J McEntee
6 Ryan
7 Keoghan
8 Menton
9 B Conlon
10 Brennan
11 McMahon
12 E Wallace
13 Sullivan
14 Reilly
15 Walsh
Gallagher must be injured. It looks like Meath have 6 or 7 injuries, all pretty much first team starters. So we are injured these players S Mcentee, Lavin, Devine, Gallagher, Harnan, Newman. Donal Lenihan is not named if he is injured he was v laois last day , that pretty much means 7 first team starters injured. That above Meath team that will start v Tyrone has 9 changes to the Meath team that played v Donegal in the super 8s last July. Meaths full back line which was really good last year eg lavin, McGill Gallagher is gone. Meath have two debutants in the full back line eg Clarke Toner" Great figures and we'll done, but the reasons are the crucial thing. How many players drop off panels because of lack of game time? Or change of management or poor management? No matter what we think it is a massive commitment and if players ask themselves why, they have already got one foot out the door. I would be interested in knowing the why, because only do you know if you have a problem. But interesting post.
arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4895 - 26/01/2020 08:58:30
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Replying To seadog54: "More of the same waffle and repetitive nonsence (one area we can agree on is you long winded approach it attempting to get a simple point across) To finish; a fact is something that can be proven with evidence. statistics, unlike fact can be manipulated to suit any arguement, just revisit you recent novels to see what I mean." You are critical of facts and statistics. You are critical of proper deep anaylsis. Theres no points in having debate with someone who doesnt agree with facts. I gives facts and then evidence. You then just disagree with factual evidence and just engage in personal insults. You cannot have conversation with someone who disagrees with facts. Its a waste of time and energy on everyones part. Im just repeating myself. And then your repeating yourself. I have no more to say on the matter with you.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 1067 - 26/01/2020 13:54:06
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Replying To Htaem: "Good post, I think you make a lot of relevant points, particularly about our defense becoming stronger and more steady under McEntee. You have to sort your defense out and work up from there and I think we've done that.
For me our next big hurdle is litterally learning how to win against the top teams. We know we can be competitive, we proved that last year, 3 times against Donegal and once against Mayo and Kerry. But we lost all those games because we faded out in the final 10mins, whereas they all pushed on.
Be interesting to see how we get on in div1, this is where we want be and hopefully we'll cement our place but it will take a lot of hard work and improvement to do so." Thanks for the comments Htaem I really appreciate it. Div 1 will be tough. Best teams in the country. Hopefully it goes well for us. I am not at the match. I had to bring sick relative to hospital. Just coming back from hospital now So I have to listen to the match on lmfm in the car on the way back. First time in years I have missed Meaths league opener. So lads on both sides whatever happens give us good detail after the match how things went. Thanks.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 1067 - 26/01/2020 13:59:58
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Replying To arock: "Great figures and we'll done, but the reasons are the crucial thing. How many players drop off panels because of lack of game time? Or change of management or poor management? No matter what we think it is a massive commitment and if players ask themselves why, they have already got one foot out the door. I would be interested in knowing the why, because only do you know if you have a problem. But interesting post." Thanks for the comment arock. I appreciate them.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 1067 - 26/01/2020 14:02:06
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Poor game overall. Tyrone notoriously slow starters in the league so this was a big chance for Meath, and ultimately they failed big time. Tyrone were there for the taking today.
A lot will blame the goal keepers and obviously they have to take a lot of the blame but where was Bryan Menton in the second half? Hiding and let Colm Cav catch ball after ball. Here's the leader in the middle and he downed tools.
Also management have to take some responsibility, they didn't seem to have a solution and just let it happen.
From a Tyrone point of view a lot of improvement needed. Handling errors and basic wrong decisions. Frank Burns didn't work at full forward. McCurry excellent. Ronan O'Neill played some great balls, especially for the goal. Bradley looked sharp when he came on. Colm Cav excellent. Morgan is up there with the best keepers in Ireland.
Overall good two points but Monaghan will fancy it next week.
Meath poor enough. No real fight. Not physical enough, naively running into 4 Tyrone players. Going to struggle in Div 1 big time.
The_Fridge (Tyrone) - Posts: 2088 - 26/01/2020 18:12:26
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First half from Meath was decent and should have been better given the chances created however we never showed up in the second half, keeper/kick out situation is a major problem and we had no penetration up front at all second half after getting into some good positions in the first and resorted to an awful lot of lateral play meaning plenty of possession but doing very little with it. Additionally we lost possession very cheaply at times and make some Division 2 errors against a Division 1 team, a very steep learning curve today but I won't lose all hope, next Sunday in Navan in crucial and will require a huge overall improvement in performance against a team who are missing key players, there should be no shortage of incentive and I expect to see a much better performance.
