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Replying To WanPintWin: "Messi deserves a huge amount of credit for such a career, in terms of quality and longevity.
In my opinion, he's the best footballer I've ever seen, and by a decent distance.
He's very popular with neutrals because of what he's done on the football pitch for over 15 years.
What he has achieved is on a completely different level to Neymar in terms of goals, assists, trophies won and performances in big games.
The players you mentioned are all great, no doubt, but there are different levels of greatness.
All players are human, and I pay little attention to what they do off the pitch, unless they're breaking the law or behaving terribly.
For a man of 35, his performances were outstanding. Aside from his penalties, he scored the breakthrough goal in a tense must-win match against Mexico, broke the deadlock in their first knockout match and of course scored a crucial goal in extra-time in the final. He also created a number of goals throughout the tournament.
Mbappe was brilliant for the last 10 minutes of normal time and continued to threaten in extra-time. He's an excellent young player who could go on to be one of the all-time greats." A fair and balanced post.
Happy new year.
supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2907 - 03/01/2023 09:50:33
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Replying To WanPintWin: "Messi deserves a huge amount of credit for such a career, in terms of quality and longevity.
In my opinion, he's the best footballer I've ever seen, and by a decent distance.
He's very popular with neutrals because of what he's done on the football pitch for over 15 years.
What he has achieved is on a completely different level to Neymar in terms of goals, assists, trophies won and performances in big games.
The players you mentioned are all great, no doubt, but there are different levels of greatness.
All players are human, and I pay little attention to what they do off the pitch, unless they're breaking the law or behaving terribly.
For a man of 35, his performances were outstanding. Aside from his penalties, he scored the breakthrough goal in a tense must-win match against Mexico, broke the deadlock in their first knockout match and of course scored a crucial goal in extra-time in the final. He also created a number of goals throughout the tournament.
Mbappe was brilliant for the last 10 minutes of normal time and continued to threaten in extra-time. He's an excellent young player who could go on to be one of the all-time greats." The best soccer players I have seen in my lifetime:
1. Pele
2. Diego Maradona
3. Lionel Messi
4. George Best
5. Johan Cruyff
6. Zinedine Zidane
7. Kylia Mbappe
8. Franz Beckenbauer
9. Eusabio
10. Michel Platini
11. Luka Modric
12. Christiano Ronaldo
Why have I Pele at number 1?
* He was a fantastic all-round player who could do everything.
* Skill / Control / Pace / Power / Balance / 2 Footed / Heading Ability
* Goal scorer supreme
* Team player
* Did unorthodox audacious things. (Even his misses were special! Check out his dummy on the Uruguay goalkeeper and his audacious lob from over the half-way line against Czechoslovakia at the 1979 World Cup as well as the fantastic save by Gordan Banks against England).
* Genuine sportsman who did not try to con the referees.
* Played on worse pitches with a heavy leather ball and did not get the same protection from referees/var. Injured at the 1962 World Cup and kicked off the pitch by at the 1966 World Cup by Portugal.
* The only winner of 3 World Cup medals (The first at just 17)
* Did a lot of good work outside the game.
* On a personal level, really got me interested in sport while watching the 1970 World Cup as a young kid on a terrible black & white TV.
Why have I Ronaldo at the Bottom?
* Totally self-obsessed / Not a team player
* Very talented player who played at the top level, but was surrounded by top level players while at his peak (Manchester United / Real Madrid) which allowed him to play his own selfish game.
* Not a true sportsman. Tried to con the referee and tends to fake injury. Walked off before full time for Manchester United when an unused substitute. Did not congratulate the fantastic players from Morocco when they beat Portugal at the recent World Cup.
* Not too concerned about human rights while taking the cash to play in Saudi Arabia - similar to David Beckham (How much money do they really need?)
* Does not respect his managers and puts himself before the team ethic.
letsgetgoing (Roscommon) - Posts: 492 - 03/01/2023 10:16:30
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Replying To letsgetgoing: "The best soccer players I have seen in my lifetime:
1. Pele
2. Diego Maradona
3. Lionel Messi
4. George Best
5. Johan Cruyff
6. Zinedine Zidane
7. Kylia Mbappe
8. Franz Beckenbauer
9. Eusabio
10. Michel Platini
11. Luka Modric
12. Christiano Ronaldo
Why have I Pele at number 1?
* He was a fantastic all-round player who could do everything.
* Skill / Control / Pace / Power / Balance / 2 Footed / Heading Ability
* Goal scorer supreme
* Team player
* Did unorthodox audacious things. (Even his misses were special! Check out his dummy on the Uruguay goalkeeper and his audacious lob from over the half-way line against Czechoslovakia at the 1979 World Cup as well as the fantastic save by Gordan Banks against England).
* Genuine sportsman who did not try to con the referees.
