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Football Format Changes Discussion

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Replying To omahant:  "One of his points is to have four windows - 1) inter-county league; 2) 4-week club championships; 3) 13-week inter-county AIC; and 4) 6-week club Prov & AIC.

He says inter-county players should play more than four games with their clubs. In my opinion, as inter-county players are playing too many combined matches, perhaps the inter-county footprint needs to be reduced."
The GPA are probably happy with the current arrangement now that the January preseason competitions are dropped. Croke Park then are happy to have the Oasis money in August. I suppose the end of January to the end of July is going to be the inter county window for the foreseeable.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8287 - 11/11/2024 20:18:30    2579281

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Replying To omahant:  "I think Brian's idea is crisper - to the extent, I understand it - next year's AI Sam 16 field is derived from the following ranked waterfall:

- Prior Yr Top 3 in each of 4 AIC groups (12 berths)
- Prior Year Tailteann Cup Champ (13th berth)
- Prior Year Provincial Champs [maybe 14th-17th berths, but most likely less, as many have qualified via 'Top 3s' (say, only 14th berth is filled)

- Prior Year Prov Losing Finalists (as these are now ranked 15th-17th, prior year league ranking among the three determines which two earn the remaining berths).

Question for Brian - do I have that right? - e.g. "current year" Prov Champs are only playing for a "next year" AIC berth, so the "AIC Sam 16" are all known at the start of the season based on "prior year" performance?

Separately, with Top 3s having relevance for retention of future Sam berths, the Prelim QFs could be disbanded - straight to KO QFs instead."]I think championship based promotion and relegation is needed.

I would keep the current year link to the provincial championships and I'd play the provincial championship along side the league matches. This would give us our remaining 4 teams.

The Championship would have:

- 12 best teams from last year (i.e. top 3 in each group) - plus 4 more teams taken as follows:

1 - Prior year Tailteann cup winner
2 - This years provincial winners (we could include runners up here if we're feeling more traditional towards the provincial championships) - with up to 3 unqualified teams included; if there are more qualified include the top 3 based off the league standings - I feel it would be unlikely we would get more than 3 winners anyway; but it could happen so we should cover the eventuality by rule.
3 - If more places are available - take the best placed unqualified team(s) from the league standings

Then you have 16 teams - 4 groups of 4 again; no need to have the preliminary 1/4 finals as finishing bottom has a big cost.

4 groups of 5 could work on this basis either - although I don't think the depth is there for 20 teams

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 356 - 12/11/2024 12:10:46    2579345

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Replying To brianb:  "
Replying To omahant:  "I think Brian's idea is crisper - to the extent, I understand it - next year's AI Sam 16 field is derived from the following ranked waterfall:

- Prior Yr Top 3 in each of 4 AIC groups (12 berths)
- Prior Year Tailteann Cup Champ (13th berth)
- Prior Year Provincial Champs [maybe 14th-17th berths, but most likely less, as many have qualified via 'Top 3s' (say, only 14th berth is filled)

- Prior Year Prov Losing Finalists (as these are now ranked 15th-17th, prior year league ranking among the three determines which two earn the remaining berths).

Question for Brian - do I have that right? - e.g. "current year" Prov Champs are only playing for a "next year" AIC berth, so the "AIC Sam 16" are all known at the start of the season based on "prior year" performance?

Separately, with Top 3s having relevance for retention of future Sam berths, the Prelim QFs could be disbanded - straight to KO QFs instead."
I think championship based promotion and relegation is needed.

I would keep the current year link to the provincial championships and I'd play the provincial championship along side the league matches. This would give us our remaining 4 teams.

The Championship would have:

- 12 best teams from last year (i.e. top 3 in each group) - plus 4 more teams taken as follows:

1 - Prior year Tailteann cup winner
2 - This years provincial winners (we could include runners up here if we're feeling more traditional towards the provincial championships) - with up to 3 unqualified teams included; if there are more qualified include the top 3 based off the league standings - I feel it would be unlikely we would get more than 3 winners anyway; but it could happen so we should cover the eventuality by rule.
3 - If more places are available - take the best placed unqualified team(s) from the league standings

Then you have 16 teams - 4 groups of 4 again; no need to have the preliminary 1/4 finals as finishing bottom has a big cost.

