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Why Are We Changing Our Game?!

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Replying To Young_gael:  "Just my own opinion, the game is on life support. Its been mostly poor since the early noughties when a few select sides discovered flooding defence and playing cynical games based around stopping the opposition works. They won All-Irelands out of nowhere and the game changed to suit that trend. Fast forward 10/15 years and traditional powerhouses are disinterested at best, former upcoming counties have dissapeared, and a phenomenol Dublin team now dominates whilst everyone else plays a mish-mash game of basketball/rugby league that is about as boring as any field game. I love this game, but something has to give and it must adapt to change because the jig is up and has been for years. It needs radical reform."
Ha ha. The rot set in before that. Over carrying was becoming a trend late nineties and physicality to the extreme of what rules and proper tackling allows but it wasn't a problem for pundits like COR when the "traditional powerhouses" were winning. "Sure it's a man's game and you can't be blowing the whistle every minute for technical fouls. What harm is an extra step or two?". That was his mantra. It's only when certain counties started to exploit this and bring it up a notch did the soap boxes come out.

Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 25/11/2018 16:43:01    2152372

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Replying To Hardtimes:  "Ha ha. The rot set in before that. Over carrying was becoming a trend late nineties and physicality to the extreme of what rules and proper tackling allows but it wasn't a problem for pundits like COR when the "traditional powerhouses" were winning. "Sure it's a man's game and you can't be blowing the whistle every minute for technical fouls. What harm is an extra step or two?". That was his mantra. It's only when certain counties started to exploit this and bring it up a notch did the soap boxes come out."
Just stop. This isnt about Meath, Cavan, Dublin or any other place or anyone from anywhere stating their case. Its about football in every county. Its in a bad state. It needs remedy. Thats my point. Every county. Some of you lot on this epitomise Paddy the Pig. There's a far bigger picture here than some can realise.

Young_gael (Meath) - Posts: 587 - 25/11/2018 20:09:44    2152395

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too many changes at once, the day of one referee could soon be gone as there is too many rules to track. People give out about the mistakes made already made by referees i think these new rules are going to lead to carnage. I for one referee and i am not looking forward to these changes all well and good at inter county games where you have support officials to help you out, now go back to the local club scene where you ref a game no linesmen or fourth official i just cant see it working without the referee getting it in the throat. On the handpass rule one possible loophole i can think of already its a bit like the 2 touch football, just say the lad making the third hand pass to his team mate and the lad catches the ball and then drops it on purpose but regains possession can he start with a new set of three hand passes? mayhem to follow believe me

mrsme (USA) - Posts: 172 - 25/11/2018 20:46:37    2152397

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Its quite amazing and coincidental the number and frequency of rule changes and trials of new rules since Dublin have been "gifted" their dominance, would make you think."
If you are trying to insinuate that the GAA are our to get Dublin in some way then I wouldn't agree at all. Dublin's success has suited the GAA down to the ground for the most part as the popularity of the sport has exploded in the country's biggest market. The fact that attendances even at Dublin games are now slipping sharply will be a huge source of worry though.

The rule changes are down to the fact that the game has been declining as a spectacle for many years and is now almost unwatchable. A couple of classic finals in recent years have partially masked massive issues with the game as a whole. You may say that people were saying the same thing 10 years ago and 20 years ago for that matter, but I honestly don't ever remember the kind of apathy and indifference we are seeing and hearing now. Attendances this year are confirmation that there is a serious issue IMO.

That's not to say I agree with the new rules by the way, like yourself I think the whole thing is a total mess.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 25/11/2018 20:51:14    2152399

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Replying To ZUL10:  "I wouldnt be so sure. The idea of kicking the ball would be that there would more turnovers as kicking is less accurate than handpassing. Just becasue there is a limit of 3 passes doesnt mean you need to use the 3 passes evrey time you gain possesion. The rule will need time but already its doomed to failure by many. Give it a chance to change the game. Thats is what most fans want from what I hear."
so you are advocating the use of 14 or 15 men behind the ball, so that when the ball is kicked they can gobble up possession...thankfully corofin won today because they were able to work out how to get through the 14 defenders, and when they got their noses in front ballintubber had no answer to it...implement the 3 handpass rule which you support and teams like ballintubber will come out on top

