National Forum

Scoring Difference Hodge Podge

(Oldest Posts First)

http://www.e-pages.dk/irishindependent/2423/article/1887623/41/2/render/?token=52b90d01be5a20bd1809c8a69e6fe666&vl_app_id=ie.irishindependent.areader&vl_app_version=6.3.0&vl_platform=android

Which of the following 4-team group play methods should apply? Presently, competitions have different rules with inconsistencies leading to confusion.

2-TEAM tie, with one-match head-to-head OR three-match scoring difference?
3-TEAM tie, with two-match head-to-head OR three-match scoring difference?

Personally, I think head-to-head should apply in either both or neither case for consistency - it makes no sense to include the result against the 4th team if the top 3 tie, if excluding when only the top 2 (or middle 2) tie.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2973 - 05/09/2023 14:10:53    2503149

Link

Replying To omahant:  "http://www.e-pages.dk/irishindependent/2423/article/1887623/41/2/render/?token=52b90d01be5a20bd1809c8a69e6fe666&vl_app_id=ie.irishindependent.areader&vl_app_version=6.3.0&vl_platform=android

Which of the following 4-team group play methods should apply? Presently, competitions have different rules with inconsistencies leading to confusion.

2-TEAM tie, with one-match head-to-head OR three-match scoring difference?
3-TEAM tie, with two-match head-to-head OR three-match scoring difference?

Personally, I think head-to-head should apply in either both or neither case for consistency - it makes no sense to include the result against the 4th team if the top 3 tie, if excluding when only the top 2 (or middle 2) tie."
Does it really matter as long as competitions know the rules before they start. It isn't changed late on
Why do you obsess about formats/tie breakers so much?

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3695 - 05/09/2023 15:35:37    2503173

Link

Not sure I understand your question as you put it, and the link you give is only opening up part of the first paragraph of that article.

But I'm familiar with the rule it refers to, and in particular with the controversy that has arisen with Sixmilebridge in Clare.

To me, the rule is quite clear and unambiguous, and any appeals or potential appeals are arising mainly from clubs not having paid proper attention when it was introduced.

This is a rule change introduced by Congress this year, so the motion would have been considered by every County Board ahead of Congress, which means every club delegate to County Board should have been properly versed on it. I know from years of experience though that not every club or delegate pays attention to such things when they should, and then end up complaining about them afterwards.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2648 - 05/09/2023 15:52:26    2503182

Link

Replying To Pikeman96:  "Not sure I understand your question as you put it, and the link you give is only opening up part of the first paragraph of that article.

But I'm familiar with the rule it refers to, and in particular with the controversy that has arisen with Sixmilebridge in Clare.

To me, the rule is quite clear and unambiguous, and any appeals or potential appeals are arising mainly from clubs not having paid proper attention when it was introduced.

This is a rule change introduced by Congress this year, so the motion would have been considered by every County Board ahead of Congress, which means every club delegate to County Board should have been properly versed on it. I know from years of experience though that not every club or delegate pays attention to such things when they should, and then end up complaining about them afterwards."
Some GAA Club officers must never read a paper, watch TV, listen to radio, listen at Meetings, know what they are voting for.....

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2017 - 05/09/2023 18:16:37    2503205

Link

My understanding is that not all county boards adopted the "new" head-to-head for 3-team ties - Offaly for example kept the "old" scoring difference across all group games.
I don't understand how teams can enter a competition without knowing what applies.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2973 - 05/09/2023 22:17:43    2503220

Link

Replying To KillingFields:  "Does it really matter as long as competitions know the rules before they start. It isn't changed late on
Why do you obsess about formats/tie breakers so much?"
that's the point. Always going to be difficult to separate three teams. Points difference is clearly the fairest option as head to heads are not consistent or even accurate guide outside of two teams, one who obivously won and one lost, and in case of draw then points difference too!