4 groups of 5 could work on this basis either - although I don't think the depth is there for 20 teams"]I agree there isn't sufficient depth for 20 teams, although a 'Tailteann 12' below them would seem ideal.

How about my Swiss System/URC-style AI League-Championship below?

- Two league tiers of 16
- Draw '4 groups of 4' in each before the season
- Play 12 of 15 'part round robins' (avoid own group)
- Prov KO ties double as league ties (own tier, none own group); crossover ties (T1vT2) are stand alone
- Teams ranked 1-16 & 17-32 based on 16-team tables
- Teams placed 1 & 17 win 'League 1' & 'League 2'
- Three graded AICs - Sam, Shield & Plate /Tailteann)
- Top 8 to AI Sam AFL-style playoffs; 9-20 to AI Shield KO; and 21-28 to AI Plate KO (or Tailteann Cup, 29-32 do not advance)
- Prov Champs advance based on League placing (no Sam berth guarantee)
- 'Shield QF 8' earn/retain following year Tier 1 status.

Thoughts?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2891 - 12/11/2024 14:41:24    2579372

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Replying to omahant (USA) - reposting as the formatting was messed up

How about my Swiss System/URC-style AI League-Championship below?

- Two league tiers of 16
- Draw '4 groups of 4' in each before the season
- Play 12 of 15 'part round robins' (avoid own group)
- Prov KO ties double as league ties (own tier, none own group); crossover ties (T1vT2) are stand alone
- Teams ranked 1-16 & 17-32 based on 16-team tables
- Teams placed 1 & 17 win 'League 1' & 'League 2'
- Three graded AICs - Sam, Shield & Plate /Tailteann)
- Top 8 to AI Sam AFL-style playoffs; 9-20 to AI Shield KO; and 21-28 to AI Plate KO (or Tailteann Cup, 29-32 do not advance)
- Prov Champs advance based on League placing (no Sam berth guarantee)
- 'Shield QF 8' earn/retain following year Tier 1 status.


If I understand it right - its a Swiss-style league that leads to an end of year play-off bonanza. It tries to unify both the Provincial matches and League to bring it all into a single competition. That can have some merit. I'm quite traditional in a sense; I think although the Provincial Championships can be lop-sided; they still offer something and I wouldn't be too quick to remove them as having consequence. The league is already quite a good competition in its own right. I don't see the need to mess with that too much either.

I do think the Swiss style setup would have some merit in Football and certainly could be used in place of the All Ireland groups we have at present.

I suppose - ultimately we want to get to All Ireland 1/4 finals where teams have been well tested through meaningful games with more at stake as the year rolls on. Having more at stake as the year rolls on is where we fall down right now; results in the League matter with regards to getting into the championship; then the championship lulls as we go though the provincial games before really getting going again in R3 of the group stage.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 356 - 12/11/2024 16:38:45    2579392

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Replying To brianb:  "Replying to omahant (USA) - reposting as the formatting was messed up

How about my Swiss System/URC-style AI League-Championship below?

- Two league tiers of 16
- Draw '4 groups of 4' in each before the season
- Play 12 of 15 'part round robins' (avoid own group)
- Prov KO ties double as league ties (own tier, none own group); crossover ties (T1vT2) are stand alone
- Teams ranked 1-16 & 17-32 based on 16-team tables
- Teams placed 1 & 17 win 'League 1' & 'League 2'
- Three graded AICs - Sam, Shield & Plate /Tailteann)
- Top 8 to AI Sam AFL-style playoffs; 9-20 to AI Shield KO; and 21-28 to AI Plate KO (or Tailteann Cup, 29-32 do not advance)
- Prov Champs advance based on League placing (no Sam berth guarantee)
- 'Shield QF 8' earn/retain following year Tier 1 status.


If I understand it right - its a Swiss-style league that leads to an end of year play-off bonanza. It tries to unify both the Provincial matches and League to bring it all into a single competition. That can have some merit. I'm quite traditional in a sense; I think although the Provincial Championships can be lop-sided; they still offer something and I wouldn't be too quick to remove them as having consequence. The league is already quite a good competition in its own right. I don't see the need to mess with that too much either.