mayotyroneman (Tyrone) - Posts: 1821 - 25/11/2018 21:09:53    2152400

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Trialling them in the national league is a disgrace, it's the most important competition for the vast majority of counties and only realistic chance to win a trophy.
Its completely unfair on team preparing for the championship in 2019 as it reverts back to the status quo after the league.It will lead to reduced attendances and more defensive football.
Most people in the suits are people on ego trips who don't represent the vast majority of the gaels as was seen by the voting down of the transparency motion at congress.
The players put them money in the kitty.
Only rule that will be kept is the sin bin.
Well back to the good old days of hoofing the ball away.
shaggylegend (Monaghan) - Posts: 1761 - 24/11/2018 22:58:47 jesus plenty of cliched nonsense here.
League is only realistic chance for some sides to win a trophy but trialling the rules in the league is the exact place for trialling them. Its a high profile competition and it doesnt affect the main competition of the year. It isnt unfair on teams preparing for the championship as every team is in the exact same position.
Lazy going on about "people in suits" "vast majority .... gaels"

Absolutely agree . Couldn't put it better .
Leave our game alone tactics will come and go . Stop inventing new rules or will will be left with a shadow of the sport we know .
farneygael (Monaghan) - Posts: 25 - 24/11/2018 23:15:19 2152336Tactics do come and go but rules do need to change to adapt to tactics as well. The sport of gaelic has significant issues and has for some time and rules do need to change to combat that

I rarely comment anymore but on this topic I will only say that the GAA is tinkering around the rules BECAUSE it covers and hides the fact that the MAIN problem is the disparity and gap between Dublin and the rest. If the media and GAA convince the fans that the problem is tactics, too much hand passing, not enough kicking etc THEN the masses will be deflected away from the reality that what is REALLY destroying Gaelic football is the fact that we have ONE team that is professional in all but name and who will dominate for years to come. However if you tell people a different thing and focus away from the reality then many will eventually accept and believe it. I like Dublin, I ALWAYS have BUT these 'rule changes' are Emperor's New Clothes nonsense to take the focus and truth away from the FACT that ONE county now totally dominates AND Croke Park is largely responsible for that.
Ulsterman - Posts: 9101 - 25/11/2018 01:04:24Ulsterman you sound like Trump on twitter with the use of the capitals and some of the doom mongering. The main problem isnt Dublin vs the rest. It is tactics, too much hand passing. Not having a properly defined tackle/means to disposses the ball carrier.

I don't like the new rules and believe they will cause confusion and anger. Are they going to put a referee in each half because how in the name is a ref to keep track of all these rules?
Pat Spillane and his ilk yearn about the catch and kick days of the past but a look online and at results show you football was crap enough back then in many games and there were many one sided hammerings but sure when Kerry were dishing them out it was all ok.
yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 9364 - 25/11/2018 12:57:05Any good referee will easily be able to keep track of all those rules. Referees in many other sports do so on their own and have far more complicated/convulated rules

Just my own opinion, the game is on life support. Its been mostly poor since the early noughties when a few select sides discovered flooding defence and playing cynical games based around stopping the opposition works. They won All-Irelands out of nowhere and the game changed to suit that trend. Fast forward 10/15 years and traditional powerhouses are disinterested at best, former upcoming counties have dissapeared, and a phenomenol Dublin team now dominates whilst everyone else plays a mish-mash game of basketball/rugby league that is about as boring as any field game. I love this game, but something has to give and it must adapt to change because the jig is up and has been for years. It needs radical reform.
Young_gael (Meath) - Posts: 21 - 25/11/2018 14:21:10What has to give though and what do you see as radical reform?

DonaldDuck (Tipperary) - Posts: 544 - 25/11/2018 21:47:54    2152406

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What about some of the best scores this sport has ever seen over the years . Some of them had a lead up that to involved only handpassing and way beyond the 3 allowed now .
The had pass rule will lead to a disaster. Lead to a more defensive game . As in when the 3 handpasses are up and nothing is on to kick forward I can see most teams at this stage kicking 30 , 40 or even 50 yards back to the keeper
It will be a disaster .
Our game is great and is special and I will agree it could do with a bit of attention but not a change in rules. Maybe enforce them better make some clearer but certainly not add these crazy rules to our great sport .

farneygael (Monaghan) - Posts: 277 - 25/11/2018 22:09:15    2152409

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Something else that went unnoticed central council was the pairings for the supper 8s.

Group 1 Munster winners, Ulster winners, Leinster runners up, Connacht runners up.

Group 2. Leinster winners, Connacht Winners, Munster runners up, Ulster runner up.

