National Forum

The Limerick 5 In A Row, Will They Do It?

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Replying To LohansRedHelmet:  "My local club send demand for tickets for Clare Limerick is 3 times their supply.

There is going to be some hunt for tickets over the next week or so for some. Thankfully not for me.

But you make a fair point re the lack of competition in Leinster is killing the attendances. 25000 attended the Leinster final in Croke Park last year. That's over 5000 less than the round robin game between Clare and Limerick."
That's because we weren't in it LRH. Last 2 Leinster finals we were in had 51,482 v Kilkenny in 2019, and 60,032 v Galway in 2017. Noone does bandwagons like we do:-D

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12425 - 04/04/2024 11:04:30    2535538

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Replying To midlands:  "
Replying To Viking66:  "[quote=Oldtourman:  "[quote=Cockney_Cat:  ""...but they [Limerick
have just produced the greatest team of all time"

Is that a fact?"
Well it is a proposition tbat can be argued. They are almost certainly the best team that ever came out of Munster."]For me, just my opinion, it's very hard to compare different eras. But as far as Munster goes the Cork team from 1941 to 1956 won 8 AIs from 10 appearances including a four in a row. The Tipp team from 1958 to 1968 won 5 AIs from 8 appearances, although John Doyle himself won 8 AI medals from 1949 to 1968, while Jimmy won 6 from 1958 to 1971. The current Limerick team has won 5 AIs from 6 appearances. Certainly if they win the 5 in a row Id consider them better than the great Tipp team. To be considered better than the 40s/50s Cork team, or the Kilkenny team who won 8 AIs from 9 appearances from 2006 to 2015, or the Kilkenny team from 1904 to 1913 who win 7 AIs and mightve won one more had they not refused to take part in 1908, they'd want to win a few more AIs and keep appearing in a few more finals. Certainly they are one of the greatest of all time as it is."]I agree it's impossible to meaningfully compare teams (and indeed players) from different eras. The great teams from KK, Cork and Tipp in the past operated in a very different environment - difficult playing conditions, much heavier ball etc. It can be argued that the Munster and Leinster championships that they played in were not as competitive as nowadays. On the other hand, there was no "second chance" until 1997. One bad day and you were gone. The game and the structures have changed so much over the last few decades, but having said that, the current Limerick team, whether they achieve 5-in-a-row or not, will surely go down in history as one of the greatest of all time."]As I said, "certainly they are one of the greatest of all time as it is"

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12425 - 04/04/2024 11:05:41    2535539

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Replying To LohansRedHelmet:  "I really think that a simple restructure could make it a more competitive All Ireland series.

Instread of the runners up in the Joe Mc going through to All Ireland series there should be a playoff between 4th in Munster and 4th in Leinster and the winner progresses. It would stop any talk of unfairness between the provinces and I dont think the runners up of Joe mc should be getting through anyway.

However, I do think the Munster council would oppose it as it might slightly lessen the appeal of the Munster championship and attendences would suffer."
It would've meant we would have had a 2nd chance last year. After getting most of our players back fit for the last round robin game against Kilkenny I'd of fancied our chances against Cork, even more so if the 2 Recks had been fit also for the play-off, which they might have as they were able to play for Oylegate.
Agreed though it would reduce the jeopardy in both provinces.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12425 - 04/04/2024 11:10:32    2535542

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Replying To LohansRedHelmet:  "My local club send demand for tickets for Clare Limerick is 3 times their supply.

There is going to be some hunt for tickets over the next week or so for some. Thankfully not for me.

But you make a fair point re the lack of competition in Leinster is killing the attendances. 25000 attended the Leinster final in Croke Park last year. That's over 5000 less than the round robin game between Clare and Limerick."
Have you ever looked at a map and compared how far Croke Park is from Galway and Kilkenny (notoriously bad followers until AI semi final/final) compared to Clare and Limerick?
A quick look back through the archives pre 2018 says only 19,168 attended Clare and Limerick in 2017. 4 June 2017 16:00 ideal time for a match where were they all then? Munster was just as competitive back then, only thing missing was the bandwagon.

