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Why Are We Changing Our Game?!

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Replying To Furlong1949:  "The stats are from Irish Indo and BBC. I have been reading about attendances dropping in Irish Indo for years. Every year Irish Independent have an article about how attendances dropping for the current year they are talking about and how they fell below 1 million since 2010 and peaked in mid 00s. The player drain stats are from ESRI report released recently in laat few months.

These are stats for senior championship. If you want to look at stats urself type gaelic football attendances into google and you will find article by Martin Breheny in Irish Independent which has the attendance numbers and averages from 2000 to 2016. If you type gaelic football attendances bbc into google you will find article by BBC where BBC have done research on Ulster championship match attendances ."
Thanks Furlong,

It seems attendance figures in the championship have gone up since 2016, there was a 24% increase in those attending All Ireland Championship games in 2017, even allowing for replays in 2016, that Brehenys figures didn't take into account. I havent seen any fihures for 2018 yet, but you would have to have caveats there with the new format.

Heres my source: https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaa-report-increase-in-attendances-and-gate-receipts-1.3375729

I think looking at a wider eye at the figures you posted the drop of in attendance started in 2008 and has picked up again in 2017, it very much mirrors the economic circumstances and immigration in the country broadly in that period, perhaps there is a better broader economic argument to the decline in attendances austerity as opposed apathy.

24% in a big increase in those attending All Ireland championships between 16 and 17, it doesn't really fit with the general picture you are painting of attendances declining year on year.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 2509 - 07/12/2018 16:48:20    2153626

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Replying To Furlong1949:  "Regards league attendances I dont know. I cannot see a massive surge in league attendances recently. But I am not certain. I dont know any real.stats.

The Dubs have moved to Croker since 2010 2011 so Dubs attendances must have increased. And Donegal Monaghan and Mayos attendances would be high. But there is allot of football strongholds having their worst period in generations so there numbers wouldnt be great. Meath ( div 2 , 1 year in div 3 ) , kildare ( 3 relegations , 1 year in div 3 ) , Armagh ( 3 last 4 years in div 3 ) , Cork ( div 2 ) , Laois ( Div 4 ) , Down ( Div 3 ) , Derry ( Div 4 ) , Galway ( most of decade in div 2 ). All those counties wouldn't have had massive league attendances . So many strong counties have had their worst period in generations. And where stronger in 00s. Take Armagh. Armagh has strong football fan base. They won Sam , loads of Ulsters and league div 1 title in 00s , in last 4 years 3 years in div 3 and haven't won a match in Ulster in 5 years. Attendances wouldnt be great at Atletic grounds.

I know myself numbers in Navan Newbridge have been declining. Kildare supporters where telling me there was more Mayo fans at Newbridge then kildare fans in the league this year. And from first hand experience travelling for games in Navan Newbridge Portloaise Mullingar Newry Armagh Sligo Enniskillen Wexford for matchs in this decade the numbers seem.to be down compared to attendances at these grounds when all these counties where doing well in 00s..We know traditionally and currently attendances in div 3 and div 4 can be low..And the hardcore fans go the league games.

Still the end of the league games when relegation and promotion are up for grabs bring decent crowds. And having div 2 and div 1 finals on same day which began in early part of this decade brings decents crowds with league finals hitting over 30000 mark. But the biggest league final attendance in last 20 years was Wexford v Armagh in 2005 when 47000 turned up for only 1 league final. While 36000 turned up this year to see 2 league finals between Dublin v Galway and Roscommon v Cavan.

But overall I not sure. I have no concrete stats. But I think a masive surge in league attendances in last while , I would have my doubts there has being."
Not sure thats true mate about the biggest League final in the last 30 years, Dublin and Kerry league final was a sell out in Croke Park in 2016, i was there. Not sure whether the following year was, i was there also (mores the pity).

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 2509 - 07/12/2018 16:55:59    2153628

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Thanks Furlong,

It seems attendance figures in the championship have gone up since 2016, there was a 24% increase in those attending All Ireland Championship games in 2017, even allowing for replays in 2016, that Brehenys figures didn't take into account. I havent seen any fihures for 2018 yet, but you would have to have caveats there with the new format.