Richieq (Meath) - Posts: 3734 - 26/01/2020 18:25:16
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Replying To Furlong1949: "Thanks for the comments Htaem I really appreciate it. Div 1 will be tough. Best teams in the country. Hopefully it goes well for us. I am not at the match. I had to bring sick relative to hospital. Just coming back from hospital now So I have to listen to the match on lmfm in the car on the way back. First time in years I have missed Meaths league opener. So lads on both sides whatever happens give us good detail after the match how things went. Thanks." Sorry to hear you had to bring a relative to hospital Furlong, I hope everything turns out well.
I didn't get up there myself unfortunately, but it looks like we need to up our game, now I didn't see it so I can't comment too much but it looks like we never performed in the second half.
People will call it excuses but in fairness having 7-8 players out injured is hard for any team manage. Not the start we wanted but look, we are where we are, lets put this behind us and move on.
Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 26/01/2020 18:39:18
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Replying To The_Fridge: "Poor game overall. Tyrone notoriously slow starters in the league so this was a big chance for Meath, and ultimately they failed big time. Tyrone were there for the taking today.
A lot will blame the goal keepers and obviously they have to take a lot of the blame but where was Bryan Menton in the second half? Hiding and let Colm Cav catch ball after ball. Here's the leader in the middle and he downed tools.
Also management have to take some responsibility, they didn't seem to have a solution and just let it happen.
From a Tyrone point of view a lot of improvement needed. Handling errors and basic wrong decisions. Frank Burns didn't work at full forward. McCurry excellent. Ronan O'Neill played some great balls, especially for the goal. Bradley looked sharp when he came on. Colm Cav excellent. Morgan is up there with the best keepers in Ireland.
Overall good two points but Monaghan will fancy it next week.
Meath poor enough. No real fight. Not physical enough, naively running into 4 Tyrone players. Going to struggle in Div 1 big time." We started well enough and squandered a few chances early on. The big difference for me was Tyrone management could see a repeat of first half would not be good enough and made required changes, both players and style of play at ht. Our goalkeeper and kick out strategy has and still is a shambles. No evidence of any type of game plan in second half, only imput from sideline was to replace like for like. Have been told we have a top class coach but saw little evidence of that today. Going to find it very hard to break down Donegal next w/e. Hoping a win might give us a dose of much needed confidence.
seadog54 (Meath) - Posts: 2136 - 26/01/2020 19:22:15
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To be fair to Meath they gave it their all but just aren't at that level. I'm sure we will see them soon enough if we don't get promoted.
daytona11 (Kildare) - Posts: 4012 - 26/01/2020 19:44:52
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easy meat for tyrone , and a big possibility of Meath becoming Div 1 whipping boys .
BeJasus (UK) - Posts: 383 - 26/01/2020 20:00:59
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Replying To BeJasus: "easy meat for tyrone , and a big possibility of Meath becoming Div 1 whipping boys ." whipping boys i like that
lilypad (Kildare) - Posts: 1363 - 26/01/2020 20:43:18
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Look no excuses , but facts are facts we are decimated with injuries to first team players. That's not a excuse that's a fact, well over half that team that played today would be on the bench or possibly not even make the bench if we had everyone fit. We do not have the strength in depth to lose 7/8 starters against division one opponent, we are not at that level yet. We had two glaring goal chances go amiss in first half and I have to wonder if Newman Lenihan or Walsh was on the end of either of them would the outcome be different? All ifs and buts I know. first choice keeper getting injured in warm up was just another blow.
As I said not excuses but wow Lady Luck isn't shining on us in the injuries department.
That all been said changing keeper at halftime was a silly move and Andy must take full responsibility for such a unnecessary and tbh wrong decision.
We move on pairc tailteann will be buzzing next week. No one in Meath expects us to win this. We need 6 points. That is still very achievable. And finally
Well done to Tyrone , the better team won.
Hon the royal
royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 26/01/2020 20:50:24
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In fairness to Meath their season in Div 1 won't be defined by their away games. The 3 games in Navan are where they'll be targeting the 2 wins they'll need to stay up.
It's hard to see them getting anything on the road.
MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13705 - 26/01/2020 20:59:02
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Replying To daytona11: "To be fair to Meath they gave it their all but just aren't at that level. I'm sure we will see them soon enough if we don't get promoted." Championship, maybe
Sweetspot (Kildare) - Posts: 323 - 26/01/2020 21:01:13
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Replying To lilypad: "whipping boys i like that" No accounting for taste. Are you sure you are on the right site?
seadog54 (Meath) - Posts: 2136 - 26/01/2020 21:07:03
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Replying To seadog54: "No accounting for taste. Are you sure you are on the right site?" Years and years of bitter disappointment, constantly losing when it counts, even with outside expensively bought in players and managers will do that to your self esteem.
Crinigan (Meath) - Posts: 1316 - 26/01/2020 21:46:44
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Replying To lilypad: "whipping boys i like that" I think that's grinder you looking for.
royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 26/01/2020 21:47:57
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