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Football Format Changes Discussion

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The open provincial draw is damaging provincial championships but provincial councils persist with it!
Lopsided provincial draws and one sided provincial finals don't help the cause of retaining provincial championships in their current place in the football calendar.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 27/09/2024 11:20:14    2572072

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The open provincial draw is damaging provincial championships but provincial councils persist with it!
Lopsided provincial draws and one sided provincial finals don't help the cause of retaining provincial championships in their current place in the football calendar."
They're being reduced in status, for winners anyway, in the system proposed for 2026.
The 8 FINALISTS will be in 1 pot and all get a home game in Round 1.
So Limerick beat Waterford and are equal in status to say Donegal who beat Monaghan, Tyrone, Derry and Armagh to win Ulster.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1950 - 27/09/2024 12:32:33    2572081

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "They're being reduced in status, for winners anyway, in the system proposed for 2026.
The 8 FINALISTS will be in 1 pot and all get a home game in Round 1.
So Limerick beat Waterford and are equal in status to say Donegal who beat Monaghan, Tyrone, Derry and Armagh to win Ulster."
A baffling decision! But no surprise, nothing but consistent for baffling decisions!
The logical approach would be provincial winners drawn against Seed 4 and provincial runners-up drawn against Seed 3.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 27/09/2024 12:55:16    2572087

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Replying To Bdonegal1991:  "Read again. Last 16 would be based off the league positioning. Then QF back to open draw.
You don't think it would provide incentive. Look at this year for example, Donegal and Armagh top of division 2 you don't think there be any value for a division 1 teams to avoid these two in first knockout round??"
OK, there is some value in getting seeded for ONE round. My main point is that with a level playing field unseeded Last 8, a good league effort is no longer rewarded. Maybe half of Tier 1 league teams advancing to Sam provides a sufficient balance between incentive and jeopardy.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2886 - 27/09/2024 19:05:17    2572139

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The Jarlath Burns Championship format is being used in Kerry this year. The Round 1 winners met in Round 2A. The Round 1 losers met in Round 2B. Round 3 is being played out this weekend between the Round 2A losers and Round 2B winners.
The GAA will want clear messaging around the winners round and losers round. Jarlath Burns is in Australia talking to the AFL. For the AFL playoffs, they have "Qualifying Finals" and "Elimination Finals".

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 29/09/2024 07:54:31    2572303

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The Jarlath Burns Championship format is being used in Kerry this year. The Round 1 winners met in Round 2A. The Round 1 losers met in Round 2B. Round 3 is being played out this weekend between the Round 2A losers and Round 2B winners.
The GAA will want clear messaging around the winners round and losers round. Jarlath Burns is in Australia talking to the AFL. For the AFL playoffs, they have "Qualifying Finals" and "Elimination Finals"."
Round 2A = Qualifying Round
Round 2B = Elimination Round
Round 3= Extra Qualifying Round??

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1950 - 29/09/2024 14:18:09    2572347

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Round 2A = Qualifying Round
Round 2B = Elimination Round
Round 3= Extra Qualifying Round??"
ROUND 1--------2nd chance round [8 games]

ROUND 2A----- 2nd chance round [4 games]

ROUND 2B----- Elimination round [4 games]

ROUND 3------ Elimination round [4 games]= The current structure Preliminary Quarter Finals.

In summary in Round 1 and Round 2 there are 16 games. Only 4 are pure K.O games. In the other 12 the loser has a second chance. So it more or less mirrors the current group stage set up. The only real difference being that teams are guaranteed 2 games as opposed to being guaranteed 3 games in the current group stage structure.

edu (Mayo) - Posts: 62 - 29/09/2024 17:08:40    2572363

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The Jarlath Burns Championship format is being used in Kerry this year. The Round 1 winners met in Round 2A. The Round 1 losers met in Round 2B. Round 3 is being played out this weekend between the Round 2A losers and Round 2B winners.
The GAA will want clear messaging around the winners round and losers round. Jarlath Burns is in Australia talking to the AFL. For the AFL playoffs, they have "Qualifying Finals" and "Elimination Finals"."
Those "Qualifying Finals" and "Elimination Finals" are very similar to the "AI SHC Last 8" (QFs like Prov Finals and EFs like Prelim Quarter-Finals).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2886 - 29/09/2024 17:33:25    2572367

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Round 2A = Qualifying Round
Round 2B = Elimination Round
Round 3= Extra Qualifying Round??"
Rd 3 is what you and I would call 'Prelim Quarter Finals" (last 12), what the AFL calls " Semi Finals", despite being "Last 6" ties (confusing).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2886 - 29/09/2024 17:38:09    2572368

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Round 2A = Qualifying Round
Round 2B = Elimination Round
Round 3= Extra Qualifying Round??"
Round 1
Round 2 for Round 1 winners and Repechage for Round 1 losers. (Olympic influence, the wider public should be able to relate to the Repechage meaning.)
Preliminary Quarter-finals for Round 2 losers and Repechage winners.
Quarter-finals
Semi-finals
Final

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 29/09/2024 19:33:54    2572400

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Your ordinary Joe Soap seems to understand the Champions League Swiss Model better than the old Christy Ring double elimination format. Rounds 2A and Rounds 2B are a bit confusing for the ordinary Joe Soap. Are UEFA just better at marketing their new format and getting the explanations out there?

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 01/10/2024 20:22:08    2572730

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Your ordinary Joe Soap seems to understand the Champions League Swiss Model better than the old Christy Ring double elimination format. Rounds 2A and Rounds 2B are a bit confusing for the ordinary Joe Soap. Are UEFA just better at marketing their new format and getting the explanations out there?"
UEFA has done a good job with repetitively explaining its new system. I'm not convinced Joe Soap gets it.