Heres my source: https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaa-report-increase-in-attendances-and-gate-receipts-1.3375729

I think looking at a wider eye at the figures you posted the drop of in attendance started in 2008 and has picked up again in 2017, it very much mirrors the economic circumstances and immigration in the country broadly in that period, perhaps there is a better broader economic argument to the decline in attendances austerity as opposed apathy.

24% in a big increase in those attending All Ireland championships between 16 and 17, it doesn't really fit with the general picture you are painting of attendances declining year on year."
Thanks for posting link.
I didnt know stats for 2017. I didnt know the increase. I only knew stats til 2016. As I said Irish Indo were writing yearly since 2010 about the decline. I have read nothing from 2016 from them. The attendances did drop 11 years in a row from the high point of nearly 1.2 million in mid 00s. This years attendances dont look great with semi finals Ulster and leinster finals not great. But Super 8 extra games will lead to higher numbers. Yes the economic crash wud have effected the attendances. But 81000 attending Offaly v Dublin leinster final in 2006. 80000 attending Laois v Dublin in 2005 and around 41000 this year for same counties. Dublin didnt dip under 80000 for leinster final under Caffrey while now its 40000. Leinster is falling off a cliff. Ulster according to BBC is also declining.

Will agree to disagree. But personally I have never seen such apathy myself from.fans regards the game. There was always criticism. But usually it was towards one county eg Meath footballers Tyrone footballers Donegal footballers. Now its the whole game.

Also ESRI report showing a player drain is serious stuff also. 30% of players leaving a panel in a year. Irish indo did a survey following year and it also found the same. The question is has it peaked. Or will it worsen. If we start going up to 40% well then we have a full blown crisis. Counties losing 19 players like Derry or Cork 18 players or Meath 15 players the next year is not feasible. The game will go into crisis.

Ye about league I only had stats up to 2016. So Im 2 years behind everyone. Your right the kerry v Dublin league final in 2016 was a record 80000 beating the previous record set in 1964 when 70000 saw Dublin play Down in a league final. The league finals div 1 and div 2 on same day is a good idea and that has pushed up crowds. But attendances outside div 1 in div 2 3 and 4 in my experience havent being great. They never were great.

Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 815 - 07/12/2018 17:29:18    2153630

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Thanks Furlong,

It seems attendance figures in the championship have gone up since 2016, there was a 24% increase in those attending All Ireland Championship games in 2017, even allowing for replays in 2016, that Brehenys figures didn't take into account. I havent seen any fihures for 2018 yet, but you would have to have caveats there with the new format.

Heres my source: https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaa-report-increase-in-attendances-and-gate-receipts-1.3375729

I think looking at a wider eye at the figures you posted the drop of in attendance started in 2008 and has picked up again in 2017, it very much mirrors the economic circumstances and immigration in the country broadly in that period, perhaps there is a better broader economic argument to the decline in attendances austerity as opposed apathy.

24% in a big increase in those attending All Ireland championships between 16 and 17, it doesn't really fit with the general picture you are painting of attendances declining year on year."
Attendances were declining year on year. 11 years in a row attendances declined. 11 years in a row is not a blip , is not a 1 off , 11 years in a row declining attendances are a thread, are a pattern are a decade or more , a generation of declining attendances. 2017 saw an upturn what are chances if u take out extra super 8 games we have decline on last years numbers.


Lets look at the 2017 and 2018
Leinster final 2017 kildare v Dublin around 60000
leinster final 2018 laois v Dublin around 41000
Decline in leinster

Ulster Final 2017 Tyrone v Down 31912
Ulster Final 2018 Donegal v Fermanagh 28280
Average attendance for Ulster championship match in 2017 was 15581
Average attendance for Ulster championship match in 2018 was down to 12370
Decline in Ulster

Quater finals ( I know there is change with Super 8 but if we take quater finals 2017 with first matchs in Croker there is a decline )
Quater final 2017
Kerry v Galway/ Roscommon v Mayo 65746
Tyrone v Armagh/ Dublin v Monaghan 82000
Super 8 First Round Croker
Dublin v Donegal/Roscommon v Tyrone 53501
Kerry v Galway/Kildare v Monaghan 30740

I know it not like with like but still there was 43% decrease from last years quarter finals to the opening week of super 8.