* Played on worse pitches with a heavy leather ball and did not get the same protection from referees/var. Injured at the 1962 World Cup and kicked off the pitch by at the 1966 World Cup by Portugal.
* The only winner of 3 World Cup medals (The first at just 17)
* Did a lot of good work outside the game.
* On a personal level, really got me interested in sport while watching the 1970 World Cup as a young kid on a terrible black & white TV.
Why have I Ronaldo at the Bottom?
* Totally self-obsessed / Not a team player
* Very talented player who played at the top level, but was surrounded by top level players while at his peak (Manchester United / Real Madrid) which allowed him to play his own selfish game.
* Not a true sportsman. Tried to con the referee and tends to fake injury. Walked off before full time for Manchester United when an unused substitute. Did not congratulate the fantastic players from Morocco when they beat Portugal at the recent World Cup.
* Not too concerned about human rights while taking the cash to play in Saudi Arabia - similar to David Beckham (How much money do they really need?)
* Does not respect his managers and puts himself before the team ethic." Messi did all the things you've accused Ronaldo of at barca
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2625 - 03/01/2023 11:51:32
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Replying To letsgetgoing: "The best soccer players I have seen in my lifetime:
1. Pele
2. Diego Maradona
3. Lionel Messi
4. George Best
5. Johan Cruyff
6. Zinedine Zidane
7. Kylia Mbappe
8. Franz Beckenbauer
9. Eusabio
10. Michel Platini
11. Luka Modric
12. Christiano Ronaldo
Why have I Pele at number 1?
* He was a fantastic all-round player who could do everything.
* Skill / Control / Pace / Power / Balance / 2 Footed / Heading Ability
* Goal scorer supreme
* Team player
* Did unorthodox audacious things. (Even his misses were special! Check out his dummy on the Uruguay goalkeeper and his audacious lob from over the half-way line against Czechoslovakia at the 1979 World Cup as well as the fantastic save by Gordan Banks against England).
* Genuine sportsman who did not try to con the referees.
* Played on worse pitches with a heavy leather ball and did not get the same protection from referees/var. Injured at the 1962 World Cup and kicked off the pitch by at the 1966 World Cup by Portugal.
* The only winner of 3 World Cup medals (The first at just 17)
* Did a lot of good work outside the game.
* On a personal level, really got me interested in sport while watching the 1970 World Cup as a young kid on a terrible black & white TV.
Why have I Ronaldo at the Bottom?
* Totally self-obsessed / Not a team player
* Very talented player who played at the top level, but was surrounded by top level players while at his peak (Manchester United / Real Madrid) which allowed him to play his own selfish game.
* Not a true sportsman. Tried to con the referee and tends to fake injury. Walked off before full time for Manchester United when an unused substitute. Did not congratulate the fantastic players from Morocco when they beat Portugal at the recent World Cup.
* Not too concerned about human rights while taking the cash to play in Saudi Arabia - similar to David Beckham (How much money do they really need?)
* Does not respect his managers and puts himself before the team ethic." "The best soccer players I have seen in my lifetime:
1. Pele"
How often did you see Pele play?
Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2446 - 03/01/2023 12:08:38
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Replying To letsgetgoing: "The best soccer players I have seen in my lifetime:
1. Pele
2. Diego Maradona
3. Lionel Messi
4. George Best
5. Johan Cruyff
6. Zinedine Zidane
7. Kylia Mbappe
8. Franz Beckenbauer
9. Eusabio
10. Michel Platini
11. Luka Modric
12. Christiano Ronaldo
Why have I Pele at number 1?
* He was a fantastic all-round player who could do everything.
* Skill / Control / Pace / Power / Balance / 2 Footed / Heading Ability
* Goal scorer supreme
* Team player
* Did unorthodox audacious things. (Even his misses were special! Check out his dummy on the Uruguay goalkeeper and his audacious lob from over the half-way line against Czechoslovakia at the 1979 World Cup as well as the fantastic save by Gordan Banks against England).
* Genuine sportsman who did not try to con the referees.
* Played on worse pitches with a heavy leather ball and did not get the same protection from referees/var. Injured at the 1962 World Cup and kicked off the pitch by at the 1966 World Cup by Portugal.
* The only winner of 3 World Cup medals (The first at just 17)
* Did a lot of good work outside the game.
* On a personal level, really got me interested in sport while watching the 1970 World Cup as a young kid on a terrible black & white TV.
Why have I Ronaldo at the Bottom?
* Totally self-obsessed / Not a team player
* Very talented player who played at the top level, but was surrounded by top level players while at his peak (Manchester United / Real Madrid) which allowed him to play his own selfish game.
* Not a true sportsman. Tried to con the referee and tends to fake injury. Walked off before full time for Manchester United when an unused substitute. Did not congratulate the fantastic players from Morocco when they beat Portugal at the recent World Cup.