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1161 - 04/04/2024 11:16:24    2535549

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Replying To Viking66:  "Only Limerick and Kilkenny have won any championship silverware since the year we last did Doylerwex"
thats not true tipperary also have won silverware......

munsterchamps (Limerick) - Posts: 1114 - 04/04/2024 11:41:30    2535561

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "Have you ever looked at a map and compared how far Croke Park is from Galway and Kilkenny (notoriously bad followers until AI semi final/final) compared to Clare and Limerick?
A quick look back through the archives pre 2018 says only 19,168 attended Clare and Limerick in 2017. 4 June 2017 16:00 ideal time for a match where were they all then? Munster was just as competitive back then, only thing missing was the bandwagon."
Try and put whatever spin you want on it but 25,000 in Croke Park for a Leinster final is very poor bearing in mind too that any game in Croke Park would attract tourists and Dubliners just for a day out.

LohansRedHelmet (Clare) - Posts: 2528 - 04/04/2024 11:51:21    2535565

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Replying To LohansRedHelmet:  "I really think that a simple restructure could make it a more competitive All Ireland series.

Instread of the runners up in the Joe Mc going through to All Ireland series there should be a playoff between 4th in Munster and 4th in Leinster and the winner progresses. It would stop any talk of unfairness between the provinces and I dont think the runners up of Joe mc should be getting through anyway.

However, I do think the Munster council would oppose it as it might slightly lessen the appeal of the Munster championship and attendences would suffer."
Sorry, but that's nonsense. It wouldn't just lessen the appeal of it, you'd have 20+ matches and only 1 team is eliminated after them? You could draw 1 game and lose the other 4 and qualify on scoring difference?

And no relegation either? Why not have the 5th in Munster play the 5th in Leinster sure. Why knock 1 out?

A better approach is get rid of Walsh Cup etc, reduce the league groupings or abolish altogether, back to knock-out provincial championships played earlier in the year, and then 2 x groups of 5/6 teams with top team qualifying for semi final, 2nd and 3rd in to quarter finals and bottom 2 in each group in relegation semi finals.

Who is the game for? Is it just for some counties to suit themselves, or is there any real interest in growing the game?

Take Offaly say. Theoretically, they could be in the Leinster Championship next year. Then, one of Wexford, Antrim, Dublin, Offaly will probably be relegated. Who does that suit, or what does that do for the game only weaken it?

At the moment, the elite are just hauling the ladder up behind them in hurling and those trying to make progress and grow the game are just thrown a scrap.

I guess viewpoint depends on vision for the game, whether you want it to grow or to just suit the status quo.

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1161 - 04/04/2024 12:16:09    2535575

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Replying To Galway9801:  "Is that a joke?"
It most certainly need not be. Limerick have won once in Ennis since 1945 and this is a good Clare team. 50/50 at best from Lks point of view. Tipperary have a huge history of success in Munster and held us to a draw last year- anything could happen in that fixture.. Munster is just so much more difficult than Leinster, but that is the way we like it.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4356 - 04/04/2024 12:27:07    2535576

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Replying To Viking66:  "That's because we weren't in it LRH. Last 2 Leinster finals we were in had 51,482 v Kilkenny in 2019, and 60,032 v Galway in 2017. Noone does bandwagons like we do:-D"
I would go easy with the bandwagon argument. I have a few relatives and neighbours in my home area,who are deeply involved in the day to day stuff in their own clubs and who seldom attend county games due to the face that they feel they should spend that time with their families or whatever.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4356 - 04/04/2024 12:32:24    2535578

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Replying To Overthebar53:  "It's to win the AI not to qualify for AI series."
Yes but how can you win it if you aren't even in the competition?

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2803 - 04/04/2024 12:39:40    2535584

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "I would go easy with the bandwagon argument. I have a few relatives and neighbours in my home area,who are deeply involved in the day to day stuff in their own clubs and who seldom attend county games due to the face that they feel they should spend that time with their families or whatever."
There are people in my old club who would do everything in the club and would never go to a Wexford match.
Every county has a bandwagon, the size of which depends on the success.
I am good friends with 2 Limerick lads who played underage with them and they said there are people in their circles now going to Limerick games who never would have gone to any match pre 2018. But that's the nature of it, enjoy it I say.