All Ireland Semi final 2017 kerry v Mayo 66195 draw
All Ireland Semi final 2017 kerry v Mayo 53032
All Ireland semi final 2017 Dublin v Tyrone 82300
All Ireland semi final 2018 Dublin v Galway 54106
All Ireland semi final 2018 Tyrone v Monaghan 49496

This years semi finals were the worst attended this decade
This years semi final 2018 was Dublins lowest attendance for All-Ireland semi final in 23 years
This years semi finals were lowest since 2009
This years semi finals 2018 were 30% lower then 2017 semi finals
I think its first time ever the football attendances were less then hurling semi final attendances
This years is lowest attendance for Dublin semi final since 1993 when Clare played Dublin and 57793 attended the game. This was more or less capacity as Croke Park was being redeveloped at the time in 93.
So you probaly have to go back to 1985 for a comparable poor attendance for Dublin semi final when 40295 turned up for Mayo v Dublin semi final.

So with leinster finals and Ulster declining this year. A big drop in Ulster championship match this year. A big drop at All Ireland semi final stage , a drop.we have not seen for Dublin in two or three decades. We had extra replay at semi final.stage in 2017 . And with Mayo out earlier of the championship. Mayo have probaly biggest fanbase after Dublin. If you compare attendances for 2017 and this year 2018 leaving out extra super 8 games. It looks almost certain we can draw conclusion again this year attendances delined after upturn last year. So the thread of attendance declining continues . Only the super 8 matchs cover up the decline. Thats why the GAA introduced the super 8 games.

Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 815 - 07/12/2018 19:33:11    2153635

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Just to clarify a point.
Apologies for this I didnt explain one of the points well. I have a tendency to waffle as you will notice.

The point I was trying to make
The three lowest All Ireland semi finals for Dublin in pretty much 30 years are
2018 Dublin v Galway around 54000
1994 Dublin v Leitrim around 52000
1993 Dublin v Clare around 57000

However 1994 1993 attendances are not comparable. Because Leitrim of course smallest pop and novel pairing with leitrim and Clare. But the real issue was Croke Park was being redeveloped at the time. So in 1993 semi final was 52000 which actually was nearly full capacity, it was near sell out. Also 1994 there was more seats and 5700 was actually pretty much full capacity , a sell out. So while the attendances in 93 and 94 were historic low attendances. They were sell outs, full capacity. So they are not really comparable. The comparable semi final attendance is 1985 semi final when 40000 turned up to see Dublin and Mayo.

And this is significant because the early and mid 1980s is an awful period for gaa attendances. Football attendances bottomed out in early 80s mid 80s. GAA attendances were on a downward spiral. In 1982 All-Ireland semi final between Galway and Offaly 25000 turned up and for kerry v Armagh semi final in 1982 a shocking 17537 attended. And the most famous final of all.time 1982 final between Kerry and Offaly 62309 attended. Ten years earlier the same counties kerry and Offaly , 72000 attended 1972 All Ireland final. 1982 was a horror show of year. Around 30000 turned up for 1982 Dublin v Offaly leinster final. All Ireland semi final in 1982 attendances were 100% decline from 1979 All Ireland semi final attendances. So bad were the attendances that there was a calls at the time to play both semi finals on the same day.

Kerrys dominance was a disaster for attendance. Kerry team.at time was admired but kerry people didnt travel for semi finals and neutrals or other teams did attend because they knew kerry would win. 1979 All-Ireland semi final between kerry and Monaghan was kerry 5 -14 Monaghan 0-7. That was the usual score at the time.Kerry dominated, crowds decline. 10 or 12 years earlier record crowds were at All Ireland finals and semi finals. A county like Offaly with small population was involved in games in 60s when 90000 were attending games. In 1961 Offaly played Down in an All Ireland final and 90556 attended the game. 60s was a competitive time. You had strong Down and Cavan teams in Ulster. Strong Galway Mayo and Roscommon teams in Connacht. And strong Meath Dublin Offaly Longford and kildare teams in the east. Record crowds were attending. By 80s crowds were declining. When one team dominates like Kerry or Dublin it does impact on attendances. Thats not kerrys fault or Dublins fault. But it does effect attendances. For me though an apathy is pushing the current downward trends.