* Not too concerned about human rights while taking the cash to play in Saudi Arabia - similar to David Beckham (How much money do they really need?)
* Does not respect his managers and puts himself before the team ethic." I understand its all about opinion and that's where we are at, Ronaldo's positives far out weigh his couple of negatives if you can call them that, I would call it his body language that is sensationalized by the hungry media, admittedly he is not perfect, sure it is only you and myself that is perfect.?? Beats me why you have Ronaldo included at all if he ticks all those boxes.
Personally I would site Ronaldo at 3 or 4 in the world. With all due respects to George Best and no doubt he was an exciting player, exciting yes but great no, why, because he was capped 37 times for N I between 1964 / 1977, a combination of the team performance and his lack of fitness meant he never played in the finals of a major tournament.
Check out Ronaldo's CV and you will see he played in 5 world cup tournaments he scored in all 5. His C V is quiet respectful and compilatory towards him.
supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2907 - 03/01/2023 12:51:00
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Replying To Cockney_Cat: ""The best soccer players I have seen in my lifetime:
1. Pele"
How often did you see Pele play?" I first saw Pele play (live on TV) in the 1966 World Cup. I watched every minute of Brazil's matches at the 1970 World Cup and was amazed at the quality of their football. (Pele, Gerson, Rivelino, Toastao, Jairzinho, Carlos Alberto etc). I have also watched additional stuff on TV & YouTube over the years.
You have to take into consideration that I was only a young fellow in late 1960's / early 1970's and the cost of air travel to matches was astronomical. Money was very hard to come-by in the 60's & 70's, so to see him play live was never really an option, unfortunately.
I do not expect everyone to agree with me about Pele or the other players on my list. That is what forum is about, giving your personal opinion on things and generating some healthy debate.
Happy New Year to yourself and to all The Hogan Stand Forum users.
letsgetgoing (Roscommon) - Posts: 492 - 03/01/2023 13:09:48
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Replying To supersub15: "I understand its all about opinion and that's where we are at, Ronaldo's positives far out weigh his couple of negatives if you can call them that, I would call it his body language that is sensationalized by the hungry media, admittedly he is not perfect, sure it is only you and myself that is perfect.?? Beats me why you have Ronaldo included at all if he ticks all those boxes.
Personally I would site Ronaldo at 3 or 4 in the world. With all due respects to George Best and no doubt he was an exciting player, exciting yes but great no, why, because he was capped 37 times for N I between 1964 / 1977, a combination of the team performance and his lack of fitness meant he never played in the finals of a major tournament.
Check out Ronaldo's CV and you will see he played in 5 world cup tournaments he scored in all 5. His C V is quiet respectful and compilatory towards him." "With all due respects to George Best and no doubt he was an exciting player, exciting yes but great no, why, because he was capped 37 times for N I between 1964 / 1977, a combination of the team performance and his lack of fitness meant he never played in the finals of a major tournament."
His football career was effectively over by the time he was 26 years old, mainly due to his alcoholism.
Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2446 - 03/01/2023 13:27:40
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Replying To Cockney_Cat: ""With all due respects to George Best and no doubt he was an exciting player, exciting yes but great no, why, because he was capped 37 times for N I between 1964 / 1977, a combination of the team performance and his lack of fitness meant he never played in the finals of a major tournament."
His football career was effectively over by the time he was 26 years old, mainly due to his alcoholism." Yes, it's a terrible pity and because of that he was then never in with a chance of achieving world greatness. Ronaldo for #4
supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2907 - 03/01/2023 13:46:53
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Replying To Cockney_Cat: ""With all due respects to George Best and no doubt he was an exciting player, exciting yes but great no, why, because he was capped 37 times for N I between 1964 / 1977, a combination of the team performance and his lack of fitness meant he never played in the finals of a major tournament."
His football career was effectively over by the time he was 26 years old, mainly due to his alcoholism." I accept 100% Cockney Cat that George Best had a particular likeness for Miss World's, alcohol and nightclubs. However it would be interesting to see how the modern players would cope with having to play in 4" of muck (terrible pitches) while given very limited protection from the referees and up against Norman Hunter (Leeds), Tommy Smith (Liverpool) and Chopper Harris (Chelsea)?
Different times, different conditions/perspectives so it is very hard to be definitive on this historical soccer analysis. Just a matter of different opinions. As long as people justify their opinions that is OK with me, which in fairness you have done.
letsgetgoing (Roscommon) - Posts: 492 - 03/01/2023 16:35:09
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Replying To letsgetgoing: "I accept 100% Cockney Cat that George Best had a particular likeness for Miss World's, alcohol and nightclubs. However it would be interesting to see how the modern players would cope with having to play in 4" of muck (terrible pitches) while given very limited protection from the referees and up against Norman Hunter (Leeds), Tommy Smith (Liverpool) and Chopper Harris (Chelsea)?