I do think the Swiss style setup would have some merit in Football and certainly could be used in place of the All Ireland groups we have at present.

I suppose - ultimately we want to get to All Ireland 1/4 finals where teams have been well tested through meaningful games with more at stake as the year rolls on. Having more at stake as the year rolls on is where we fall down right now; results in the League matter with regards to getting into the championship; then the championship lulls as we go though the provincial games before really getting going again in R3 of the group stage."
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 348 - 12/11/2024 16:38:45

Yes Brian, you understand my idea well - one overall competition but with retention of traditional Prov SFCs and League as subsets (like rugby's triple crown subset counting towards the Six Nations Championship). I think the Prov SFCs are more valuable if they award match points (like hurling). I toyed with directly advancing Prov Champs to the 'Sam 8' - but I feel on balance - it would be best for League integrity to strive for match points (incl Prov ties) throughout the season.

Perhaps it would be best to play Prov Prelim & QF rounds very early (e.g. season first two rounds), to ensure each 'then-known' Prov SF quartet is split/drawn across different groups when making the draw. As teams 'avoid own group' to reduce game count to 12 (from a too-much 15), all ties, incl Prov ones, are two-group crossover. To retain prestige, Prov SFs & Finals could be scheduled in mid- to late- season,

12 games per team compares well with the current variable 11-15 match count - i.e. League (7-8), Prov (1-4) and Group (3).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2891 - 12/11/2024 19:25:46    2579405

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Clare are in Division 3 next year. Tipperary and Waterford are in Division 4. Clare will have to beat Tipperary or Waterford to qualify for the All-Ireland series. The bar for qualification is low.
All provinces regardless of seeding or not can only produce one winner. It would nearly be better if provincial winners only qualified through the provinces.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8287 - 12/11/2024 20:32:41    2579416

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Clare are in Division 3 next year. Tipperary and Waterford are in Division 4. Clare will have to beat Tipperary or Waterford to qualify for the All-Ireland series. The bar for qualification is low.
All provinces regardless of seeding or not can only produce one winner. It would nearly be better if provincial winners only qualified through the provinces."
Agree totally Leg.
Last years Sam and TC winners, Provincial Champions and then go down the League till you get 16.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1955 - 12/11/2024 21:06:55    2579422

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Clare are in Division 3 next year. Tipperary and Waterford are in Division 4. Clare will have to beat Tipperary or Waterford to qualify for the All-Ireland series. The bar for qualification is low.
All provinces regardless of seeding or not can only produce one winner. It would nearly be better if provincial winners only qualified through the provinces."
I agree - I'd limit it to Provincial Champions and I would change it. Having said that I don't think it is a massive issue. I think we're generally talking about who finishes 3rd or 4th in their group versus a team who can have a real chance of winning the Tailteann cup. In truth it probably affects the Tailteann cup more than the Sam Maguire.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 356 - 13/11/2024 10:49:17    2579479

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Clare are in Division 3 next year. Tipperary and Waterford are in Division 4. Clare will have to beat Tipperary or Waterford to qualify for the All-Ireland series. The bar for qualification is low.
All provinces regardless of seeding or not can only produce one winner. It would nearly be better if provincial winners only qualified through the provinces."
So Kerry & Dubs get 'Last 4' byes?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2891 - 13/11/2024 13:53:37    2579516

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Ok here's a suggestion. Taking inspiration from the hurling format but removing the provincial element.

Group 1A and 1B, two groups of 5. The 10 most elite teams together and Group 2 made up of the six next best teams.

For example.

Group 1A. Armagh, Kerry, Dublin, Derry, Roscommon
Group 1B. Galway Donegal, Mayo, Tyrone, Monaghan
Group 2. Louth, Cork, Cavan, Meath, Down, Westmeath.

Playoff 1. Winner of 1A V Runner up 1B and winner 1B V runner up 1A for a place in the All Ireland semi.