Meath and Dublin rivalry in late 80s early 90s kickstarted attendances again. Most GAA administraters at the time said 4 Meath v Dublin games in 1991 was the turning point for attendances. It was the first year of open draw. The first year of sponsors on jerseys. And nearly 250000 attended those 4 legendary games between Meath and Dublin. That is when attendances upturned and when modern gaa world as we know it begins.

The Ulster teams in early 90s kept the crowds coming.While Galway and kildare emerged in late 90s and also brought massive crowds.At the time 10 counties every year were in contention for Sam. 8 different counties won Sam in 90s.Then qualifiers came and gave another massive spike in crowds. Dwyer and Paudi at laois and Westmeath had an impact. In Paudis first game in charge of Westmeath ai think nearly 15000 turned up for a Byrne cup game v Meath. And Tyrone and Armagh were big crowd pullers at the time I think in a McKenna cup 20000 turned up to see Armagh and Tyrone in 00s.

So thats s brief summary of ups and downs of gaa attendances. Thats my last word on matter. I am.all out of attendance figures. I need a break from writing about attendances. Im sure many will happy to hear that and are sick of my talk about attendances in 1993 or 1983.

Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 815 - 07/12/2018 21:28:34    2153643

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Replying To Furlong1949:  "Just to clarify a point.
Apologies for this I didnt explain one of the points well. I have a tendency to waffle as you will notice.

The point I was trying to make
The three lowest All Ireland semi finals for Dublin in pretty much 30 years are
2018 Dublin v Galway around 54000
1994 Dublin v Leitrim around 52000
1993 Dublin v Clare around 57000

However 1994 1993 attendances are not comparable. Because Leitrim of course smallest pop and novel pairing with leitrim and Clare. But the real issue was Croke Park was being redeveloped at the time. So in 1993 semi final was 52000 which actually was nearly full capacity, it was near sell out. Also 1994 there was more seats and 5700 was actually pretty much full capacity , a sell out. So while the attendances in 93 and 94 were historic low attendances. They were sell outs, full capacity. So they are not really comparable. The comparable semi final attendance is 1985 semi final when 40000 turned up to see Dublin and Mayo.

And this is significant because the early and mid 1980s is an awful period for gaa attendances. Football attendances bottomed out in early 80s mid 80s. GAA attendances were on a downward spiral. In 1982 All-Ireland semi final between Galway and Offaly 25000 turned up and for kerry v Armagh semi final in 1982 a shocking 17537 attended. And the most famous final of all.time 1982 final between Kerry and Offaly 62309 attended. Ten years earlier the same counties kerry and Offaly , 72000 attended 1972 All Ireland final. 1982 was a horror show of year. Around 30000 turned up for 1982 Dublin v Offaly leinster final. All Ireland semi final in 1982 attendances were 100% decline from 1979 All Ireland semi final attendances. So bad were the attendances that there was a calls at the time to play both semi finals on the same day.

Kerrys dominance was a disaster for attendance. Kerry team.at time was admired but kerry people didnt travel for semi finals and neutrals or other teams did attend because they knew kerry would win. 1979 All-Ireland semi final between kerry and Monaghan was kerry 5 -14 Monaghan 0-7. That was the usual score at the time.Kerry dominated, crowds decline. 10 or 12 years earlier record crowds were at All Ireland finals and semi finals. A county like Offaly with small population was involved in games in 60s when 90000 were attending games. In 1961 Offaly played Down in an All Ireland final and 90556 attended the game. 60s was a competitive time. You had strong Down and Cavan teams in Ulster. Strong Galway Mayo and Roscommon teams in Connacht. And strong Meath Dublin Offaly Longford and kildare teams in the east. Record crowds were attending. By 80s crowds were declining. When one team dominates like Kerry or Dublin it does impact on attendances. Thats not kerrys fault or Dublins fault. But it does effect attendances. For me though an apathy is pushing the current downward trends.

