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Why Are We Changing Our Game?!

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People are turning away from the games. I remeber 15 or 20 years ago people going to games , enjoying games even if there own county was not playing. You would go to see 4 teams for a quater final and ur own county wasnt playing. Niall Moyna DCU said he used to love going to see a few championship games in Croker over a weekend. Now he wouldnt go to see a football match to watch the spectacle the game has deteriotated to.

Hes not the only one . look at the drop of attendance.

In 2002 in quater final Kerry played Galway in Croke Park with Sligo and Armagh as the other quater final. 60000 people attended

This season is the first round of super 8 , kerry played Galway in Croke Park with Kildare and Monaghan as the other match. 30000 people turned up.

In 2002 in quarter final Dublin played Donegal in Croke Park with Mayo and Cork as the other game. 80000 people attended the game.

In 2002 Donegal played Dublin in a replay as the first match drew . 80000 turned up for the replay.

This season in the first round of super 8 , Donegal played Dublin with Roscommon and Tyrone as the other game. 50000 people turned up.

So in 2002 kerry played Galway with Armagh and Sligo and then Dublin played Donegal and Cork v Mayo in two championship quater final days in Croke Park and 140000 people turned up . At basically same stage of the championship this year kerry played Galway again and Dublin played Donegal again along with kildare v Monaghan and Roscommon v Tyrone in two championship in Croke Park and 80000 people turned up.

Do the maths that a drop of basically 60000 drop in attendance in people going to see teams at around the quater final stage. I know this year was at the first round of super 8 but still it shows how games at the stage of the competition between so of the same counties eg kerry v Galway , Donegal v Dublin. The drop in attendance is massive.

People were going to see open games of football with less hand passing and more kicking game. In those quarter finalgames in 2002 you could see players playing in great games of football. Players that played in those quater finals in 2002 were Padraig Joyce Michael Donnellan Ja Fallon Colm Cooper Seamus Moyihan Dara O Se Tomas O Se Dara Cinneade Mike Frank Russell Brendan Deeveney Jimmy McGuiness Kieran McGeeney Oisin McConville Stephen McDonnell Eamon O Hara Graham Canty Colm Corkery Ciaran McDonald David Brady Alan Brogan Ciaran Whelan. Many great players , very good games with high standard of football. 2 draws and overall close games. This year at the same time in championship with so many of the same teams you had not great games and 60000 drop in attendance. People are having less and less interest in the games. Thats a fact. The question is have we peaked in lack of interest or is it further to decline.

Every sports in the world changes rules. If you want to be a modern sport you must always evolve with the times. If not the games become stagnate and people turn away in large numbers. Its already happening.

Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 551 - 04/12/2018 19:28:32    2153331

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Because it has evolved into a game that is too defensive, too much hand passing and not enough goals scored. I am happy that our assoiciation are trying to do something about this with aim of trying to give us something that is more exciting....

downtothecore (Down) - Posts: 223 - 04/12/2018 20:02:18    2153335

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Replying To downtothecore:  "Because it has evolved into a game that is too defensive, too much hand passing and not enough goals scored. I am happy that our assoiciation are trying to do something about this with aim of trying to give us something that is more exciting...."
If you don't identify the reasons why it has evolved in such a way then doing something to change it may leave it worse, especially if your aim is off.

Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 905 - 05/12/2018 11:39:38    2153372

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Replying To Furlong1949:  "People are turning away from the games. I remeber 15 or 20 years ago people going to games , enjoying games even if there own county was not playing. You would go to see 4 teams for a quater final and ur own county wasnt playing. Niall Moyna DCU said he used to love going to see a few championship games in Croker over a weekend. Now he wouldnt go to see a football match to watch the spectacle the game has deteriotated to.

Hes not the only one . look at the drop of attendance.

In 2002 in quater final Kerry played Galway in Croke Park with Sligo and Armagh as the other quater final. 60000 people attended

This season is the first round of super 8 , kerry played Galway in Croke Park with Kildare and Monaghan as the other match. 30000 people turned up.

In 2002 in quarter final Dublin played Donegal in Croke Park with Mayo and Cork as the other game. 80000 people attended the game.

In 2002 Donegal played Dublin in a replay as the first match drew . 80000 turned up for the replay.

This season in the first round of super 8 , Donegal played Dublin with Roscommon and Tyrone as the other game. 50000 people turned up.

So in 2002 kerry played Galway with Armagh and Sligo and then Dublin played Donegal and Cork v Mayo in two championship quater final days in Croke Park and 140000 people turned up . At basically same stage of the championship this year kerry played Galway again and Dublin played Donegal again along with kildare v Monaghan and Roscommon v Tyrone in two championship in Croke Park and 80000 people turned up.

Do the maths that a drop of basically 60000 drop in attendance in people going to see teams at around the quater final stage. I know this year was at the first round of super 8 but still it shows how games at the stage of the competition between so of the same counties eg kerry v Galway , Donegal v Dublin. The drop in attendance is massive.

People were going to see open games of football with less hand passing and more kicking game. In those quarter finalgames in 2002 you could see players playing in great games of football. Players that played in those quater finals in 2002 were Padraig Joyce Michael Donnellan Ja Fallon Colm Cooper Seamus Moyihan Dara O Se Tomas O Se Dara Cinneade Mike Frank Russell Brendan Deeveney Jimmy McGuiness Kieran McGeeney Oisin McConville Stephen McDonnell Eamon O Hara Graham Canty Colm Corkery Ciaran McDonald David Brady Alan Brogan Ciaran Whelan. Many great players , very good games with high standard of football. 2 draws and overall close games. This year at the same time in championship with so many of the same teams you had not great games and 60000 drop in attendance. People are having less and less interest in the games. Thats a fact. The question is have we peaked in lack of interest or is it further to decline.

