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Replying To Doylerwex: "Round robin statistics don't suggest that the top 4 group would make the semi final every year.
Galway, Wexford and Dublin have all been inconsistent.
Offaly are improving but one good underage team isn't enough to sustain that consistently.
I would be most worried about the top team in the second group to be honest." So far in 7 years of Round Robins every county has finished outside the top 3 at least once.
As regards the proposal, the top team in the 2nd group, or the 2nd team either, I presume if they won their quarterfinal they would be in the other group the following year?
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 20766 - 30/09/2026 10:14:11
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Replying To Seanfan: "What incentive is there for winning the McDonagh Cup (2nd tier AI championship) in this new proposed system?" A night out on the lash, and a medal.
But in terms of a county's placement for the following year's championship - none at all.
Group 2 in Leinster each year would be made up of the two losing Leinster quarter-finalists of the previous year, and the two McDonagh Cup finalists of the previous year. So in those terms, if you make the McDonagh Cup Final, doesn't matter if you win or lose. You'd still be in Group 2 of Leinster the following year anyway.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 4098 - 30/09/2026 11:48:09
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Replying To Viking66: "So far in 7 years of Round Robins every county has finished outside the top 3 at least once.
As regards the proposal, the top team in the 2nd group, or the 2nd team either, I presume if they won their quarterfinal they would be in the other group the following year?" On the first part - true, but you'd have to suspect Kilkenny coming fourth this year was a real anomaly, and that going forward, they won't be outside the top two very often, never mind the top three.
Second part - also true. Group 1 each year would be made up of the four semi-finalists of the previous year. So yes, means that if you come through Group 2 and then beat a Group 1 team in a quarter-final, you'd be in Group 1 yourself the following year.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 4098 - 30/09/2026 11:50:37
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Replying To legendzxix: "The 3 tiered solution just seems like an offering that something was offered while eventually keeping the status quo.
Green Proposal: status quo.
Red Proposal: 3 tiered offering." I'm lost - I've no idea what that means.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3575 - 30/09/2026 12:00:27
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Replying To Pikeman96: "On the first part - true, but you'd have to suspect Kilkenny coming fourth this year was a real anomaly, and that going forward, they won't be outside the top two very often, never mind the top three.
Second part - also true. Group 1 each year would be made up of the four semi-finalists of the previous year. So yes, means that if you come through Group 2 and then beat a Group 1 team in a quarter-final, you'd be in Group 1 yourself the following year." Basically the 2 counties with the most hurlers, Kilkenny and Galway, will likely be playing mostly in Group 1, while the other 2 Group 1 places will possibly vary a little year on year?
Isn't that something like what we have already? Or from a development point of view something worse than we have already? At least under the current format the 5th and 6th placed teams get to play Kilkenny and Galway every year. Carlow drew with Kilkenny only recently.
Under this new system most of the group 2 counties will hardly ever get to play Kilkenny or Galway.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 20766 - 30/09/2026 12:24:19
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Replying To omahant: "My feed to mixed groups:
HURLING
LIAM MCCARTHY CUP (14 teams; could be amended to other 'even quantity' of teams)
All teams play mixed-province, inter-group ties, encompassing all Prov 'KO ties', prior to AIC KO
- Munster KO 5 & Leinster KO 9
- AIC with two groups of 7 (A & B)
- Groups 'formed', not drawn (after Prov SFs)
- Muns QF loser to Group A, winner to B
- SF1 opponent of Muns QF winner to A
- Muns Finalists placed in opposite groups
- Muns SF losers to opposite groups
- There is a Muns trio in A & pair in B
- Lein Prelim winner to Group A, loser to B
- QF1 opponent of Lein Prelim winner to B
- Lein QF1 & QF2 winners (SF1);
Lein QF3 & QF4 winners (SF2); and
Lein Finalists, each placed in a group
opposite teams played
- Lein QF & SF losers, each to a group
opposite teams played
- There is a Lein quartet in A & quintet in B
- Merge to form two groups of 7 (A & B)
- Each team completes a 7-game inter-group
schedule, including all their Prov KO ties (1-4)
- Prov KO is 'winner on the day' (1 point each, if
drawn at full time)
- All teams play in the last inter-group round on
June 6/7, including Prov Finals [could be June
20/21 if AIC Finals were flipped (football first)
and played on opposite sides of the August
Bank Holiday weekend
- Top 6 of 14-team table advance to AIC KO
- Top 2 earn QF byes (not necessarily including
Prov Champs)
- AIC KO targets non-repeat 'intra-group ties'
- AI QFs could be 3v6 & 4v5 (if non repeat)
- 14th relegated/ McDonagh Champ promoted
- Multiple 'Kildares' stay up
- Reduce NHL schedule, if necessary"]I think 14 teams might be a few too many though, 12 would be fairer IMO
ElGranSenor (Wexford) - Posts: 1558 - 30/09/2026 12:37:41
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Replying To Viking66: "Basically the 2 counties with the most hurlers, Kilkenny and Galway, will likely be playing mostly in Group 1, while the other 2 Group 1 places will possibly vary a little year on year?
