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I wonder if there is enough value to doing well in proposed 'Leinster SHC Group 1' - lose 3 group games, advance to Lein QF; win all 3, earn a QF bye instead? omahant (USA) - Posts: 3609 - 09/10/2026 00:50:55 2696662 Link 0 |
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Could you not make it more complicated!?
Seanfan (Roscommon) - Posts: 984 - 09/10/2026 11:31:34 2696675 Link 0 |
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From the Hurling Games Intelligence Unit (GIU) Maybe one other thing that stood out was that the Liam McCarthy series was relatively non-competitive. "When you get to those quarter-finals, semi-finals, final, those games are being won by big margins, and apart from Clare and Limerick this year, the other four games were won by really big margins, and maybe there's just something to be looked at there. It's a small sample size, but it's something worth watching over a period of time to see if that trend continues. Seanfan (Roscommon) - Posts: 984 - 09/10/2026 13:05:27 2696683 Link 0 |
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Apologies - I missed how your original post on this thing said "If Kerry make the McDonagh Cup final in the future - Kerry should be allowed into Munster", which is obviously a different thing from the current rule of being allowed into Munster if they win the McDonagh Cup Final. But yes, Kerry is an anomaly here all right. Just making it to the McDonagh Final would be enough for any other county to qualify for provincial competition, so it should be enough for Kerry too. But where do they go? Obviously they go into Munster if they win. But if this proposal passes and nothing else changes, what happens if Kerry lose a McDonagh Final? Do they go into Leinster, same as other loser of the final would? And would we have a situation then where they might go into Leinster one year. go into Munster some other time, and then be back in Leinster again sometime after that? And going to speak bluntly here, and absolutely no disrespect intended, but realistically - what would the attitude of the other Munster counties be to the possibility of the Munster Championship admitting Kerry as McDonagh runners-up? Would there be an attitude of "they're not even good enough to win that thing, why should we let them in with us" ? Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 4156 - 09/10/2026 13:13:38 2696685 Link 0 |
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I think the structure has been working. If you go back further there would always be one or two teams that would close up from time to time before dropping back. I think it is much more sustained now. You could replace Laois next year with any of the McDonagh Cup teams and the results would be similar. And when you look at the scoring difference of the 6th team over the years since it was added (Laois -92; Westmeath -80; Carlow -48; Antrim -77; Kildare -68) it has been trending down. Theres a lot of work going on in these counties to keep getting closer. Yes - it will take a few more years before we see one of the "always in Leinster" teams genuinely in trouble but I'd expect to see this within 5 years. brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 512 - 09/10/2026 13:48:09 2696692 Link 0 |
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I wouldn't agree on this as if you compare it to the previous 20 years there was next to no cases of teams outside the top 5 upsetting or drawing with teams inside. westmeath consistenly getting results against wexford, carlow drawing with Kilkenny (and with Galway in the league), Antrim beating wexford, (Off the top of my head were Dublin the victim of a shock or am I thinking of the Laois Preliminary QF?) These results are monumental progress. And I genuinely think the current system was helping close the gap, but these things take generations and patience is lacking in the GAA because you have people on TV and in the papers who know that complaining about systems is a guaranteed way to generate clicks
Overdahill (Galway) - Posts: 156 - 09/10/2026 15:06:42 2696695 Link 1 |
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Presume you're still referring to within Leinster, and just to point out I was measuring results for teams outside the top four, rather than the top five you mention. But I'd submit that large part of the reason there were far fewer upsets or surprise results over the previous 20 years (say 2001 to 2021) is simply because there were far fewer of those sorts of matches in the first place. These days, if you go by my way of games against top four, there are eight of them per year. For most of the 2000s and 2010s, with their knockout championships, there might only have been one or two. Some years none at all. Just stands to reason that there'd more upsets or surprises when there are more matches played in the first place. Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 4156 - 09/10/2026 16:23:17 2696702 Link 0 |
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I actually think the current structure is working in many ways too, and that it's probably the best possible of the realistic options. The top two get to play in the Leinster Final. A third team also goes through to the All-Ireland series, And those outside the traditional top teams get the chance to compete too, and to stay there for as long as they're good enough. I'd certainly prefer it to what's now currently being proposed, where as I keep pointing out, probably only one of Kildare/Carlow/Laois/Westmeath etc. will get to play a top four team in any given year at all, and they might never get to play a top two team. You and I might differ on whether or not the gap is closing between top tier and middle tier, or how quickly it might close, but I daresay we'd probably agree that if middle tier hardly ever gets to even play top tier, then there's little to no hope of the gap ever closing any way significantly more. Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 4156 - 09/10/2026 16:53:24 2696705 Link 1 |