Every sports in the world changes rules. If you want to be a modern sport you must always evolve with the times. If not the games become stagnate and people turn away in large numbers. Its already happening."
Even though I do think you're right about a drop off in interest impacting attendance figures the stats you're giving is a bit flawed. The games you're referencing to of 15 to 20 years ago were knockout games and so a supporter of those teams were more likely to go to the match as it could of been their last match of the year and even if they won there would be 3 weeks or so to the next game. This years super 8's you had 3 games in 4 weeks and I know a lot of Donegal supporters who usually go to games in Croke Park who didn't this year because they had the option of going to Hyde park and Ballybofey in the games after and wanted to save money.

The two major reasons for dropping attendance IMO are Dublin's dominance as it's very difficult for neutrals to get excited in any of their games as no team apart from Mayo have come close to beating them in recent times and the second reason is the flawed championship structure. Very hard for supporters to travel to games when they know they're looking at a hammering.

There also seems to be huge focus on rule changes when there is a poor game and good games tend to be ignored by most of the media. You never hear calls for rule changes during the league when teams of similar quality play each other week in week out. I'm not against making adjustments to the rules of the game but they can't be drastic changes. Other sports have made changes as you say but it's usually done in a very careful way not in a knee jerk reaction way this has been done so far.

Mobot (Donegal) - Posts: 355 - 05/12/2018 13:00:56    2153382

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Replying To downtothecore:  "Because it has evolved into a game that is too defensive, too much hand passing and not enough goals scored. I am happy that our assoiciation are trying to do something about this with aim of trying to give us something that is more exciting...."
So putting a limit on hand passes which restrict the team attacking will help increase the number of goals scored? You do realise that there is now more scores in Gaa football than there ever has been with scoring averages increasing every year since 2011!! GAA coaches have copied others sports in making their team strong defensively but top coaches and teams know they need to score 20 points plus a game to win the big matches, This wasn't always the case.

Mobot (Donegal) - Posts: 355 - 05/12/2018 13:07:00    2153383

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Replying To Mobot:  "Even though I do think you're right about a drop off in interest impacting attendance figures the stats you're giving is a bit flawed. The games you're referencing to of 15 to 20 years ago were knockout games and so a supporter of those teams were more likely to go to the match as it could of been their last match of the year and even if they won there would be 3 weeks or so to the next game. This years super 8's you had 3 games in 4 weeks and I know a lot of Donegal supporters who usually go to games in Croke Park who didn't this year because they had the option of going to Hyde park and Ballybofey in the games after and wanted to save money.

The two major reasons for dropping attendance IMO are Dublin's dominance as it's very difficult for neutrals to get excited in any of their games as no team apart from Mayo have come close to beating them in recent times and the second reason is the flawed championship structure. Very hard for supporters to travel to games when they know they're looking at a hammering.

There also seems to be huge focus on rule changes when there is a poor game and good games tend to be ignored by most of the media. You never hear calls for rule changes during the league when teams of similar quality play each other week in week out. I'm not against making adjustments to the rules of the game but they can't be drastic changes. Other sports have made changes as you say but it's usually done in a very careful way not in a knee jerk reaction way this has been done so far."
I did mention 2002 was an out and out quater final to super 8 games this year. But still 60000 drop is some serious drop. As u said Dublins dominance doesnt help as 4 to 5 teams or more could have won Sam in 2002. But still 60000 is a massive decrease. Neutrals used to go to matchs more back then. I remeber been at both those days of football in 2002 Kerry v Galway and Armagh v Sligo on one day and Dublin v Donegal and Cork v Mayo next day of games. I would have found been less motivated to go to kerry v Galway and Dublin v Donegal this year. You were going to see Donnellan Joyce Fallon Cooper Moyihan T O Se Marc O Se Ciaran Whelan Alan Brogan Kieran McGeeney Stephen McDonnell Osin MConville Anthony Lynch Graham Canty Ciaran McDonald and many more play. In those quater finals you had the greatest team west of Shannon in last 50 years eg Galway ( 98 01) , greatest Armagh team ever (02) , one of the greatest kerry teams ever ( 00 04 06 07 09 ) , a very good Dublin team ( won Dublins first leinster in 7 years ) , a very good Cork team ( which would soon reach 6 All Ireland semi finals in a row and win a few Munster titles) , players on a Sligo team that would soon one of the greatest if not greatest sligo team ever ( Sligo drew with All Ireland champions Armagh in quater final ) and players that soon make up a very good Mayo team ( which would reach 2 All Ireland finals in 04 and 06) and very good Donegal team which in any other era would have won Ulster titles only that you had two great teams in Ulster at the time eg Tyrone 03 05 08 and Armagh 02.

You went to see very good teams play very good football. Kerry v Galway game was a very good game with Michael Donnellan scoring a wonder goal compared to the awful game this year between both counties. Also Dublin v Donegal in 2002 was a cracking game of football compared to this years game. It was such a good contest 80000 people turned up for the replay in 2002. Armagh and Sligo also was very good game of football. And the replay in Navan were over 20000 turned up also was a very exciting game of football. And Cork and Mayo also was a very good game of football. You were getting ur Moneys worth back in 2002. Exciting game with good open flowing football were brillant footballers like Donnellan Joyce T O Se Cooper McDonnell Ciaran McDonald were displaying great skills. You could see why 60000 more people wud attend in 2002 compared to last years games.

Armagh and kerry played a lovely kicking game of football. Armagh wud play a brillant diagonal ball into McDonnell and Clarke. Kerry in 2002 under Paudi played some cracking swashbuckling football really entertaining to watch. Dublin also played some brillant open football in 2002. While Sligo were a sight to behold with All Blacks playing with no fear and nearly beating All Ireland champions. Watching Cooper or Michael Donnellan or Ciaran McDonald play in games with great skill were football was entertaining and open compared to some of slow ponderous hand passing sluggish football we saw this year. The difference in the football we saw with kerry v Galway and Dublin v Donegal in 2002 compared to 2018 was massive. Dublin team 2018 is worth watching if ur a neutral. In 2002 Dublin kerry Galway Armagh Sligo Donegal Cork Mayo and soon Tyrone Laois and Westmeath were all worth watching.