If 9 pts earns 24th place and 15 pts earns 8th place - are these cut offs enough to keep the new UCL interesting?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2886 - 02/10/2024 00:22:29    2572743

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Your ordinary Joe Soap seems to understand the Champions League Swiss Model better than the old Christy Ring double elimination format. Rounds 2A and Rounds 2B are a bit confusing for the ordinary Joe Soap. Are UEFA just better at marketing their new format and getting the explanations out there?"
The new champions League system could be a taylormade way for football to setup. You could play matches where a match could be both a knock out provincial championship game and an All Ireland group stage game.

The GAA system can be strange at times. Sometimes Division 1A is the same as Division 1B and sometimes Division 1B is really Division 2.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 352 - 03/10/2024 16:44:58    2572928

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Replying To brianb:  "The new champions League system could be a taylormade way for football to setup. You could play matches where a match could be both a knock out provincial championship game and an All Ireland group stage game.

The GAA system can be strange at times. Sometimes Division 1A is the same as Division 1B and sometimes Division 1B is really Division 2."
The use of 1B in the hurling league reflects the 'wishful thinking' that there are 12 teams at the top table (soon to be 14, an even bigger delusion).

Re: Champions League - for GAA football, have you seen my two tiers of 16, each playing 12 games, including Prov ties?
It's essentially a Swiss System, where I use group crossover ties, a la rugby's URC 4 groups of 4, for fixture construction.
What do you think - would it work?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2886 - 03/10/2024 18:07:18    2572943

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Replying To omahant:  "UEFA has done a good job with repetitively explaining its new system. I'm not convinced Joe Soap gets it.

If 9 pts earns 24th place and 15 pts earns 8th place - are these cut offs enough to keep the new UCL interesting?"
Ordinary Joe Soap seems happy for now that their favourite teams from across the water get to play 8 different opponents, including two Seed 1s. Early days yet though as only round 2 of 8 have been played so far.
When the Munster and Leinster hurling round robins started with 5 each, noone batted an eyelid about 3 of 5 going on to the next stage. 3 out of 4 has drawn criticism.
I think a lot of the top clubs in the Champions League will prefer to go direct to the Round of 16. Many players are unhappy about the current number of games. Round 8 will tell if they have found the right balance of two thirds going through.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 03/10/2024 18:24:18    2572945

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Replying To brianb:  "The new champions League system could be a taylormade way for football to setup. You could play matches where a match could be both a knock out provincial championship game and an All Ireland group stage game.

The GAA system can be strange at times. Sometimes Division 1A is the same as Division 1B and sometimes Division 1B is really Division 2."
I'm not convinced on doubling games as knockout and regular group games as well. Maybe it could be a hit but I don't see it gaining traction.
Burns seems convinced on the double elimination. He wants a more blunt instrument. If the GAA are going to draw 8 provincial finalists against 8 qualifiers, without any seeding advantage for provincial winners, they should at least guarantee that provincial champions avoid each other in the Round 2A winners round or the Round 2B losers round.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 03/10/2024 18:31:53    2572949

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Replying To legendzxix:  "I'm not convinced on doubling games as knockout and regular group games as well. Maybe it could be a hit but I don't see it gaining traction.
Burns seems convinced on the double elimination. He wants a more blunt instrument. If the GAA are going to draw 8 provincial finalists against 8 qualifiers, without any seeding advantage for provincial winners, they should at least guarantee that provincial champions avoid each other in the Round 2A winners round or the Round 2B losers round."
Major failing in the current proposal for 2026 is that a Provincial Finalist who beat 1 Div 4 team has the same status as an Ulster Champion who might have had to win 4 games v top teams.
It also further reduces the prestige of the Provincial Champions and Championships.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1950 - 03/10/2024 20:57:19    2572965

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Ordinary Joe Soap seems happy for now that their favourite teams from across the water get to play 8 different opponents, including two Seed 1s. Early days yet though as only round 2 of 8 have been played so far.
When the Munster and Leinster hurling round robins started with 5 each, noone batted an eyelid about 3 of 5 going on to the next stage. 3 out of 4 has drawn criticism.
I think a lot of the top clubs in the Champions League will prefer to go direct to the Round of 16. Many players are unhappy about the current number of games. Round 8 will tell if they have found the right balance of two thirds going through."
Instead of one two-legged playoff round, I think the UCL would be better with two one-legged rounds - with 12 teams placed 14th to 25th.
Then, three winners join the top 13 in the Round of 16 KO - so better jeopardy in avoiding the higher risk playoff rounds.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2886 - 04/10/2024 03:46:25    2572978

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Replying To omahant:  "Instead of one two-legged playoff round, I think the UCL would be better with two one-legged rounds - with 12 teams placed 14th to 25th.
Then, three winners join the top 13 in the Round of 16 KO - so better jeopardy in avoiding the higher risk playoff rounds."
Too convoluted. UEFA cares about money, ahem, I mean they care about football of course! ;-)

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 04/10/2024 08:35:44    2572988

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Major failing in the current proposal for 2026 is that a Provincial Finalist who beat 1 Div 4 team has the same status as an Ulster Champion who might have had to win 4 games v top teams.
It also further reduces the prestige of the Provincial Champions and Championships."
I agree. There is a flip side though that an unseeded qualifier will be gaining an advantage.
Possibly under the current GAA preference, provincial winners should be guaranteed a home game in round 1. Provincial winners should also avoid each other in Round 2.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 04/10/2024 08:38:19    2572989

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