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1742 - 04/04/2024 12:52:08    2535588

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Replying To munsterchamps:  "thats not true tipperary also have won silverware......"
Not since the year we won Leinster. That was the last year they won anything.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12425 - 04/04/2024 13:07:41    2535592

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "I would go easy with the bandwagon argument. I have a few relatives and neighbours in my home area,who are deeply involved in the day to day stuff in their own clubs and who seldom attend county games due to the face that they feel they should spend that time with their families or whatever."
True too. But I know lads who would struggle to name 5 current Wexford players whose only 3 intercounty games attended in the last 15 years were the 2 Leinster finals and the AISF.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12425 - 04/04/2024 13:10:44    2535593

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "Sorry, but that's nonsense. It wouldn't just lessen the appeal of it, you'd have 20+ matches and only 1 team is eliminated after them? You could draw 1 game and lose the other 4 and qualify on scoring difference?

And no relegation either? Why not have the 5th in Munster play the 5th in Leinster sure. Why knock 1 out?

A better approach is get rid of Walsh Cup etc, reduce the league groupings or abolish altogether, back to knock-out provincial championships played earlier in the year, and then 2 x groups of 5/6 teams with top team qualifying for semi final, 2nd and 3rd in to quarter finals and bottom 2 in each group in relegation semi finals.

Who is the game for? Is it just for some counties to suit themselves, or is there any real interest in growing the game?

Take Offaly say. Theoretically, they could be in the Leinster Championship next year. Then, one of Wexford, Antrim, Dublin, Offaly will probably be relegated. Who does that suit, or what does that do for the game only weaken it?

At the moment, the elite are just hauling the ladder up behind them in hurling and those trying to make progress and grow the game are just thrown a scrap.

I guess viewpoint depends on vision for the game, whether you want it to grow or to just suit the status quo."
I am assuming you are referring to me saying that allowing the 4th playoff would slightly lessen the appeal of Munster is nonsense. Why? The reason Munster has such an attraction and huge gate numbers when compared to leinster is primarily due to the competive nature of it and how hard it is to come out of it. If you gave 4th an opportunity it would in fact reduce the competitive nature of it. How is that nonsense?

LohansRedHelmet (Clare) - Posts: 2528 - 04/04/2024 15:04:27    2535623

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "Have you ever looked at a map and compared how far Croke Park is from Galway and Kilkenny (notoriously bad followers until AI semi final/final) compared to Clare and Limerick?
A quick look back through the archives pre 2018 says only 19,168 attended Clare and Limerick in 2017. 4 June 2017 16:00 ideal time for a match where were they all then? Munster was just as competitive back then, only thing missing was the bandwagon."
Your actually making my point for me.

Munster was not as competive back then as pre the round robin all teams would get a shot into the All Ireland series. The Round Robin has created a savage intensity in the Munster championship as you have 5 teams that can all play to a high level (even if Waterford arent showing it of late) and 3 spots or your out.

In 2017, if you lost the first round of Munster you were through to the qualifiers.

My point is simple. The competive dog eat dog nature of the Munster championship is unrivalled and reflected in crowd numbers. The same competitive nature is not at play in Leinster and this too is also reflected in crowd numbers. This is not a dig at any Leinster county, but a fact that it is not as competitive. I actually cant believe anyone would argue otherwise.

LohansRedHelmet (Clare) - Posts: 2528 - 04/04/2024 15:10:44    2535628

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Replying To LohansRedHelmet:  "Your actually making my point for me.

Munster was not as competive back then as pre the round robin all teams would get a shot into the All Ireland series. The Round Robin has created a savage intensity in the Munster championship as you have 5 teams that can all play to a high level (even if Waterford arent showing it of late) and 3 spots or your out.

In 2017, if you lost the first round of Munster you were through to the qualifiers.

My point is simple. The competive dog eat dog nature of the Munster championship is unrivalled and reflected in crowd numbers. The same competitive nature is not at play in Leinster and this too is also reflected in crowd numbers. This is not a dig at any Leinster county, but a fact that it is not as competitive. I actually cant believe anyone would argue otherwise."
The only 2 Munster Round Robins that were competitive up til the last round were last year and 2019. Waterford have only won 2 games total in 4 Round Robins, and outside of 2019 Tipp have only won 1. Munster is still a great championship though!