The following 2 season you had titanic All Ireland finals semi finals and Ulster finals all in a near sell out Croke Park between Tyrone and Armagh. A cracking semi final between Mayo v Dublin in 05. And Kerry v Tyrone clashs in 03 and 05 that wud become legendary. And Westmesth and laois beating Dublin both in leinster playing attacking exciting football and both winning leinster in great leinster finals. Exciting times, exciting games. Good football with great teams and some of the greatest players ever. Compare that to today. Take out Dublin whats left. Thats why 60000 people less are attending games. Thats the reason.

Think of this way between 2002 and 2005 you were watching teams like greatest Tyrone Armagh teams ever . The greatest team west of Shannon in last 50 years, one of greatest Kerry teams ever , greatest Westmeath team ever , greatest laois team of last 60 or 70 years and also very good Dublin Donegal Cork Mayo Sligo Wexford Fermanagh ( Best Fermanagh and Wexford team in 60 years ) while Meath kildare Derry were all decent also. But some cracking football. Remeber laois under Dwyer playing exciting attacking football between 03 and 05. Long scores from 30 or 40 metres out with excellent footballer like Beano McDonald. Ciaran McDonalds wonder point v Dublin in mid 00s. Or Peter Cavanan great goal v kerry in 2005 final. Very competitive time for football with so many great players eg McGeeney P Cavanan T O Se Cooper Joyce McDonald S Cavanagh. But also some brillant exciting football. Much less of the hand passing back and forth we see now. All reasons why 60000 less at quater final stage in 2002 or why 80000 turned up for Ulster final in Croke Park in 2005 . All reasons why.

Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 551 - 05/12/2018 15:01:29    2153401

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Lads, catch yourselves on! We are sick of watching handpass after handpass after handpass. Leaving this as it is not an option. These changes are not perfect but like all changes they will need time to see how they go.

downtothecore (Down) - Posts: 223 - 05/12/2018 15:03:20    2153402

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Take leinster championship between 1997 and 2004 and compare it to this decade. You had 5 counties winning leinster in 8 years. But the games of football were very good and high standard were open direct football was being played in front of massive crowds.

Eg
1997 Leinster championship
Q final Meath v Dublin Excellent game of football. Meath went 9 up playing really well, best first half display by Meath team v Dublin ever. Dublin comeback in second half and lose by missing last peno
Semi final 3 Games Meath v kildare. First game was very good. But second game was considered by many such as Pat Spillane as one best games ever played in Croke Park
Final Meath v Offaly
Offaly won a brillant leinster final playing outstanding football , with direct balls into Claffey Brady and Malone forward line.

1998 leinster championship
kildare v Dublin draw and replay two exciting games in early rounds
Final Kildare V Meath. Very tense exciting game were kildare end 40 plus end for leinster

2000 Kildare v Dublin leinster final. Dublin went 7 ahead with some best scores I have ever seen from Dublin in first half. In second half one best leinster final xomebacks ever by kildare in a leinster final. A great leinster final.

2001 Meath v Dublin leinster final. Near 70000 saw an exciting game of football were Giles Geraghty and Murphy were to much for Dubs

2002 Dublin played some great football throughput 2002 leinster championship

2003 leinster championship
Laois v Dublin leinster semi or quater final. Laois beat Dublin with excellent attacking football
Laois v kildare leinster final. Excellent final. Laois gave an exhibition of long point scoring in the game.

2004 leinater Championship
Dublin v Westmeath. Paudis Westmeath beat Dublin in a brillant game of football where Westmeath were excellent
Laois v Westmeath Final. Two games both exciting ending in Westmeath winning only leinster title.

And that was just a few years in leinster were massive crowds were watching attacking entertaining football. In the other proviences there was also cracking football at the time. Crowds peaked in 00s. When you had entertaining open competitive games of football. They are decreasing in recent times.

Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 551 - 05/12/2018 15:32:11    2153407

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Replying To Furlong1949:  "I did mention 2002 was an out and out quater final to super 8 games this year. But still 60000 drop is some serious drop. As u said Dublins dominance doesnt help as 4 to 5 teams or more could have won Sam in 2002. But still 60000 is a massive decrease. Neutrals used to go to matchs more back then. I remeber been at both those days of football in 2002 Kerry v Galway and Armagh v Sligo on one day and Dublin v Donegal and Cork v Mayo next day of games. I would have found been less motivated to go to kerry v Galway and Dublin v Donegal this year. You were going to see Donnellan Joyce Fallon Cooper Moyihan T O Se Marc O Se Ciaran Whelan Alan Brogan Kieran McGeeney Stephen McDonnell Osin MConville Anthony Lynch Graham Canty Ciaran McDonald and many more play. In those quater finals you had the greatest team west of Shannon in last 50 years eg Galway ( 98 01) , greatest Armagh team ever (02) , one of the greatest kerry teams ever ( 00 04 06 07 09 ) , a very good Dublin team ( won Dublins first leinster in 7 years ) , a very good Cork team ( which would soon reach 6 All Ireland semi finals in a row and win a few Munster titles) , players on a Sligo team that would soon one of the greatest if not greatest sligo team ever ( Sligo drew with All Ireland champions Armagh in quater final ) and players that soon make up a very good Mayo team ( which would reach 2 All Ireland finals in 04 and 06) and very good Donegal team which in any other era would have won Ulster titles only that you had two great teams in Ulster at the time eg Tyrone 03 05 08 and Armagh 02.

You went to see very good teams play very good football. Kerry v Galway game was a very good game with Michael Donnellan scoring a wonder goal compared to the awful game this year between both counties. Also Dublin v Donegal in 2002 was a cracking game of football compared to this years game. It was such a good contest 80000 people turned up for the replay in 2002. Armagh and Sligo also was very good game of football. And the replay in Navan were over 20000 turned up also was a very exciting game of football. And Cork and Mayo also was a very good game of football. You were getting ur Moneys worth back in 2002. Exciting game with good open flowing football were brillant footballers like Donnellan Joyce T O Se Cooper McDonnell Ciaran McDonald were displaying great skills. You could see why 60000 more people wud attend in 2002 compared to last years games.