Playoff 2. 3rd place in 1A and 1B V 1st and 2nd in Group 2 to playoff

Playoff 3. Losers of PO1 v winners of PO2.

Semi.

Final

Elites teams playing each other with real jeopardy like the current hurling provincial round robins. Chasing pack get a group of their own and chance to compete for Sam. Remains 16 teams in a round robin as per current system.

Tailteann Cup could adopt same format or keep current 4x4 groups.

Current system of deciding who plays in what can be kept or an alternative methods. Perhaps Group 2 weakest team getting relegated to the TC and being replaced by the TC winner. Group 2 top two could perhaps replace bottom of 1A and 1B also.

trimmer (Meath) - Posts: 536 - 13/11/2024 16:18:35    2579545

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Replying To omahant:  "So Kerry & Dubs get 'Last 4' byes?"
Sorry, apologies - I misinterpreted Legendz post - Prov Champs to a 'Last 16' - so it looks fine.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2891 - 13/11/2024 16:22:20    2579547

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Replying To brianb:  "I agree - I'd limit it to Provincial Champions and I would change it. Having said that I don't think it is a massive issue. I think we're generally talking about who finishes 3rd or 4th in their group versus a team who can have a real chance of winning the Tailteann cup. In truth it probably affects the Tailteann cup more than the Sam Maguire."
Agreed.
One argument from GAA HQ is that they want to reduce the gap between provincial knockout and the start of the Tailteann Cup. With provincial finalists qualifying, the Tailteann Cup can start earlier. I can see their point but it weakens the All-Ireland and is setting the lower qualification bar.
Provincial championships already offer seeding for the All-Ireland championships. The Allianz Leagues come before the provincial championships. A logical solution would seed provincial draws on league. If Clare can get above Cork league ranking, they'll be fully deserving of seed 2 in Munster.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8287 - 13/11/2024 18:29:32    2579560

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trimmer (Meath) - Posts: 536 - 13/11/2024 16:18

Overall ok, BUT....Teams 11 & 12 make the 'Playoff 8' and Team 7 loses out.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2891 - 13/11/2024 23:58:56    2579585

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The group stages of the football championship are a complete bore with little or no interest in them… Attendance figures for these games will continue to fall… the Championship only reaches a point of interest when games are of a knockout nature…

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 3029 - 14/11/2024 07:10:11    2579588

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "The group stages of the football championship are a complete bore with little or no interest in them… Attendance figures for these games will continue to fall… the Championship only reaches a point of interest when games are of a knockout nature…"
Does this satisfy your KO football desire? -

Below, I offer my "twist" on the single-tier, 32-team "Pre-2018 SFC Qualifiers" to counter Provincial imbalance. This could be played concurrently with the Tailteann Cup, as lower-ranked teams drop out of Tier 1.
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After initial Provincial Preliminary & QF Rds, the remainder of the AI SFC could be structured as follows:

✓ Prov SF 16 (2nd chance after loss in SF 16, F 8 or new 'Champs 4' round)
+ Rd 1 Qual 16 (3rd chance after loss in 'Rd 1' only, then KO starting in Rd 2)

✓ Prov F 8
+ Rd 2 Qual 16 (8 Prov SF & 8 Rd 1 "losers", open draw)

✓ Prov 'Champs 4' Playoff Rd
+ Rd 3 Qual 20 (4 Prov F losers + 16 Rds 1&2 winners)

✓ Rd 4 Qual 12 (2 Prov Champ losers + 10 Rd 3 winners)

✓ AI QFs (2 unbeaten Prov Champs + 6 Rd 4 winners)
✓ SFs
✓ F

Tailteann Cup KO 12 (lowest-ranked 12 of 18 Qual Rds 2&3 losers) starting concurrently with AIC Qual Rd 4
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Subject to non-repeat pairings, where possible:

Seeded Draw (Front Door):
All Prov Rds (Preliminary Rd, QFs, SFs & Champs Rd); and AI QFs & SFs.