Provincal champions to be at home in the opening game.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 25/11/2018 22:59:29    2152415

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Also what looks like a sensible proposal is U20 players who play senior allowed to play for the U20s once the senior team are knocked out of the championship.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 25/11/2018 23:04:14    2152417

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Replying To Young_gael:  "Just stop. This isnt about Meath, Cavan, Dublin or any other place or anyone from anywhere stating their case. Its about football in every county. Its in a bad state. It needs remedy. Thats my point. Every county. Some of you lot on this epitomise Paddy the Pig. There's a far bigger picture here than some can realise."
You are obviously referring to Tyrone and Armagh when you talk about 'teams coming from nowhere in the early noughties' with their tactics and 'cynicism'. With respect that is total revisionist nonsense. Are you saying that Oisin McConville, Stevie McDonnell, Ronan Clarke, Diarmuid Marsden, Peter Canavan, Brian McGuigan, Sean Cavanagh, Stephen O'Neill etc were bad footballers who couldn't play the game? I also think you are forgetting your own county who introduced a lot of negativity and cynicism into Gaelic football especially when they battered Tyrone and Peter Canavan into submission in the 90's.

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9702 - 26/11/2018 00:45:06    2152421

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Replying To Young_gael:  "Just stop. This isnt about Meath, Cavan, Dublin or any other place or anyone from anywhere stating their case. Its about football in every county. Its in a bad state. It needs remedy. Thats my point. Every county. Some of you lot on this epitomise Paddy the Pig. There's a far bigger picture here than some can realise."
Ah it's just my own opinion young Gael.

Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 26/11/2018 10:28:47    2152440

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "If you are trying to insinuate that the GAA are our to get Dublin in some way then I wouldn't agree at all. Dublin's success has suited the GAA down to the ground for the most part as the popularity of the sport has exploded in the country's biggest market. The fact that attendances even at Dublin games are now slipping sharply will be a huge source of worry though.

The rule changes are down to the fact that the game has been declining as a spectacle for many years and is now almost unwatchable. A couple of classic finals in recent years have partially masked massive issues with the game as a whole. You may say that people were saying the same thing 10 years ago and 20 years ago for that matter, but I honestly don't ever remember the kind of apathy and indifference we are seeing and hearing now. Attendances this year are confirmation that there is a serious issue IMO.

That's not to say I agree with the new rules by the way, like yourself I think the whole thing is a total mess."
Its subjective of course and likely comes down to opinion.

I do think its coincidental, given the volume and frequency and type of rules being implemented in this era in particular.

In recent years we have had the mark and kick-out rule, lets be honest Dublin and Cluxton used that more effectively then anyone else.

This year in a year when Dublin devised a system playing in front of blanket defenses and picking off teams, a hand pass rule is introduced.

I dont disagree with what you say, i think the a strong Dublin is always welcome in the GAA, but Dublin cantering by the best counties in the pack is good for no one and if the rules soften their cough and make games a better spectacle all well and good from the GAA's perspective in my opinion.

Perhaps its being paranoid, but its coincidental none the less.

I do think its part of a strategy myself, two birds and all that.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 26/11/2018 11:25:50    2152448

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Its subjective of course and likely comes down to opinion.

I do think its coincidental, given the volume and frequency and type of rules being implemented in this era in particular.

In recent years we have had the mark and kick-out rule, lets be honest Dublin and Cluxton used that more effectively then anyone else.

This year in a year when Dublin devised a system playing in front of blanket defenses and picking off teams, a hand pass rule is introduced.

I dont disagree with what you say, i think the a strong Dublin is always welcome in the GAA, but Dublin cantering by the best counties in the pack is good for no one and if the rules soften their cough and make games a better spectacle all well and good from the GAA's perspective in my opinion.

Perhaps its being paranoid, but its coincidental none the less.

I do think its part of a strategy myself, two birds and all that."
Yes Dublin used the kickouts better than anybody. Everyone else tried to copy the approach, very few did it well and we ended up with a bit of a shambles in a lot of games, hence the rule change. I don't think the new rules were brought in to negate or hamper cluxton directly if that makes sense, it was more to arrest a growing trend of short kickouts across the game as a whole. What works will always be copied.