Meath and Dublin rivalry in late 80s early 90s kickstarted attendances again. Most GAA administraters at the time said 4 Meath v Dublin games in 1991 was the turning point for attendances. It was the first year of open draw. The first year of sponsors on jerseys. And nearly 250000 attended those 4 legendary games between Meath and Dublin. That is when attendances upturned and when modern gaa world as we know it begins.

The Ulster teams in early 90s kept the crowds coming.While Galway and kildare emerged in late 90s and also brought massive crowds.At the time 10 counties every year were in contention for Sam. 8 different counties won Sam in 90s.Then qualifiers came and gave another massive spike in crowds. Dwyer and Paudi at laois and Westmeath had an impact. In Paudis first game in charge of Westmeath ai think nearly 15000 turned up for a Byrne cup game v Meath. And Tyrone and Armagh were big crowd pullers at the time I think in a McKenna cup 20000 turned up to see Armagh and Tyrone in 00s.

So thats s brief summary of ups and downs of gaa attendances. Thats my last word on matter. I am.all out of attendance figures. I need a break from writing about attendances. Im sure many will happy to hear that and are sick of my talk about attendances in 1993 or 1983."
Not that I want to praise a person from Meath. But that is one of the most well thought out, and explained posts I have seen on this site for years.
Fair play!

gormdubhgorm (Dublin) - Posts: 981 - 08/12/2018 02:24:20    2153651

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Replying To gormdubhgorm:  "Not that I want to praise a person from Meath. But that is one of the most well thought out, and explained posts I have seen on this site for years.
Fair play!"
Thanks gormdubhgorm. Your a gentleman.

Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 815 - 08/12/2018 15:44:25    2153678

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Not sure thats true mate about the biggest League final in the last 30 years, Dublin and Kerry league final was a sell out in Croke Park in 2016, i was there. Not sure whether the following year was, i was there also (mores the pity)."
2016 league final was on Easter Sunday to mark the 100th anniversary of the rising plus it was a double header with Tyrone and Cavan.

I'd say There wasn't 50,000 at the 2017 league final double header with Kildare and Galway.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 9132 - 08/12/2018 17:45:24    2153691

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "2016 league final was on Easter Sunday to mark the 100th anniversary of the rising plus it was a double header with Tyrone and Cavan.

I'd say There wasn't 50,000 at the 2017 league final double header with Kildare and Galway."
The attendance for 2017 league final double header between kerry and Dublin in Div 1 final , ( Galway were playing kildare in div 2 final ) the attendance was 53840.

Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 815 - 08/12/2018 19:43:29    2153694

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Replying To Furlong1949:  "The attendance for 2017 league final double header between kerry and Dublin in Div 1 final , ( Galway were playing kildare in div 2 final ) the attendance was 53840."
Ya I was thinking that it was around that furlong, that would be around a normal attendance for a league final double header it was only big in 2016 due to the 1916 commemoration .

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 9132 - 09/12/2018 10:07:54    2153713

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Anyone at the O Byrne Cup games at the weekend where the new rules were applied?

Be good to hear any feedback from anyone who went?

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 2509 - 10/12/2018 11:13:32    2153843

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Anyone at the O Byrne Cup games at the weekend where the new rules were applied?