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If you go back to the 80s and 90s there were still the odd shocks. We lost to Roscommon in 1984, and to Laois in 1985 although Laois were good back then, Antrim beat Offaly in 1989, Waterford lost to Kerry in 1992. But agree, these were few and far between. But then there were way less games back then also.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 20874 - 09/10/2026 17:10:43 2696709 Link 0 |
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I dunno, Westmeath had a very good Minor team this year and Mullingar CBS seem to be good at every age group but outside of that, I'm not seeing much evidence of these counties bridging the gap at underage level, has been a case of same old, same old for me Now a good underage team goes further in a weaker county than it does in a stronger county and given how only the very best of each underage team make their way to Senior and that weaker teams probably have longer tails than stronger teams, the gap at Senior level is going to be smaller between counties than the gap at underage level But going off Minor and U20 results the last five years and counting Offaly as part of the "Big 5" in Leinster, it doesn't seem to me that the rest are in the cusp of a major breakthrough at Senior level in the next 5 years, maybe I'm wrong though ElGranSenor (Wexford) - Posts: 1589 - 09/10/2026 20:58:58 2696726 Link 0 |
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This year Westmeath won 2 games at minor but didnt make it through on account of the odd system being used. In 2023 we only beat Westmeath by 5 points in the u20LQF. Laois knocked us out at u20 last year, and knocked ourselves and Kilkenny out of the Leinster minor championship in 2022. They only lost to Offaly by a point this year too. Laois also had a good u16 team this year. Kildare knocked us out at u20 5 years ago, and our minors only beat theirs by 4 points that year too I think. At the same time they arent consistently getting good results against the top 4 or 5, there have been some hammerings mixed in with the above results. Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 20874 - 10/10/2026 10:59:17 2696741 Link 0 |
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Suggestions... legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 10103 - 10/10/2026 15:08:24 2696753 Link 0 |
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Are you re-writing my post (page 3, item 3) with Team 4 retained? :) I prefer my 7-team table, 4-game, 2 home/2 away, SF4 etc (page 4) - with mid- & lower-ranked teams playing others a bit stronger for development. omahant (USA) - Posts: 3609 - 10/10/2026 20:40:29 2696773 Link 0 |
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Nickey Brennan and co have published their plan. Just merely suggesting how I would like to see the knockout stages pan out. Same for how Kerry fit into this this new structure.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 10103 - 10/10/2026 21:05:35 2696778 Link 0 |
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Seems you didn't understand - just saying your QF & SF home teams look like mine (page 3) - yes, Brennan HDC plan.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3609 - 11/10/2026 00:32:32 2696792 Link 0 |
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On a more complicated matter that should be explored by the powers that be... It should be possible to have 1 or 2 home games each and to reverse fixtures as much as possible in the following year. It is tricky with potentially 2 swapping between A and B, and also potentially 2 swapping between B and JMC. It can be done but does require a bit of complexity. If there was just 1 to 1 promotion and relegation between the 3 groups - a maximum of 2 teams could go 2 years without getting 3 home games over the 2 years. With potentially 2 swapping between A and B, and also potentially 2 swapping between B and JMC - it is possible to achieve the same end result where a maximum of 2 teams could go 2 years without getting 3 home games over the 2 years. It will take a bit of vision and explaining is the problem! legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 10103 - 11/10/2026 12:46:47 2696811 Link 0 |
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As we've pointed out before, odd-number team quantities allow a round robin to split evenly home/away (like Munster) every year. Although, as you stated, promotion/relegation might not permit a full reversal of venue, year-on-year. Would a 7-team Leinster partial round robin be better than what's proposed? ✓ One group, 7 teams ✓ Partial round robin, play 4 of 6 ✓ Top 2 (seeds 1,2) play top 5 seeds (4 games) ✓ Bottom 2 (seeds 6,7) play bottom 5 (4 games) ✓ Mid 3 (seeds 3,4,5) already play Other 4 (1,2,6,7 above) ✓ Two home / two away ✓ Table top 4 of 7 to Lein SFs (1st v 4th; 2nd v 3rd) ✓ McD 5 teams (seeds 8 to 12), round robin (4 games) ✓ LMcC 6th & 7th to McD SFs (6 hosts 9; 8 hosts 7) ✓ Relegation Final (11 v 12, neutral venue) omahant (USA) - Posts: 3609 - 11/10/2026 16:16:54 2696827 Link 0 |
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So.....the team that comes third gets easier games the following year than the team that comes second? Come third, and the following year you'd play 1, 2, 6, 7. Come second, and the following year you'd play 1, 3, 4, 5. Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 4156 - 12/10/2026 00:59:51 2696912 Link 0 |
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Or another thought on the above - if you worked it that way, then Kilkenny would actually be rewarded for their bad showing (by their standards) in only coming fourth this year, as they'd have easier passage to the knock-out stages next year. If they'd come in one of their customary top two positions, they'd be playing Dublin, Galway, Offaly and Wexford. But by coming fourth, they'd be playing Dublin, Galway, Kildare and Laois. No disrespect whatsoever intended to anybody here, and am well aware of how we in Wexford aren't as far ahead of them as we'd like to be, but you'd have to think games against Kildare and Laois would be easier than ones against Offaly and Wexford. Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 4156 - 12/10/2026 12:54:10 2697001 Link 0 |
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@Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 4130 - 12/10/2026 12:54:10 omahant (USA) - Posts: 3609 - 12/10/2026 16:03:54 2697035 Link 0 |