Armagh and kerry played a lovely kicking game of football. Armagh wud play a brillant diagonal ball into McDonnell and Clarke. Kerry in 2002 under Paudi played some cracking swashbuckling football really entertaining to watch. Dublin also played some brillant open football in 2002. While Sligo were a sight to behold with All Blacks playing with no fear and nearly beating All Ireland champions. Watching Cooper or Michael Donnellan or Ciaran McDonald play in games with great skill were football was entertaining and open compared to some of slow ponderous hand passing sluggish football we saw this year. The difference in the football we saw with kerry v Galway and Dublin v Donegal in 2002 compared to 2018 was massive. Dublin team 2018 is worth watching if ur a neutral. In 2002 Dublin kerry Galway Armagh Sligo Donegal Cork Mayo and soon Tyrone Laois and Westmeath were all worth watching.

The following 2 season you had titanic All Ireland finals semi finals and Ulster finals all in a near sell out Croke Park between Tyrone and Armagh. A cracking semi final between Mayo v Dublin in 05. And Kerry v Tyrone clashs in 03 and 05 that wud become legendary. And Westmesth and laois beating Dublin both in leinster playing attacking exciting football and both winning leinster in great leinster finals. Exciting times, exciting games. Good football with great teams and some of the greatest players ever. Compare that to today. Take out Dublin whats left. Thats why 60000 people less are attending games. Thats the reason.

Think of this way between 2002 and 2005 you were watching teams like greatest Tyrone Armagh teams ever . The greatest team west of Shannon in last 50 years, one of greatest Kerry teams ever , greatest Westmeath team ever , greatest laois team of last 60 or 70 years and also very good Dublin Donegal Cork Mayo Sligo Wexford Fermanagh ( Best Fermanagh and Wexford team in 60 years ) while Meath kildare Derry were all decent also. But some cracking football. Remeber laois under Dwyer playing exciting attacking football between 03 and 05. Long scores from 30 or 40 metres out with excellent footballer like Beano McDonald. Ciaran McDonalds wonder point v Dublin in mid 00s. Or Peter Cavanan great goal v kerry in 2005 final. Very competitive time for football with so many great players eg McGeeney P Cavanan T O Se Cooper Joyce McDonald S Cavanagh. But also some brillant exciting football. Much less of the hand passing back and forth we see now. All reasons why 60000 less at quater final stage in 2002 or why 80000 turned up for Ulster final in Croke Park in 2005 . All reasons why."
You're talking about a golden era of football where you had contenders in each province never mind the All Ireland Series. Hurling is going through a similar phase now. There were a lot of great games played during those years because you had so many teams playing at a similar level. Tyrone won All Ireland's but were beaten by Donegal and Armagh in Ulster during the same period. The Leinster championship was as competitive as it's ever been with 4 or 5 different winners during a 5 year period. As you mentioned you had Sligo, Galway and Mayo going well in Connacht and I think Roscommon won a provincial title in the early 00's as well.

Neutrals go to games when they expect a good close game not when they know or are pretty sure of the result prior to throw in and that's where we're at now. There are still as many top quality individual players playing the game now as has been before but teams need to collectively get to Dublin's level.. I do concede that defensive systems have lessened the impact of some of these players but you have more scorers in a team now than you ever had before. Teams used to rely on 3/4 players to get 80% of their scores but now teams need at least 7 or 8 different scorers in a game to win matches. Scoring is higher now that it was even during the golden era and teams have become way more efficient in attack. It's not all as doom and gloom as some people make out. We had great games between Kerry and Monaghan, Kildare and Galway, Roscommon and Armagh, New York and Leitrim, Laois and Wexford and other teams that are of a similar level this year. Of course there were poor ones too but we've always had poor games but Mayo have showed in recent years if you can get to Dublin's level then you get great games.

Don't get me wrong, I do understand the game has changed but that's because teams are no longer naive and as a result we no longer have proper one on one battles as much as we used to. There are parts of the game that are gone that we all miss but changing the rules will not bring back a game that was played in years gone by. A few minor rule changes to help the game evolve and encourage some risk taking in possession is what's needed not restricting what a team in possession can do with the ball. I would of personally trialed the attacking mark but restricted it to inside the 21 or 30 (not the 45) and I would have also had a 2 point scoring zone from scores kicked from 40m out to encourage teams to shoot from distance and take a risk which in turn would force defending teams to push up on the ball higher up the field and that should leave more space in the full forward line for balls to be kicked in.

Mobot (Donegal) - Posts: 355 - 05/12/2018 16:05:22    2153408

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It's true what the Armagh pundit said. The elephant in the room was never even looked at. That 'Elephant' is the amount of steps a guy is allowed take with the ball and the almost impossible task one player has in dispossessing him legitimately.
This coupled with the quiet frankly ludicrous advantage rule of allowing the fouled individual take as many steps as the ref allows even though this is in itself is breaking the 3 step rule. No other field sport in the world allows this. In rugby the advantage is stopped when there's a second rule broken by the attacking or fouled agaist team but no the GAA says.. your fouled go ahead and take as many steps as u want.

bloodyban (Limerick) - Posts: 762 - 05/12/2018 16:54:08    2153411

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Replying To Mobot:  "You're talking about a golden era of football where you had contenders in each province never mind the All Ireland Series. Hurling is going through a similar phase now. There were a lot of great games played during those years because you had so many teams playing at a similar level. Tyrone won All Ireland's but were beaten by Donegal and Armagh in Ulster during the same period. The Leinster championship was as competitive as it's ever been with 4 or 5 different winners during a 5 year period. As you mentioned you had Sligo, Galway and Mayo going well in Connacht and I think Roscommon won a provincial title in the early 00's as well.