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3275 - 06/09/2023 08:05:55    2503225

Link

Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Some GAA Club officers must never read a paper, watch TV, listen to radio, listen at Meetings, know what they are voting for....."
I think the issue in some counties is that the change in method was not communicated at the outset. I believe there are some in which clubs were only notified well after the competition had begun.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2223 - 06/09/2023 12:46:18    2503279

Link

Replying To omahant:  "My understanding is that not all county boards adopted the "new" head-to-head for 3-team ties - Offaly for example kept the "old" scoring difference across all group games.
I don't understand how teams can enter a competition without knowing what applies."
The new rules were explained by counties to their club delegates when the revised procedures were introduced. That should have clarified matters prior to the championships. Offaly now have to revise the concluding stages of the Senior B football championship.

thelongridge (Offaly) - Posts: 1879 - 06/09/2023 13:04:41    2503285

Link

Replying To thelongridge:  "The new rules were explained by counties to their club delegates when the revised procedures were introduced. That should have clarified matters prior to the championships. Offaly now have to revise the concluding stages of the Senior B football championship."
What's your opinion of the change - is it an improvement? Personally, I prefer not counting the scoring difference against a group's bottom team, as it can be distortive if that team is much weaker than the others.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2973 - 06/09/2023 14:46:56    2503313

Link

Replying To thelongridge:  "The new rules were explained by counties to their club delegates when the revised procedures were introduced. That should have clarified matters prior to the championships. Offaly now have to revise the concluding stages of the Senior B football championship."
Exactly. All club secretaries are told of the arrangements. If he/she does not understand them then maybe they need to pick someone else!

Clubs only discovering loopholes when on down side does not hold up. We had club in Dublin who threatened legal action over being relegated one time. Even though they knew exactly how relegation would be determined before a ball was kicked.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3275 - 06/09/2023 14:50:35    2503316

Link

Club secretaries must from on trees where some lads live. Fair to say lads on here not prominent in any club

Claretandblue (Westmeath) - Posts: 1967 - 06/09/2023 15:13:13    2503326

Link

1. This is peak GAA, to paraphrase someone over in Twitter a while back. The rules got changed and someone couldn't keep up, and suddenly it's a travesty. A year or two back, UEFA got rid of the away goals rule for two-legged knockout ties and head-to-head tiebreakers within a group. It was an item in the sports news online and on the radio. Now, can you imagine if, after the rule change, a team drew 1-1 away and 0-0 at home and then got beaten in extra time, and then tried to object cos they would have qualified under the old rule? They'd have been laughed out of the boardroom.

South Africa thought they'd qualified for the 2012 Africa Cup of Nations following a three-way tie at the top of their qualifying group. They thought they were on top thanks to goal difference, and even played for a draw in the closing stages, but the tie breaker was points in the games between the concerned teams, and South Africa needed to win and didn't know it. The whole country celebrated and even the president got involved. After the truth sunk in, the South African FA lodged an appeal, which prompted the sports minister to slam the South African FA and call the whole thing a "national disgrace". The appeal was dropped and everyone had egg on their faces. Someone didn't do their homework.

Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1126 - 06/09/2023 16:02:08    2503339

Link

2. I mentioned in my first post that UEFA's scrapping of the away goals rule was widely publicised at the time. I don't remember a lot of publicity about the head-to-head rule being extended to 3 or more teams at Annual Congress. While I don't feel that would get Sixmilebridge off the hook, it's an important consideration. Also, I notice from the Hogan Stand article about Sixmilebridge's calamity that "Cork will continue to use the old scoring difference rule - which applies if two or more teams finish level on points - in all championship group matches this year". Does that mean that different counties can choose whether this new tiebreaker rule applies to their championship? Did Cork explicitly announce that they were opting out? Did Clare make any sort of announcement? Did they even need to?

Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1126 - 06/09/2023 16:04:36    2503340

Link

3. Technicalities aside, I think it's a good rule change. It makes tie breaking consistent. Imagine being on level points with two teams, both of which you've beaten. You'd finish ahead of both of them on individual head to head, so logically you should place ahead of them if all three of you are lumped together on the same points. The rule should be either one or the other, not a mix of both.

Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1126 - 06/09/2023 16:04:57    2503341

Link

Replying To Tacaí Liatroma:  "2. I mentioned in my first post that UEFA's scrapping of the away goals rule was widely publicised at the time. I don't remember a lot of publicity about the head-to-head rule being extended to 3 or more teams at Annual Congress. While I don't feel that would get Sixmilebridge off the hook, it's an important consideration. Also, I notice from the Hogan Stand article about Sixmilebridge's calamity that "Cork will continue to use the old scoring difference rule - which applies if two or more teams finish level on points - in all championship group matches this year". Does that mean that different counties can choose whether this new tiebreaker rule applies to their championship? Did Cork explicitly announce that they were opting out? Did Clare make any sort of announcement? Did they even need to?"
The rule in the general Rule Book allows counties to make other provisions in their bye-laws or competition regulations, if they still wish to use a different system, such as simple points difference no matter how many teams are tied.

If you or anyone else wants to look it up, it's rule 6.21(5)(c) on page 96 -
https://www.gaa.ie/api/pdfs/image/upload/wqyurc9ptfa4hto2ypby.pdf
link

On the other point, strictly speaking, counties don't "need" to make an announcement, though it would of course be good practice to ensure everyone is informed of the situation before it becomes an issue. In fairness to our County Board here in Wexford, they did a fairly good job on it as the closing games of the group stage of our hurling championship approached, with a detailed email to clubs and even a statement on the website and posts on social media so that supporters would know about it too.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2648 - 06/09/2023 16:31:43    2503349

Link

Replying To Pikeman96:  "
Replying To Tacaí Liatroma:  "2. I mentioned in my first post that UEFA's scrapping of the away goals rule was widely publicised at the time. I don't remember a lot of publicity about the head-to-head rule being extended to 3 or more teams at Annual Congress. While I don't feel that would get Sixmilebridge off the hook, it's an important consideration. Also, I notice from the Hogan Stand article about Sixmilebridge's calamity that "Cork will continue to use the old scoring difference rule - which applies if two or more teams finish level on points - in all championship group matches this year". Does that mean that different counties can choose whether this new tiebreaker rule applies to their championship? Did Cork explicitly announce that they were opting out? Did Clare make any sort of announcement? Did they even need to?"
The rule in the general Rule Book allows counties to make other provisions in their bye-laws or competition regulations, if they still wish to use a different system, such as simple points difference no matter how many teams are tied.

If you or anyone else wants to look it up, it's rule 6.21(5)(c) on page 96 -
https://www.gaa.ie/api/pdfs/image/upload/wqyurc9ptfa4hto2ypby.pdf
link

On the other point, strictly speaking, counties don't "need" to make an announcement, though it would of course be good practice to ensure everyone is informed of the situation before it becomes an issue. In fairness to our County Board here in Wexford, they did a fairly good job on it as the closing games of the group stage of our hurling championship approached, with a detailed email to clubs and even a statement on the website and posts on social media so that supporters would know about it too."
If counties can use a bye law to run their championships, despite a change in the qualification rules where teams are tied, as in the recent amendment at Congress, why introduce a new rule?

thelongridge (Offaly) - Posts: 1879 - 06/09/2023 21:56:06    2503374

Link

Replying To BarneyGrant:  "Exactly. All club secretaries are told of the arrangements. If he/she does not understand them then maybe they need to pick someone else!

Clubs only discovering loopholes when on down side does not hold up. We had club in Dublin who threatened legal action over being relegated one time. Even though they knew exactly how relegation would be determined before a ball was kicked."
Absolutely agree its about if teams knew the arrangements. The rules no matter how applied across counties is a different problem. If teams have not objected to competition rules BEFORE games played they should have no come back after round robin places decided.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4946 - 06/09/2023 22:24:23    2503376

Link

@thelongridge - it's basically to allow County Boards to retain a degree of autonomy, in circumstances where them doing something different wouldn't have any immediate or significant impact on the games as a whole. There are several examples of this in the Rule Book, with probably the biggest one being the whole issue of club catchment areas ("parish rule").

What the Rule Book is basically saying is "here's what we think is the best rule, and it's the one you'll use if you don't come up with something different yourself. But you're still free to come up with something different if you want to."

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2648 - 07/09/2023 11:37:28    2503404

Link