Different times, different conditions/perspectives so it is very hard to be definitive on this historical soccer analysis. Just a matter of different opinions. As long as people justify their opinions that is OK with me, which in fairness you have done." I wasn't giving my opinion, I was stating a fact.
Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2446 - 03/01/2023 17:14:03
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Replying To letsgetgoing: "I accept 100% Cockney Cat that George Best had a particular likeness for Miss World's, alcohol and nightclubs. However it would be interesting to see how the modern players would cope with having to play in 4" of muck (terrible pitches) while given very limited protection from the referees and up against Norman Hunter (Leeds), Tommy Smith (Liverpool) and Chopper Harris (Chelsea)?
Different times, different conditions/perspectives so it is very hard to be definitive on this historical soccer analysis. Just a matter of different opinions. As long as people justify their opinions that is OK with me, which in fairness you have done." Growing up where he did he was always likely to be seduced by the fame and bright lights. He enjoyed his life. Fair play to him!
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11725 - 03/01/2023 20:27:57
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Outrageous darts last night and the beat leg ever witnessed on live tv. Michael Smith has finally done it.
yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11227 - 04/01/2023 07:45:55
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Replying To yew_tree: "Outrageous darts last night and the beat leg ever witnessed on live tv. Michael Smith has finally done it." That leg was like an out of body experience, delighted to see Smith finally get his hands on the trophy, nerves of steel to play at that level.
dolfos (Longford) - Posts: 109 - 04/01/2023 09:33:42
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These GOAT discussions are tiresome at this stage. It is impossible to compare players from different eras and definitively state one is better than the other. I know that Pele, Cruyff and Maradona were absolutely outstanding players based on what I've read and what I've seen of them from old footage. From my own time watching football, these would be the top 10 I've seen (in no particular order)
Ronaldo Nazario
Cristiano Ronaldo
Lionel Messi
Zinedine Zidane
Ronaldinho
Roberto Baggio
Kyllian Mbappe
Thierry Henry
Lothar Matthaus
Paolo Maldini
Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9115 - 04/01/2023 09:37:48
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Replying To Cockney_Cat: "I wasn't giving my opinion, I was stating a fact." How is it a fact that George best wasn't great?
Most of the world would disagree.
I'm terms of talent he was amazing and almost reinvented the skills of the game ahead of his time.
Although he didn't really have6a prime, largely down to his own poor choices as you've outlined.
He's a bit like Ali or Tyson in boxing. Amazing talents who achieved great things but for one reason or another, weren't at their best when they should have been, so we'll never really know how good they actually were.
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2625 - 04/01/2023 09:44:14
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Replying To Lockjaw: "These GOAT discussions are tiresome at this stage. It is impossible to compare players from different eras and definitively state one is better than the other. I know that Pele, Cruyff and Maradona were absolutely outstanding players based on what I've read and what I've seen of them from old footage. From my own time watching football, these would be the top 10 I've seen (in no particular order)
Ronaldo Nazario
Cristiano Ronaldo
Lionel Messi
Zinedine Zidane
Ronaldinho
Roberto Baggio
Kyllian Mbappe
Thierry Henry
Lothar Matthaus
Paolo Maldini" I can't take that seriously if you've omitted Gary Breen.
Not sure what you're dreaming of but I know where I stand
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2625 - 04/01/2023 09:51:08
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I never said he wasn't great.
Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2446 - 04/01/2023 10:18:52
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Replying To Doylerwex: "How is it a fact that George best wasn't great?
Most of the world would disagree.
I'm terms of talent he was amazing and almost reinvented the skills of the game ahead of his time.
Although he didn't really have6a prime, largely down to his own poor choices as you've outlined.
He's a bit like Ali or Tyson in boxing. Amazing talents who achieved great things but for one reason or another, weren't at their best when they should have been, so we'll never really know how good they actually were." I never said he wasn't great.
Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2446 - 04/01/2023 10:19:56
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Replying To Doylerwex: "I can't take that seriously if you've omitted Gary Breen.
Not sure what you're dreaming of but I know where I stand" Gary Doherty is another shameful ommission. I am going to the bold corner to have a good long think.
Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9115 - 04/01/2023 11:02:53
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Replying To Doylerwex: "How is it a fact that George best wasn't great?
Most of the world would disagree.
I'm terms of talent he was amazing and almost reinvented the skills of the game ahead of his time.
Although he didn't really have6a prime, largely down to his own poor choices as you've outlined.
He's a bit like Ali or Tyson in boxing. Amazing talents who achieved great things but for one reason or another, weren't at their best when they should have been, so we'll never really know how good they actually were." Hang on, are you saying we'll never know how good Ali and Tyson were?
Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12115 - 04/01/2023 12:19:48
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