There seems to be a paranoia among certain Dublin fans who think every change and every suggestion in the game is a veiled attempt to hamstring Dublin. The reality is that Dublin are good enough to play around any rule changes, I don't think they have anything to worry about. Again, I'd have my doubts about whether some of the changes coming in will actually improve the game but we'll see.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 26/11/2018 12:24:52    2152458

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "Yes Dublin used the kickouts better than anybody. Everyone else tried to copy the approach, very few did it well and we ended up with a bit of a shambles in a lot of games, hence the rule change. I don't think the new rules were brought in to negate or hamper cluxton directly if that makes sense, it was more to arrest a growing trend of short kickouts across the game as a whole. What works will always be copied.

There seems to be a paranoia among certain Dublin fans who think every change and every suggestion in the game is a veiled attempt to hamstring Dublin. The reality is that Dublin are good enough to play around any rule changes, I don't think they have anything to worry about. Again, I'd have my doubts about whether some of the changes coming in will actually improve the game but we'll see."
As much as i respect your opinion Gerry. I think its one we will agree to differ on this one.

You know what they say about paranoia, doesn't mean.....! Like i said i think the volume, frequency and target for the rules is all very coincidental so i think there is an argument there to be made.

I wouldn't be as arrogant to think that the GAA make rules for Dublin alone, i do think its a happy by product of closing down some of Dublin innovations and try and level the playing field some what, as you say Dublin cantering against the pack hasn't made for huge attendances.

Like you i think we are well placed and we have a good manager and excellent coaches and we have had to adjust to rule changes before, i can think of a few things we might bring to table and a couple of innovations that might be unique to us that others may struggle with in these new rules, but that might be a conversation for when the ball is kicked in anger.

How do you think Kerry could adjust? Maybe the wrong year for big Kieran to call it a day given the emphasis on fielding.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 26/11/2018 13:11:39    2152467

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Anyone that thinks the game is fine isn't watching football but other than the Sin Bin change (which I cannot understand anyone being against, should have been here years ago), I worry that most of these rule changes are not fixing the main problem with football 'the blanket defense'. If anything they will lead to teams dropping more and more players back to cover deep kick passes and line balls which must be played forwards.

The game needs to adapt, currently people are turning away in droves from the Inter County scene (a) because their county can't compete and (b) their county thinks the only way to compete (and Fermanagh and Carlow have further fueled this notion) is to deploy a blanket defence and stifle better teams.

I know Brolly's zone system isn't perfect but it's a starting point for a discussion.

cavandub (Cavan) - Posts: 67 - 26/11/2018 13:27:12    2152470

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Replying To TheUsername:  "As much as i respect your opinion Gerry. I think its one we will agree to differ on this one.

You know what they say about paranoia, doesn't mean.....! Like i said i think the volume, frequency and target for the rules is all very coincidental so i think there is an argument there to be made.

I wouldn't be as arrogant to think that the GAA make rules for Dublin alone, i do think its a happy by product of closing down some of Dublin innovations and try and level the playing field some what, as you say Dublin cantering against the pack hasn't made for huge attendances.

Like you i think we are well placed and we have a good manager and excellent coaches and we have had to adjust to rule changes before, i can think of a few things we might bring to table and a couple of innovations that might be unique to us that others may struggle with in these new rules, but that might be a conversation for when the ball is kicked in anger.

How do you think Kerry could adjust? Maybe the wrong year for big Kieran to call it a day given the emphasis on fielding."
Kerry will be fine. Our panel is a bit unbalanced we have forwards galore but a lot of problem areas from goalkeeper, full back and midfield, we also lack a Donnachadh / Galvin type player in the half forwards, this was a major factor in the way we were overrun in games last year. Hopefully PK can address these areas, may take a few seasons to get it right.

I don't expect all of the rules to stick so I don't know how much adjustment is needed in all honesty.

Time willl tell how much of a loss Donaghy will be, we have Geaney and Clifford inside who can both field very well so I don't see a big problem, getting clean ball in to them is the thing. Time waits for no man and I think it was time for him to go. I hope he gets involved on the sideline in the future.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 26/11/2018 13:34:47    2152471

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "Kerry will be fine. Our panel is a bit unbalanced we have forwards galore but a lot of problem areas from goalkeeper, full back and midfield, we also lack a Donnachadh / Galvin type player in the half forwards, this was a major factor in the way we were overrun in games last year. Hopefully PK can address these areas, may take a few seasons to get it right.

I don't expect all of the rules to stick so I don't know how much adjustment is needed in all honesty.

Time willl tell how much of a loss Donaghy will be, we have Geaney and Clifford inside who can both field very well so I don't see a big problem, getting clean ball in to them is the thing. Time waits for no man and I think it was time for him to go. I hope he gets involved on the sideline in the future."
Good stuff.