Neutrals go to games when they expect a good close game not when they know or are pretty sure of the result prior to throw in and that's where we're at now. There are still as many top quality individual players playing the game now as has been before but teams need to collectively get to Dublin's level.. I do concede that defensive systems have lessened the impact of some of these players but you have more scorers in a team now than you ever had before. Teams used to rely on 3/4 players to get 80% of their scores but now teams need at least 7 or 8 different scorers in a game to win matches. Scoring is higher now that it was even during the golden era and teams have become way more efficient in attack. It's not all as doom and gloom as some people make out. We had great games between Kerry and Monaghan, Kildare and Galway, Roscommon and Armagh, New York and Leitrim, Laois and Wexford and other teams that are of a similar level this year. Of course there were poor ones too but we've always had poor games but Mayo have showed in recent years if you can get to Dublin's level then you get great games.

Don't get me wrong, I do understand the game has changed but that's because teams are no longer naive and as a result we no longer have proper one on one battles as much as we used to. There are parts of the game that are gone that we all miss but changing the rules will not bring back a game that was played in years gone by. A few minor rule changes to help the game evolve and encourage some risk taking in possession is what's needed not restricting what a team in possession can do with the ball. I would of personally trialed the attacking mark but restricted it to inside the 21 or 30 (not the 45) and I would have also had a 2 point scoring zone from scores kicked from 40m out to encourage teams to shoot from distance and take a risk which in turn would force defending teams to push up on the ball higher up the field and that should leave more space in the full forward line for balls to be kicked in."
The number of scores has gone up but has the quality of scoring. But now you see team hand passing the ball over and over again until they find a gap player breaks through and runs through and taps it over the bar. Back in the 00s I remeber brillant long range point scoring eg laois in the 2003 leinater final , kerry v Cork in 2002 All Ireland semi final. When you mention this golden era , you also say there was great games played, you had 8 different All Ireland winners in 90s and Ulster at times 3 All Ireland contenders meeting in first round games. Then you say there is as much individual talent now. Ok that makes little sense.

You had this golden era. You agree. You had great games and great teams. You agree. But you forgot to mention the great players. Did all those great players not make it a great era. Great players with great talent achieve things in sports they make things happen. Thats what happened in 90s and 00s. You had great players and great managers. To say there as much individual talent doesnt make sense if there was howcome there is only 1 All Ireland contender if there was as much individual talent now as then . Compare great players in Ulster in that era eg Cavanan O Neill McDonnell McGeeney Tohill McGuigan to now. There is a difference. Compare great players in many teams in leinster now to then eg Giles Geraghty Earley Ryan Claffey Curran Whelan . What about Connacht is there player in Connacht currently in the league of a Padraig Joyce or Michael Donnellan or Ciaran McDonald.

Look at international rules teams of 90s or 00s and now. Take out Dublin players now the international rules team looks weak enough compared to 90s team where you had forward line of Joyce Donnellan Fallon Giles Geraghty McConville McDonnell Cavanan O Neill McGuigan Beano McDonald D Dolan Deeveney C McDonald and that was just the forwards.

Look at centre forward in this era every all Ireland team had a great play maker centre forward. In this era Dublin have Ciaran Kilkenny and thats it. In the above era you Grey Blaney Trevor Giles larry Tompkins Martin McHugh Dermot McNichol Ciaran McDonald Ja Fallon Brian McGuigan and Declan Sullivan playing at centre forward, acting as a creative centre forward opening up teams with brillant creativity. Where have all Ciaran McDonald and Greg Blaneys gone.

What about defenders. The blanket defence has destroyed the art of defending. Take out Dublin great defenders and Mayo defenders there is serious lack of great defenders. look.at mid 90s to mid 00s look at these great defenders eg Seamus Moyihan Tom Sullivan Mike McCarthy T O Se M O Se Aidan Mahoney Stephen Brien Graham Canty Tony Davis Anthony Lynch Tomas Mannion Sean Og De Paor K Mortimer James Nallen Tony Scullion Sean Marty Lochard Henry Downey Dj Kane Robbie O Malley Darren Fay Martin O Connell Mark O Reilly Glen Ryan Anthony Rainbow Davy Dalton Kieth Barr Eamon Heery Paddy Christie Paul Curran Kieran McGeeney Ryan McMemanin Jordan Harte Conor Gormley Conor McMemanin . Thats a serious list of defenders. The level of individual defending has disimproved.

Yes we have had some good games recently. The Mayo v Dublin games were great games. But back then you had legendary games that where some counties greatest performances ever.

Again lets looks at some of those game in late 90s and early 00s.

1997 Meath v kildare second game. Michael Muiritigh and Pat Spillane said it one of the greatest games ever in Croker
1997 Leinster final Meath v Offaly a brillant leinster final with great scores. Offalys best performance in championship in 35 years.
1998 Leinster final Meath v kildare. Another excellent game of football
1998 kildare v Galway final. Another great game. Very entertaining game of excellent football. Donnellan and Joyce gave an exhibition of football in second half
2000 Dublin v kildare Leinster final. First half best 35 mins by Dublin in years. Second half best performance by kildare in leinster final in decades
2000 2 All Ireland semi final between kerry v Armagh . Two great games with great players playing excellent football
2000 2 All Ireland football finals between kerry v Galway. Joyce Donnellan Moyihan Fitzgerald. Great players great direct football. Two of best finals in recent years
2001 Meath v Westmeath Dublin v kerry classic quater finals. Maurice Fitzgerald miracle point .
2002 Armagh v Sligo All Ireland quater finals. Kerry v Armagh final was another excellent game. Football kerry playing in 2002 and Dublin played in 2002 was attacking exciting excellent football. Football Meath and Galway played between 96 to 01 also was excellent attacking skilful football eg Giles Geraghty Fallon Joyce Donnellan
2003 2005 2008 3 legendary games Kerry v Tyrone. Finals in 05 and 08 are all time great finals.
2003 Laois win leinster final with best long point scoring best seen in leinster final in years.
2004 Westmeath beat Laois in historic final also two excellent finals.
I have let out so many other great games eg kerry v Galway in a classic game in the rain in Croker. Meath v kildare in 2003 great game in Croker. Mayo v Galway in 99 Connacht final. Ciaran McDonald arrives on national scene.So many great games with great players and great skill. You continue to ignore all the great players great games where brillant football was played.