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12425 - 04/04/2024 16:11:24    2535653

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "Sorry, but that's nonsense. It wouldn't just lessen the appeal of it, you'd have 20+ matches and only 1 team is eliminated after them? You could draw 1 game and lose the other 4 and qualify on scoring difference?

And no relegation either? Why not have the 5th in Munster play the 5th in Leinster sure. Why knock 1 out?

A better approach is get rid of Walsh Cup etc, reduce the league groupings or abolish altogether, back to knock-out provincial championships played earlier in the year, and then 2 x groups of 5/6 teams with top team qualifying for semi final, 2nd and 3rd in to quarter finals and bottom 2 in each group in relegation semi finals.

Who is the game for? Is it just for some counties to suit themselves, or is there any real interest in growing the game?

Take Offaly say. Theoretically, they could be in the Leinster Championship next year. Then, one of Wexford, Antrim, Dublin, Offaly will probably be relegated. Who does that suit, or what does that do for the game only weaken it?

At the moment, the elite are just hauling the ladder up behind them in hurling and those trying to make progress and grow the game are just thrown a scrap.

I guess viewpoint depends on vision for the game, whether you want it to grow or to just suit the status quo."
The all Ireland is to decide who the best team is, not to grow the game. And I say that as someone who would love to see hurling grow.

You seem to be suggesting that the weaker counties are trying hard to grow the game and the stronger ones are stopping them. How is this happening exactly? Genuine question, as I don't know how these things work.

Take offaly for example, from 1994 - 2000 they reached 4 all Ireland finals in 7 years, winning two of them, by 2010 they were pretty much irrelevant in the competition. Is that Tipp /kilkennys fault? Is it the GAAs fault?

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1775 - 07/04/2024 09:57:31    2536152

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Replying To Viking66:  "
Replying To midlands:  "[quote=Viking66:  "[quote=Oldtourman:  "[quote=Cockney_Cat:  ""...but they [Limerick
have just produced the greatest team of all time"

Is that a fact?"
Well it is a proposition tbat can be argued. They are almost certainly the best team that ever came out of Munster."]For me, just my opinion, it's very hard to compare different eras. But as far as Munster goes the Cork team from 1941 to 1956 won 8 AIs from 10 appearances including a four in a row. The Tipp team from 1958 to 1968 won 5 AIs from 8 appearances, although John Doyle himself won 8 AI medals from 1949 to 1968, while Jimmy won 6 from 1958 to 1971. The current Limerick team has won 5 AIs from 6 appearances. Certainly if they win the 5 in a row Id consider them better than the great Tipp team. To be considered better than the 40s/50s Cork team, or the Kilkenny team who won 8 AIs from 9 appearances from 2006 to 2015, or the Kilkenny team from 1904 to 1913 who win 7 AIs and mightve won one more had they not refused to take part in 1908, they'd want to win a few more AIs and keep appearing in a few more finals. Certainly they are one of the greatest of all time as it is."]I agree it's impossible to meaningfully compare teams (and indeed players) from different eras. The great teams from KK, Cork and Tipp in the past operated in a very different environment - difficult playing conditions, much heavier ball etc. It can be argued that the Munster and Leinster championships that they played in were not as competitive as nowadays. On the other hand, there was no "second chance" until 1997. One bad day and you were gone. The game and the structures have changed so much over the last few decades, but having said that, the current Limerick team, whether they achieve 5-in-a-row or not, will surely go down in history as one of the greatest of all time."]As I said, "certainly they are one of the greatest of all time as it is""]No point at all mentioning the Cork41 to 54, as only one 41 player was there even by 52 and the same with Tipp in 58 and 71. Two different teams in each case. You might as well say Limerick 18 to 40 were the same team which would be a nonsense.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4356 - 07/04/2024 13:28:45    2536188

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "
Replying To Viking66:  "[quote=midlands:  "[quote=Viking66:  "[quote=Oldtourman:  "[quote=Cockney_Cat:  ""...but they [Limerick
have just produced the greatest team of all time"