Isn't that something like what we have already? Or from a development point of view something worse than we have already? At least under the current format the 5th and 6th placed teams get to play Kilkenny and Galway every year. Carlow drew with Kilkenny only recently.
Under this new system most of the group 2 counties will hardly ever get to play Kilkenny or Galway." Yup, and again much the same point I made in my initial longer post outlining what I see as the issues with this thing.
You'd expect both Kilkenny and Galway in Group 1 in any given year after making the semi-finals the previous year, either by virtue of finishing in the top two in Group 1 that previous year, or winning a quarter-final against a Group 2 team if they'd had a "bad" year and only came third or fourth.
Even this year, with Kilkenny having a bad year and coming fourth, they'd still have been fancied in any quarter-final against any team below them (either ourselves, Kildare, or any of the Joe McDonagh Cup teams).
Barring a surprise somewhere along the way, you'd expect the other two teams in Group 1 to come from Dublin, Offaly, and ourselves. And that the third of them would end up claiming one of the top two spots in Group 2.
That means that the teams such as Kildare, Laois, Westmeath, Antrim, etc., that this new system would be supposed to help, are basically playing off in Group 2 for one spot for one of them to play a quarter-final. And if Kilkenny finish in top two every year, they'd never get the chance to play the Cats at all, unless they spring that surprise in the quarter-final. And even then, would only be a 50-50 chance of playing Kilkenny, as they could be in the other semi-final instead!
The more I think about it, the more obvious it becomes that this system would actually put playing at the highest level more out of reach of all those counties than it is now.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 4098 - 30/09/2026 14:04:17
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Group 1 looks like it'll have dead rubbers in round 3 unless they have some incentive baked in for winning the group.
The McDonagh finalists both qualifying for Group 2 is like the provincial football finals and league finals offering no competitive incentive. The incentive of winning promotion has made McDonagh finals be dramatic. If the losing semi finalists played off to play the McDonagh runner up in a playoff for the final group 2 spot, it would at least offer an incentive for winning the McDonagh final.
Football has learned to avoid dead rubbers. The detail of the Leinster tiered format avoiding dead rubbers isn't clear from current reports I've seen.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 10083 - 30/09/2026 19:13:11
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Replying To ElGranSenor: " Replying To omahant: "My feed to mixed groups:
HURLING
LIAM MCCARTHY CUP (14 teams; could be amended to other 'even quantity' of teams)
All teams play mixed-province, inter-group ties, encompassing all Prov 'KO ties', prior to AIC KO
- Munster KO 5 & Leinster KO 9
- AIC with two groups of 7 (A & B)
- Groups 'formed', not drawn (after Prov SFs)
- Muns QF loser to Group A, winner to B
- SF1 opponent of Muns QF winner to A
- Muns Finalists placed in opposite groups
- Muns SF losers to opposite groups
- There is a Muns trio in A & pair in B
- Lein Prelim winner to Group A, loser to B
- QF1 opponent of Lein Prelim winner to B
- Lein QF1 & QF2 winners (SF1);
Lein QF3 & QF4 winners (SF2); and
Lein Finalists, each placed in a group
opposite teams played
- Lein QF & SF losers, each to a group
opposite teams played
- There is a Lein quartet in A & quintet in B
- Merge to form two groups of 7 (A & B)
- Each team completes a 7-game inter-group
schedule, including all their Prov KO ties (1-4)
- Prov KO is 'winner on the day' (1 point each, if
drawn at full time)
- All teams play in the last inter-group round on
June 6/7, including Prov Finals [could be June
20/21 if AIC Finals were flipped (football first)
and played on opposite sides of the August
Bank Holiday weekend - Top 6 of 14-team table advance to AIC KO - Top 2 earn QF byes (not necessarily including Prov Champs) - AIC KO targets non-repeat 'intra-group ties' - AI QFs could be 3v6 & 4v5 (if non repeat) - 14th relegated/ McDonagh Champ promoted - Multiple 'Kildares' stay up - Reduce NHL schedule, if necessary"
My plan works for 12 as well - Muns 5, Lein 7 feeding two AIC groups of 6 instead.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3575 - 02/10/2026 19:36:56
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Replying To Viking66: "Basically the 2 counties with the most hurlers, Kilkenny and Galway, will likely be playing mostly in Group 1, while the other 2 Group 1 places will possibly vary a little year on year?