You say that there is as much individual talent now. Well the best thing I can do is just list the facts list great players from mid 90s to mid 00s and if you think there is as much individual talent please show me.

Great players Padraig Joyce Michael Donnellan Ja Falllon Sean Og De Paor Ciaran McDonald James Nallen Liam McHale K Mortimer Eamon O Hara Graham Canty Larry Tompkins Tony Davis Colin Corkery D O Se T O Se M O Se Seamus Moyihan Tom.Sullivan Declan Sullivan Maurice Fitzgerald Colm Cooper Mike Frank Russell Dara Cinneade Trevor Giles Graham Geraghty Ollie Murphy Bernard Flynn Colm O Rourke John McDermont Darren Fay Robbie O Malley Martin O Connell Glen Ryan Anthony Rainbow Dermot Earley Niall Buckley Johnny Doyle Beano McDonald Dessie Dolan Seamus O Hanlon Stefan White Ciaran McManus Vinny Claffey Kieth Barr Eamon Heeery Paul Curran Eamon Heery Alan Brogan Stephen Cluxton Paddy Christie Ciaran Whelan Charlie Redmond Dessie Farrell Tony Scullion Sean Marty lochard Henry Downey Dermot McNichol Anthony Tohill Ryan McMemanin Philip Jordan Conor Gormley Conor McMenanin Sean Cavangh Peter Cavanan Stephen O Neill Brian McGuigan Mulligan Kieran McGeeney Paul McGrane Oisin McConville Diarmaid Marsden Stephen Mc Donnell Brenden Deeveny Aidan Sweeney Mattie Forde Declan Browne and many many more. Great players with great skill who showed greatness winning titles and accolades.

Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 551 - 05/12/2018 20:18:10    2153443

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Lets compare teams now to teams in back in 90s and 00s.

Let compare great teams in last ten years to teams in early 90s to early 00s.
This era 2010 to 2019
1 Dublin The greatest Dublin team.ever, second greatest team ever and could become greatest team ever eg 11 13 15 16 17 18
2 Donegal The greatest or second greatest Donegal team ever eg 14
3 The greatest Monaghan team of last 30 years eg 13
4 Mayo The greatest Team not to win an All Ireland. eg 13 16 17

Now this is from Early 1990s to early 00s
1 The Greatest Cork team ever eg 89 90
2 The Greatest Derry team ever eg 92
3 The greatest or Second greatest Donegal team ever
4 The greatest Down team of last 50 years eg 91 94
5 One greatest Meath teams ever eg 96 99
6 The greatest Clare team ever eg 92
7 The greatest Leitrim team of last 90 years eg 93
8 The greatest Galway team and Connacht team of last 50 years eg 98 01
9 The greatest Tyrone team ever eg 03
10 The greatest Armagh team ever eg 02
11 The greatest Westmeath team.ever eg 04
12 The greatest Laois team of last 60 years eg 03
13 The greatest kildare team of last 90 years eg 98 00
14 One of the greatest kerry teams ever wg 97 00 04
15 The greatest Offaly team of last 35 years eg 97
16 The greatest Cavan team of last 50 years eg 97

You also had very strong teams from Mayo Roscommon Sligo Fermanagh Louth Wexford .

Great players all.time great players played on those teams eg
Maurice Fitzgerald Colm Cooper eg Two greatest forwards of all time, two of kerrys greatest forwards ever
T O Se M O Se Two greatest defenders of last 40 years Two of kerrys greatest players ever
D O Se One of greatest midfielders kerry ever produced and one greatest midfielders of last 40 year
Larry Tompkins One of kildare and Corks greatest footballers ever eg in the top 2 or 3 greatest Cork or kildare players ever
Padraig Joyce Michael Donnellan Two greatest Galway footballers of last 50 years , two of greatest Galway players ever and two greatest footballers along with Dermot Earley snr and Ciaran McDonald to come from.Connacht in last 50 years.
Ciaran McDonald The most talented most loved and possible greatest Mayo footballer of last 40 or 50 years
Sean Cavangh One of best midfielders of last 30 years a modern day Jack O Se
Peter Cavanan The greatest Tyrone footballer ever and along with Sean O Neill the greatest forward from.Ulster in last 50 years
Anthony Tohill In top 2 or 3 greatest Derry players ever
Mickey Linden Greatest Down footballer of last 50 years
Martin McHugh In top 2 or 3 greatest Donegal players ever
Glen Ryan In top 2 or 3 greatest kildare players ever
Trevor Giles Colm O Rourke Two greatest players ever to play for Meath
Kieran McGeeney One of greatest Armagh player ever

I could go on and on talking about the great players of that era.

Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 551 - 05/12/2018 22:33:09    2153455

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Just to clarify, what is an "era" and who decides when it begins and starts.

Seems like above comparison is 20 years Vs 7 years and particularly 2018, to be honest.

I'll state the obvious shall I thereare significantly more games now, both in qualifiers and quater finals.

People talk about attendances being down, perhaps they are at things like the Leinster final and a quater final every week, but I would suggest more people are attending football matches at those increased number of games accumulativey then historically.

I would be very confident that attendances at league and championship games accumalitvely now, would dwarf anything historically.

So I'd make the attendances May be down but more people are attending football games.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 1893 - 05/12/2018 23:33:54    2153457

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Well you went the full furlong there..what exactly is your point...10 words only :)

ponger (Cavan) - Posts: 397 - 06/12/2018 02:00:11    2153460

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Replying To Furlong1949:  "Lets compare teams now to teams in back in 90s and 00s.