Agreed it will be interesting to see what happens with the new rules and whether they will make it to the championship.

To my mind how they will translate to the game, is that everyone will just push push up on kickouts and it will be a melee, of sorts and everyone will just go man for man. Kick-out from the 20 meter line mean their is likely zero risk in pushing up on the kick out now and is likely to be universal.

Similarly i think the half forward line is going to be key, to fielding i can see that being a key tactic with the forward mark. I think it will be less important in the full forward line myself, i actually think it will be the speedy and clever full forwards who can get into pockets of space to avail of the forward mark who will do well as opposed to good fielding full forwards in the main. Think most of the fielding will be done at half forward myself, teams will no doubt pack the defense and the transition between positions between every other position and half forward carries less risk kicking then to full forward.

have a feeling the whole thing is going to resemble Rugby and loose a bit of finesse.

But we will see.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 26/11/2018 13:43:53    2152472

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Replying To Ulsterman:  "You are obviously referring to Tyrone and Armagh when you talk about 'teams coming from nowhere in the early noughties' with their tactics and 'cynicism'. With respect that is total revisionist nonsense. Are you saying that Oisin McConville, Stevie McDonnell, Ronan Clarke, Diarmuid Marsden, Peter Canavan, Brian McGuigan, Sean Cavanagh, Stephen O'Neill etc were bad footballers who couldn't play the game? I also think you are forgetting your own county who introduced a lot of negativity and cynicism into Gaelic football especially when they battered Tyrone and Peter Canavan into submission in the 90's."
Yeah I was mostly referring to them. You make a lot of good points, all of the afforementioned players were very high quality. Those teams were competetive and yes, Meath in the 90s were very physical/borderline also and I wouldnt dispute that. But its besides the point. The game has been going downhill for years and Im not here to point fingers or blame a,b, or c. Its the entire inter county setup in the country's fault it has come to this shambles. Its bigger than people from county A pointing fingers at county B. To address what a few people asked of me as to how Id address the situation, I honestly wouldnt know where to start... rule changes that point toward a fast, flowing, positive game. Incentivising the kicking of the ball. Breaking up the championship into 2/3 tiers and overhauling the structures of inter-county competetion altogether. Thats what Id personally like to do.

Young_gael (Meath) - Posts: 587 - 26/11/2018 16:43:57    2152502

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Replying To Young_gael:  "Yeah I was mostly referring to them. You make a lot of good points, all of the afforementioned players were very high quality. Those teams were competetive and yes, Meath in the 90s were very physical/borderline also and I wouldnt dispute that. But its besides the point. The game has been going downhill for years and Im not here to point fingers or blame a,b, or c. Its the entire inter county setup in the country's fault it has come to this shambles. Its bigger than people from county A pointing fingers at county B. To address what a few people asked of me as to how Id address the situation, I honestly wouldnt know where to start... rule changes that point toward a fast, flowing, positive game. Incentivising the kicking of the ball. Breaking up the championship into 2/3 tiers and overhauling the structures of inter-county competetion altogether. Thats what Id personally like to do."
Some people say we need to define the tackle or a new tackle. The tackle is clearly defined. The problem is it's completely ignored. Some people lament the loss of the small explosive player and one on one duels. The tackle as it is now and constant over carrying has left these obsolete.
In the past lads that could go at full pelt on 4 steps were a nightmare for opposition and electrified the crowd. Now they're easily held up. Big powerful players are more desirable. It might take them 6 or 7 steps to get into their stride but they can take them. It takes power more than skill to beat men and charge through them. Over physical tackling enabled the blanket. If the tackle was applied to the strictest letter of the law the blanket would never have been as effective. Might not have even been a thing.
I'd agree that no clear strike on hand passing has also left the old art of defending near impossible along with little opportunity to dispossess because of extra steps.
It's no ones fault. It has gradually been allowed to seep in and coaches evolved to suit. As far back as the early 80's steps were an issue. It would be very difficult to go back now on these but not impossible and IMO would open up the game immeasurably. Would make more common sense to me too than these latest changes they're proposing.

Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 26/11/2018 18:12:58    2152514

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The GPA are a blight on the whole organisation. One of their own, David Collins (a hurler!) was on the committee which has brought along these rubbish rules, and now Paul Flynn is out complaining about them?? What a joke!

icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts: 2550 - 26/11/2018 18:23:53    2152518

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