Be good to hear any feedback from anyone who went?"
Carlow coach Steven Poacher talks about the new rules here. He is not a fan & I agree with him after seeing yesterdays game. The hand-pass rule slows the game down and will make the game much worse.

https://kclrfanzone.com/audio-steven-poacher-chats-obyrne-cup-and-rule-changes/

The Real 1944 (Carlow) - Posts: 1100 - 10/12/2018 23:00:18    2153941

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My opinion after watching it first hand is that we have just handed defensive minded teams an extra tool to stifle the opposition with, there was a lot of ball played around the midfield area now I'll qualify my comments and say Carlow only had 4 of their first team out so that probably didn't help the spectacle either but I predict when county's get up to full strength games with less than 20 scores will be the norm possibly considerably less, if you couple the new handpass rule with the tackle rule as it stands then you have serious defensive advantage, at one stage in the first half Westmeath looked to have broken through our backs for a goal chance only to be denied by the 4th handpass, so good intricate forward moving handpassing is penalised, lateral play was just the same as before only replaced by lateral short kicks, without addressing the fundamental issue with the game we won't solve anything, that issue is space.

Barrowsider (Carlow) - Posts: 1240 - 11/12/2018 09:27:14    2153953

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Colm Parkinson was raving about it on Twitter said the game was much better and faster I suppose it depends on what camp you are in. Some people will see what they want to see.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 1397 - 11/12/2018 09:36:05    2153955

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Replying To Barrowsider:  "My opinion after watching it first hand is that we have just handed defensive minded teams an extra tool to stifle the opposition with, there was a lot of ball played around the midfield area now I'll qualify my comments and say Carlow only had 4 of their first team out so that probably didn't help the spectacle either but I predict when county's get up to full strength games with less than 20 scores will be the norm possibly considerably less, if you couple the new handpass rule with the tackle rule as it stands then you have serious defensive advantage, at one stage in the first half Westmeath looked to have broken through our backs for a goal chance only to be denied by the 4th handpass, so good intricate forward moving handpassing is penalised, lateral play was just the same as before only replaced by lateral short kicks, without addressing the fundamental issue with the game we won't solve anything, that issue is space."
Interesting, good stuff and thanks for posting a chara, its good to get feedback from someone who was actually at a game.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 2509 - 11/12/2018 10:15:01    2153962

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "Colm Parkinson was raving about it on Twitter said the game was much better and faster I suppose it depends on what camp you are in. Some people will see what they want to see."
I wouldn't read anything into what people say about the rules for awhile yet.

Parkinson from what I read was extremely pro-changing the rules beforehand so he would've seen exactly what he wanted to see in the one game or so he has seen. .

Wait and see for ourselves.

I'm cynical enough about these rules but will try to view the league with an open mind. Hopefully there is consensus on whether they work or not but I've a feeling that no matter what they will be brought in.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 12508 - 11/12/2018 10:32:54    2153966

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Delighted now we are going to see football back again. As the game of Gaelic football was intended! There's rugby union and rugby league if one wants to see a running ball game with handpass after handpass. Spoofers out and Gaelic footballers in - yes please!

Kingdomson (Kerry) - Posts: 218 - 11/12/2018 12:10:05    2153974

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Replying To Kingdomson:  "Delighted now we are going to see football back again. As the game of Gaelic football was intended! There's rugby union and rugby league if one wants to see a running ball game with handpass after handpass. Spoofers out and Gaelic footballers in - yes please!"
The handpass was always part of the game.

In fact from the get go the game was devised to incorporate the best aspects of both Rugby and Soccer to attract Irishmen away from this foreign influence.

So really GAA was never about just kicking.

It was a successful strategy for much of the history of the association to play a direct style. It isn't so much now.

As it happens I think the handpass rule isn't too bad. It rewards teams putting pressure on the ball somewhat. I would tweak it though and allow unlimited hand passes within the attacking 45 and only 1 consecutive handpass outside the 45. Encourage teams to be attacking, make it easier for the defending team to win back the ball and encourage them to push forward. It'd be easier to referee 2 consecutive hand passes.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2512 - 11/12/2018 17:20:19    2154004

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I think it should be tweaked even more. Every second kick must be left footed .

bloodyban (Limerick) - Posts: 1106 - 11/12/2018 18:39:25    2154019

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Replying To bloodyban:  "I think it should be tweaked even more. Every second kick must be left footed ."
And every kick should be a least 20 feet high so that everyone has to leap in the air or get lifted like rugby!!!

gunman (Donegal) - Posts: 556 - 11/12/2018 19:55:53    2154027

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