Let compare great teams in last ten years to teams in early 90s to early 00s.
This era 2010 to 2019
1 Dublin The greatest Dublin team.ever, second greatest team ever and could become greatest team ever eg 11 13 15 16 17 18
2 Donegal The greatest or second greatest Donegal team ever eg 14
3 The greatest Monaghan team of last 30 years eg 13
4 Mayo The greatest Team not to win an All Ireland. eg 13 16 17

Now this is from Early 1990s to early 00s
1 The Greatest Cork team ever eg 89 90
2 The Greatest Derry team ever eg 92
3 The greatest or Second greatest Donegal team ever
4 The greatest Down team of last 50 years eg 91 94
5 One greatest Meath teams ever eg 96 99
6 The greatest Clare team ever eg 92
7 The greatest Leitrim team of last 90 years eg 93
8 The greatest Galway team and Connacht team of last 50 years eg 98 01
9 The greatest Tyrone team ever eg 03
10 The greatest Armagh team ever eg 02
11 The greatest Westmeath team.ever eg 04
12 The greatest Laois team of last 60 years eg 03
13 The greatest kildare team of last 90 years eg 98 00
14 One of the greatest kerry teams ever wg 97 00 04
15 The greatest Offaly team of last 35 years eg 97
16 The greatest Cavan team of last 50 years eg 97

You also had very strong teams from Mayo Roscommon Sligo Fermanagh Louth Wexford .

Great players all.time great players played on those teams eg
Maurice Fitzgerald Colm Cooper eg Two greatest forwards of all time, two of kerrys greatest forwards ever
T O Se M O Se Two greatest defenders of last 40 years Two of kerrys greatest players ever
D O Se One of greatest midfielders kerry ever produced and one greatest midfielders of last 40 year
Larry Tompkins One of kildare and Corks greatest footballers ever eg in the top 2 or 3 greatest Cork or kildare players ever
Padraig Joyce Michael Donnellan Two greatest Galway footballers of last 50 years , two of greatest Galway players ever and two greatest footballers along with Dermot Earley snr and Ciaran McDonald to come from.Connacht in last 50 years.
Ciaran McDonald The most talented most loved and possible greatest Mayo footballer of last 40 or 50 years
Sean Cavangh One of best midfielders of last 30 years a modern day Jack O Se
Peter Cavanan The greatest Tyrone footballer ever and along with Sean O Neill the greatest forward from.Ulster in last 50 years
Anthony Tohill In top 2 or 3 greatest Derry players ever
Mickey Linden Greatest Down footballer of last 50 years
Martin McHugh In top 2 or 3 greatest Donegal players ever
Glen Ryan In top 2 or 3 greatest kildare players ever
Trevor Giles Colm O Rourke Two greatest players ever to play for Meath
Kieran McGeeney One of greatest Armagh player ever

I could go on and on talking about the great players of that era."
How does this prove or disprove that the rules need to be changed?

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2167 - 06/12/2018 07:13:31    2153461

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Furlong, I think you have actually strengthened my original point on one of the reasons attendances have dropped. Games were competitive in the 90's and 00's because you had so many teams at a similar level and today Dublin (The greatest team ever to play the game) have taken the game to a level never seen before and teams outside of Mayo have struggled to get to that level. Games in the 90's were straight knockout and when the back door was first introduced teams that rarely got to play in Croke Park made it more often and there was a novelty to that in the 00's which has worn off now. Look at the 2014 all ireland semi final between Dublin and Donegal (Croke Park was a sell out) people were excited by the prospect of this game even though the 2011 fixture was one of the poorest spectacles ever seen in football history as it was built up to be the great attack v the great defence and the game did not disappoint. The first 20 minutes from Dublin still remains the best football I've ever seen played. People say that the 2011 game between the two changed the landscape of football but for me it was the game in 2014 because Jim Gavin is a great coach and learned a lot of lessons in that game with the main one being that they will not take risks unless it's a last resort. And if we get back to the whole point of the thread we need to encourage more risk taking by giving a the attacking side more options in possession not less.

In respect of the list of players you listed off from years gone by of course they were great players and are legends of the game but you could argue with they all be able to have as much impact now? Also, are you telling me that players like Brian Fenton, James McCarthy, Bernard and Alan Brogan, Diarmuid Connolly, Colm Cooper, Paul Geaney, David Moran, Sean and Colm Cavanagh, Karl Lacey, Michael Murphy, Frank McGlynn, Ryan McHugh, Damien Comer, Shane Walsh, Ian Burke, Keith Higgins, Aidan O'Shea, Andy Moran, Gary Brennan, Jamie Clarke, Gearoid McKiernan, Daniel Flynn, Conor McManus, Neil McGee, Cian O'Sullivan, Philly McMahon, Lee Keegan, Donal Keogan, Colm Boyle, Aidan O'Mahony, Brendan Murphy, Paul Broderick, Mark Lynch and plenty of others from recent times wouldn't of been stars of the game 20 years ago?? Not to mention the likes of Stephen Cluxton and Rory Beggan who have brought the art of goalkeeping to a ridiculous new level never seen before.

The big gap for me is detail and level of coaching. The game is way more tactical than it was and because of this we sometimes don't see the individual talent of our current top stars as they are double or trebled marked nowadays. I do think the game will become more appealing in years to come when other coaches can come up with a better ideas to close the gap on this great Dublin team. It is also a time for a tiered championship because it must be hard for D3 and D4 teams playing D1 teams in championship knowing that it's a limiting the damage exercise.