Open Draw (Back Door):
All Qual Rds (1, 2, 3 & 4)
and Tailteann Cup.
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So, after Provincial QFs (win, lose or bye) and Qualifiers Rd 1 (win, lose or n/a), any of the 32 teams are required to win 6 games for the AI title:

Prov SF or Qual Rd 2
Prov F or Qual Rd 3
Champs Playoff or Rd 4
AIC QF
SF
F.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2891 - 14/11/2024 14:32:18    2579615

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "The group stages of the football championship are a complete bore with little or no interest in them… Attendance figures for these games will continue to fall… the Championship only reaches a point of interest when games are of a knockout nature…"
The football group stage is terrible. I think they would have been scrapped for next year but the football rule changes are taking priority.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8287 - 14/11/2024 17:06:41    2579629

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Replying To omahant:  "Does this satisfy your KO football desire? -

Below, I offer my "twist" on the single-tier, 32-team "Pre-2018 SFC Qualifiers" to counter Provincial imbalance. This could be played concurrently with the Tailteann Cup, as lower-ranked teams drop out of Tier 1.
------

After initial Provincial Preliminary & QF Rds, the remainder of the AI SFC could be structured as follows:

✓ Prov SF 16 (2nd chance after loss in SF 16, F 8 or new 'Champs 4' round)
+ Rd 1 Qual 16 (3rd chance after loss in 'Rd 1' only, then KO starting in Rd 2)

✓ Prov F 8
+ Rd 2 Qual 16 (8 Prov SF & 8 Rd 1 "losers", open draw)

✓ Prov 'Champs 4' Playoff Rd
+ Rd 3 Qual 20 (4 Prov F losers + 16 Rds 1&2 winners)

✓ Rd 4 Qual 12 (2 Prov Champ losers + 10 Rd 3 winners)

✓ AI QFs (2 unbeaten Prov Champs + 6 Rd 4 winners)
✓ SFs
✓ F

Tailteann Cup KO 12 (lowest-ranked 12 of 18 Qual Rds 2&3 losers) starting concurrently with AIC Qual Rd 4
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Subject to non-repeat pairings, where possible:

Seeded Draw (Front Door):
All Prov Rds (Preliminary Rd, QFs, SFs & Champs Rd); and AI QFs & SFs.

Open Draw (Back Door):
All Qual Rds (1, 2, 3 & 4)
and Tailteann Cup.
------

So, after Provincial QFs (win, lose or bye) and Qualifiers Rd 1 (win, lose or n/a), any of the 32 teams are required to win 6 games for the AI title:

Prov SF or Qual Rd 2
Prov F or Qual Rd 3
Champs Playoff or Rd 4
AIC QF
SF
F."
Fairly straightforward. I'd go with that!

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1466 - 14/11/2024 23:24:49    2579656

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The football group stage is terrible. I think they would have been scrapped for next year but the football rule changes are taking priority."
I don't think the idea of a group is wrong, it's the competition in it. If a team were relegated from the top tier for finishing bottom of their group it would fix a lot. Top 2 into 1/4 finals. Third team summer over and bottom team relegated.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 356 - 15/11/2024 09:04:50    2579675

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Replying To brianb:  "I don't think the idea of a group is wrong, it's the competition in it. If a team were relegated from the top tier for finishing bottom of their group it would fix a lot. Top 2 into 1/4 finals. Third team summer over and bottom team relegated."
Groups work when there's "jeopardy" for finishing 3rd or 4th as in relegation or relegation playoffs.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1955 - 15/11/2024 11:04:33    2579704

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Replying To brianb:  "I don't think the idea of a group is wrong, it's the competition in it. If a team were relegated from the top tier for finishing bottom of their group it would fix a lot. Top 2 into 1/4 finals. Third team summer over and bottom team relegated."
I agree - top 2s to KO, 3rds stay up and 4ths go down.

I did something similar with my Swiss System/URC-style Top 16 - 1st 4 to Sam 'double chance' Prelim SFs, 2nd 4 to Sam KO Prelim QFs, 3rd 4 to Shield KO QFs (and 'stay up') and 4th 4 to Shield KO Prelim QFs (doubles as Promotion/Relegation Playoffs, 4 winners 'go or stay up').

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2891 - 15/11/2024 13:31:01    2579736

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