Isn't that something like what we have already? Or from a development point of view something worse than we have already? At least under the current format the 5th and 6th placed teams get to play Kilkenny and Galway every year. Carlow drew with Kilkenny only recently.
Under this new system most of the group 2 counties will hardly ever get to play Kilkenny or Galway." How about 3,4,5,6 plays 1,2,7,8?
That is, KK, G & McD pair play 4 mid-ranked teams.
Top 4 to SFs (or 3, one SF)?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3575 - 02/10/2026 19:45:19
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@Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 4094 - 30/09/2026 14:04:17
Would 3,4,5,6 playing 1,2,7,8 be better?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3575 - 02/10/2026 20:00:00
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Replying To legendzxix: "Group 1 looks like it'll have dead rubbers in round 3 unless they have some incentive baked in for winning the group.
The McDonagh finalists both qualifying for Group 2 is like the provincial football finals and league finals offering no competitive incentive. The incentive of winning promotion has made McDonagh finals be dramatic. If the losing semi finalists played off to play the McDonagh runner up in a playoff for the final group 2 spot, it would at least offer an incentive for winning the McDonagh final.
Football has learned to avoid dead rubbers. The detail of the Leinster tiered format avoiding dead rubbers isn't clear from current reports I've seen." I agree with you.
Imagine if both Down and Wicklow had qualified for Sam 2027 ???
It would not have been so dramatic.
sponger (Wicklow) - Posts: 3054 - 02/10/2026 20:30:42
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Replying To omahant: "@Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 4094 - 30/09/2026 14:04:17
Would 3,4,5,6 playing 1,2,7,8 be better?" Let's just say there was a situation in the Leinster Minor Hurling Championship this year to absolutely prove for once and for all how that sort of "cross-play" structure doesn't work.
And taken to absolute extremes, if you don't know what I mean:
Group A: Teams 3, 4, 5 and 6. Two to go through from this group.
Group B: Teams 1, 2, 7 and 8. Also two to go through from this group.
Now say every team in Group A beats every team in Group B. All four teams in Group A end up on eight points but only two of them go through. Meanwhile, all four teams in Group B have zero points, but two of them go through anyway.
As I said, that's an absolute extreme, but look up what happened Westmeath in Minor Hurling this year and you'll see why "cross-play" groups are not a good idea.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 4098 - 03/10/2026 13:54:43
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Let's just say there was a situation in the Leinster Minor Hurling Championship this year to absolutely prove for once and for all how that sort of "cross-play" structure doesn't work.
And taken to absolute extremes, if you don't know what I mean:
Group A: Teams 3, 4, 5 and 6. Two to go through from this group.
Group B: Teams 1, 2, 7 and 8. Also two to go through from this group.
Now say every team in Group A beats every team in Group B. All four teams in Group A end up on eight points but only two of them go through. Meanwhile, all four teams in Group B have zero points, but two of them go through anyway.
As I said, that's an absolute extreme, but look up what happened Westmeath in Minor Hurling this year and you'll see why "cross-play" groups are not a good idea." Scroll up a few posts to my response to Viking 66.
I propose a top 4 (or 3) advancing from combined 8.
Then in the scenario you described, only teams in Group A would advance.
If all teams won their games based on stronger rank, then table would be:
Teams Pts
1,2 8
3,4,5,6 4
7,8 0
Most years, teams 3,4,5,6 play Gal & KK and McD pair.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3575 - 03/10/2026 15:29:48
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I think Leinster should have 2 even groups of 4. Top 2 from both groups into phase 2 Tier 1 group. Lower 2 from both groups into phase 2 Tier 2 group. Phase 1 results carryover to phase 2 where everyone plays 2 more games. 5 group rounds between phase 1 and 2.
Top 2 Tier 1 group into Leinster final. Lower 2 Tier 1 group and top 2 Tier 2 group into playoff semi finals for the last All Ireland qualification spot. Lower 2 Tier 2 group into relegation playoff.
Teams should shuffle up from lower tiers so that Joe Mac stays at 6 teams. If Kerry win Joe Mac, Munster should increase to 6 and Joe Mac drop to 5 teams for one year. When 6th in Munster is relegated, Joe Mac returns to 6 teams. Leinster always remains at 8. Leinster relegation playoff loser granted a reprieve if Kerry are promoted to Munster. Sin é.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 10083 - 03/10/2026 20:40:09
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