Is that a fact?"
Well it is a proposition tbat can be argued. They are almost certainly the best team that ever came out of Munster."]For me, just my opinion, it's very hard to compare different eras. But as far as Munster goes the Cork team from 1941 to 1956 won 8 AIs from 10 appearances including a four in a row. The Tipp team from 1958 to 1968 won 5 AIs from 8 appearances, although John Doyle himself won 8 AI medals from 1949 to 1968, while Jimmy won 6 from 1958 to 1971. The current Limerick team has won 5 AIs from 6 appearances. Certainly if they win the 5 in a row Id consider them better than the great Tipp team. To be considered better than the 40s/50s Cork team, or the Kilkenny team who won 8 AIs from 9 appearances from 2006 to 2015, or the Kilkenny team from 1904 to 1913 who win 7 AIs and mightve won one more had they not refused to take part in 1908, they'd want to win a few more AIs and keep appearing in a few more finals. Certainly they are one of the greatest of all time as it is."]I agree it's impossible to meaningfully compare teams (and indeed players) from different eras. The great teams from KK, Cork and Tipp in the past operated in a very different environment - difficult playing conditions, much heavier ball etc. It can be argued that the Munster and Leinster championships that they played in were not as competitive as nowadays. On the other hand, there was no "second chance" until 1997. One bad day and you were gone. The game and the structures have changed so much over the last few decades, but having said that, the current Limerick team, whether they achieve 5-in-a-row or not, will surely go down in history as one of the greatest of all time."]As I said, "certainly they are one of the greatest of all time as it is""]No point at all mentioning the Cork41 to 54, as only one 41 player was there even by 52 and the same with Tipp in 58 and 71. Two different teams in each case. You might as well say Limerick 18 to 40 were the same team which would be a nonsense."]Was Christy the only player to play in 41 and 56? Just say the Cork team of the 30s so. And the Tipp team of the 60s. 2 great teams all the same. It could be argued that Limerick have been helped by how poor Tipp, Waterford and Cork have been since 2019.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12425 - 07/04/2024 16:35:57    2536214

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Replying To Viking66:  "
Replying To Oldtourman:  "[quote=Viking66:  "[quote=midlands:  "[quote=Viking66:  "[quote=Oldtourman:  "[quote=Cockney_Cat:  ""...but they [Limerick
have just produced the greatest team of all time"

Is that a fact?"
Well it is a proposition tbat can be argued. They are almost certainly the best team that ever came out of Munster."]For me, just my opinion, it's very hard to compare different eras. But as far as Munster goes the Cork team from 1941 to 1956 won 8 AIs from 10 appearances including a four in a row. The Tipp team from 1958 to 1968 won 5 AIs from 8 appearances, although John Doyle himself won 8 AI medals from 1949 to 1968, while Jimmy won 6 from 1958 to 1971. The current Limerick team has won 5 AIs from 6 appearances. Certainly if they win the 5 in a row Id consider them better than the great Tipp team. To be considered better than the 40s/50s Cork team, or the Kilkenny team who won 8 AIs from 9 appearances from 2006 to 2015, or the Kilkenny team from 1904 to 1913 who win 7 AIs and mightve won one more had they not refused to take part in 1908, they'd want to win a few more AIs and keep appearing in a few more finals. Certainly they are one of the greatest of all time as it is."]I agree it's impossible to meaningfully compare teams (and indeed players) from different eras. The great teams from KK, Cork and Tipp in the past operated in a very different environment - difficult playing conditions, much heavier ball etc. It can be argued that the Munster and Leinster championships that they played in were not as competitive as nowadays. On the other hand, there was no "second chance" until 1997. One bad day and you were gone. The game and the structures have changed so much over the last few decades, but having said that, the current Limerick team, whether they achieve 5-in-a-row or not, will surely go down in history as one of the greatest of all time."]As I said, "certainly they are one of the greatest of all time as it is""]No point at all mentioning the Cork41 to 54, as only one 41 player was there even by 52 and the same with Tipp in 58 and 71. Two different teams in each case. You might as well say Limerick 18 to 40 were the same team which would be a nonsense."]Was Christy the only player to play in 41 and 56? Just say the Cork team of the 30s so. And the Tipp team of the 60s. 2 great teams all the same. It could be argued that Limerick have been helped by how poor Tipp, Waterford and Cork have been since 2019."]In Round Robins.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12425 - 07/04/2024 18:12:50    2536263

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