Mobot (Donegal) - Posts: 355 - 06/12/2018 10:44:10    2153477

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Replying To Mobot:  "Furlong, I think you have actually strengthened my original point on one of the reasons attendances have dropped. Games were competitive in the 90's and 00's because you had so many teams at a similar level and today Dublin (The greatest team ever to play the game) have taken the game to a level never seen before and teams outside of Mayo have struggled to get to that level. Games in the 90's were straight knockout and when the back door was first introduced teams that rarely got to play in Croke Park made it more often and there was a novelty to that in the 00's which has worn off now. Look at the 2014 all ireland semi final between Dublin and Donegal (Croke Park was a sell out) people were excited by the prospect of this game even though the 2011 fixture was one of the poorest spectacles ever seen in football history as it was built up to be the great attack v the great defence and the game did not disappoint. The first 20 minutes from Dublin still remains the best football I've ever seen played. People say that the 2011 game between the two changed the landscape of football but for me it was the game in 2014 because Jim Gavin is a great coach and learned a lot of lessons in that game with the main one being that they will not take risks unless it's a last resort. And if we get back to the whole point of the thread we need to encourage more risk taking by giving a the attacking side more options in possession not less.

In respect of the list of players you listed off from years gone by of course they were great players and are legends of the game but you could argue with they all be able to have as much impact now? Also, are you telling me that players like Brian Fenton, James McCarthy, Bernard and Alan Brogan, Diarmuid Connolly, Colm Cooper, Paul Geaney, David Moran, Sean and Colm Cavanagh, Karl Lacey, Michael Murphy, Frank McGlynn, Ryan McHugh, Damien Comer, Shane Walsh, Ian Burke, Keith Higgins, Aidan O'Shea, Andy Moran, Gary Brennan, Jamie Clarke, Gearoid McKiernan, Daniel Flynn, Conor McManus, Neil McGee, Cian O'Sullivan, Philly McMahon, Lee Keegan, Donal Keogan, Colm Boyle, Aidan O'Mahony, Brendan Murphy, Paul Broderick, Mark Lynch and plenty of others from recent times wouldn't of been stars of the game 20 years ago?? Not to mention the likes of Stephen Cluxton and Rory Beggan who have brought the art of goalkeeping to a ridiculous new level never seen before.

The big gap for me is detail and level of coaching. The game is way more tactical than it was and because of this we sometimes don't see the individual talent of our current top stars as they are double or trebled marked nowadays. I do think the game will become more appealing in years to come when other coaches can come up with a better ideas to close the gap on this great Dublin team. It is also a time for a tiered championship because it must be hard for D3 and D4 teams playing D1 teams in championship knowing that it's a limiting the damage exercise."
Great post.

Agree with it all.

One point regarding the tiered championship. I think a better solution would be to play league and Championship roughly in parallel.

Maybe run the championship piece straight knockout again or a with a short 2 game Provincial group section.

2 groups of 3 in Munster/Connacht, 3 groups of 3 in Ulster, some sort of group stage in Leinster.

After league and Provincials there's entry back into the All Ireland for the Non Provincial champion team with the best league record to play a Preliminary quarterfinal game with the Provincial champion with the worst league record.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2167 - 06/12/2018 11:35:50    2153482

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Just to clarify, what is an "era" and who decides when it begins and starts.

Seems like above comparison is 20 years Vs 7 years and particularly 2018, to be honest.

I'll state the obvious shall I thereare significantly more games now, both in qualifiers and quater finals.

People talk about attendances being down, perhaps they are at things like the Leinster final and a quater final every week, but I would suggest more people are attending football matches at those increased number of games accumulativey then historically.

I would be very confident that attendances at league and championship games accumalitvely now, would dwarf anything historically.

So I'd make the attendances May be down but more people are attending football games."
Excellent point here about overall attendance. League and even pre season comps get far bigger crowds now, and so many championship games.

The league is very popular.. but seems now they are going to make it a mikey mouse competition with experimental rules. Surely these rules should have to go through a more detailed testing and review process before being put into the second most popular competition in the country. Use 1) pre season comps 2) collect football 3) in house test games this year then do a full review before making changes to the competitions which matter to players

himachechy (Donegal) - Posts: 164 - 06/12/2018 11:41:58    2153483

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Just to clarify, what is an "era" and who decides when it begins and starts.

Seems like above comparison is 20 years Vs 7 years and particularly 2018, to be honest.

I'll state the obvious shall I thereare significantly more games now, both in qualifiers and quater finals.

People talk about attendances being down, perhaps they are at things like the Leinster final and a quater final every week, but I would suggest more people are attending football matches at those increased number of games accumulativey then historically.

I would be very confident that attendances at league and championship games accumalitvely now, would dwarf anything historically.

So I'd make the attendances May be down but more people are attending football games."
Attendances have dropped. Thats a fact. Attendances peaked in the 00s. Thats a fact. The reason the GAA brought in Super 8 was extra games to push up the revenue. The attendances are dropping every year. They brought in Super 8 more games to push up attendances , for more revenue. Attendances have dropped. Thats a fact. If you dont believe facts. Well. What can more can I say.

An era in sport is easily defined. The 60s , the 70s, the 80s , the 90s , the 00s. Every sports look at teams of decade. Who was the team of sixties. Great debate at the time was it Galway or Down. When people talk about 70s its all about kerry and Dublin. When people talk about 90s they talk about Ulster teams. Who was the team of the 00s was it kerry or Tyrone. Another great football debate. 10 years is a good size for an era. In life in politics in sport people particularly sport era can be defined in decades. Who was the team of thr 60s who was the team of the 00s is a debate talked in pubs forums tv studios newspaper articles for years etc. When RTE sport had its series greatest moments in Irish sport how did they divide the era and great moments. They had a series on 60s ( Arkle) a series on the 70s ( Munster 78 ) , a series on 80s ( Darbys goal ) , a series on 90s ( Italia 90 ) and series on 00s ( Grand Slam 09). I hope that makes sense.

Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 551 - 06/12/2018 14:14:06    2153500

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Replying To Whammo86:  "How does this prove or disprove that the rules need to be changed?"
If the thread goes off in another direction what harm is that. There are no rules or regulations againsts talking about other things then what the original thread was about. Is there any harm in that.

Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 551 - 06/12/2018 14:15:49    2153502

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